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ATD 2013 - Trading thread

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Old
02-11-2013, 04:54 PM
  #251
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoneberg View Post
I'm not sure what to think of it either. T
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
I have no clue if this is a vetoable trade...
Well, that is why Sturminator has been pushing for a hard rule to ban this kind of trade. But unfortunately, we don't have one, so let's try to evaluate it on its merits...

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Old
02-11-2013, 05:06 PM
  #252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Engine View Post
vanislander and I submit for approval:

to Yekaterinburg: 383 + 511
to Hershey: 353 + 800
In terms of value, the deal is fine. A jump from the bottom to the top of the 12th round can make a meaningful difference in value, which I think is roughly equal to the difference between a 16th rounder and a spare. VanI likes collecting garbage time picks and "introducing" new players to the ATD, which serves its purposes, I suppose. This deal is ok, IMO.

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02-11-2013, 05:17 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
In terms of value, the deal is fine. A jump from the bottom to the top of the 12th round can make a meaningful difference in value, which I think is roughly equal to the difference between a 16th rounder and a spare. VanI likes collecting garbage time picks and "introducing" new players to the ATD, which serves its purposes, I suppose. This deal is ok, IMO.
After my first though of "Why?" my second thought was that it was probably okay, but I wanted to get more opinions first.

I guess we can give it more time to see if anyone raises an objection; if not, I guess the trade goes through.

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02-11-2013, 05:28 PM
  #254
Hawkman
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
... In exchange for giving away Round 16 pick (a bottom pairing defenseman or elite 4th liner) for nothing.
Exactly. A Round 16 pick for nothing, also known as the last pick in the draft. It's so ridiculous.

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02-11-2013, 05:31 PM
  #255
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Exactly. A Round 16 pick for nothing, also known as the last pick in the draft. It's so ridiculous.
Here's the draft list from last time. Was the difference between Round 16 and Round 25 significantly larger than the beginning of Round 12 and the end of Round 12?

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1125499

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02-11-2013, 06:07 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Here's the draft list from last time. Was the difference between Round 16 and Round 25 significantly larger than the beginning of Round 12 and the end of Round 12?

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1125499
I actually do think it was. I don't see a huge difference in the level of talent from 353 to 383 (and even down to about 400). That's your low end second liners/great 3rd liners/4th defenseman level. And pretty much all of them are. Is there a big difference in Don Marshall to Bob Nevin? Not really. Is there a big difference in Ulf Samuelsson to Glen Harmon? Not really. Don Luce and Dirk Graham? Not particularly. Mostly it's that kind of gap in the thirty picks in that range.

Is there a large difference in Bernie Nicholls in comparison to Michal Handzus? Uh...yeah. Rogie Vachon to Kelly Hrudey? Yeah. Zhitnik compared to Bilyaletdinov? Yeah.

I see a fairly big difference in value here.

(Also, I honestly think the only way to do this is to make sure everyone knows what kind of value we're talking about here. That's why I named players. I think it's a necessary evil in the trade thread to be able to do that, especially when we're talking about selections that aren't particularly imminent).

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02-11-2013, 06:15 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
I actually do think it was. I don't see a huge difference in the level of talent from 353 to 383 (and even down to about 400). That's your low end second liners/great 3rd liners/4th defenseman level. And pretty much all of them are. Is there a big difference in Don Marshall to Bob Nevin? Not really. Is there a big difference in Ulf Samuelsson to Glen Harmon? Not really. Don Luce and Dirk Graham? Not particularly. Mostly it's that kind of gap in the thirty picks in that range.

Is there a large difference in Bernie Nicholls in comparison to Michal Handzus? Uh...yeah. Rogie Vachon to Kelly Hrudey? Yeah. Zhitnik compared to Bilyaletdinov? Yeah.

I see a fairly big difference in value here.

(Also, I honestly think the only way to do this is to make sure everyone knows what kind of value we're talking about here. That's why I named players. I think it's a necessary evil in the trade thread to be able to do that, especially when we're talking about selections that aren't particularly imminent).
100% total agreement. Very articulately and well put.

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02-11-2013, 06:15 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Here's the draft list from last time. Was the difference between Round 16 and Round 25 significantly larger than the beginning of Round 12 and the end of Round 12?
We feel it is enough as one of our reasons for wanting the trade.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
I see a fairly big difference in value here.
Not enough to shift the balance of power in the league. The trade veto idea was supposed to prevent teams making absurdly one sided deals that threatened the competitive balance of the entire league. Moving up from the 26th round to the 15th isn't going to hand a team the championship. Veto trades because they threaten the chances of the 31 other teams, not because you're feeling one team wins and another losses.

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Old
02-11-2013, 06:17 PM
  #259
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I can see giving a team an extra 16th round pick as the equivalent of handing a team a 2nd #5 defenseman, rather than the normal #5 and #6. Is that vetoable though?

Remember, however much better round 16 players are than round 25 players, they are still going to be role players.

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Old
02-11-2013, 06:19 PM
  #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Engine View Post
vanislander and I submit for approval:

to Yekaterinburg: 383 + 511
to Hershey: 353 + 800
Confirmed.

There are three or four guys who are available around 350 who should not be available around 380ish (guys we have targeted!!!). Hedberg said that the guys available in the 16th round (511) don't excite him any more than those in the 19th-20th round (which would have been our first bench player). We are of the mind that there are legitimate ATD starters available in round 20, one of whom we will profile with a bio.

We have a very indepth plan. We target guys for our picks well in advance of the rounds in which they come up. Johnny Engine made this offer out of the blue and it just happens to cohere with a targeted bunch of three or four guys we would have liked to get one of, except we have no pick close to them (we would have to draft a guy a round early or move up in trade a round, because we have double picks at the end of a snake draft, meaning a huge gap inbetween pick times).


Last edited by VanIslander: 02-11-2013 at 06:25 PM.
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Old
02-11-2013, 06:20 PM
  #261
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We feel it is enough as one of our reasons for wanting the trade.



Not enough to shift the balance of power in the league. The trade veto idea was supposed to prevent teams making absurdly one sided deals that threatened the competitive balance of the entire league. Moving up from the 26th round to the 15th isn't going to hand a team the championship. Veto trades because they threaten the chances of the 31 other teams, not because you're feeling one team wins and another losses.
See that's kind of where I am right now. I'm in between deciding if its vetoable or not. I still haven't made that determination quite yet in my mind. For instance getting someone like Nicholls who is a borderline 1st PP player could definitely make a difference compared to random spare skaters. I'm trying to decide if that's really enough.

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Old
02-11-2013, 06:23 PM
  #262
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Its a bad trade, with a difinitive winner and loser... But I don't think its bad enough to veto

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02-11-2013, 06:27 PM
  #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Confirmed.

There are three or four guys who are available around 350 who should not be available around 380ish (guys we have targeted!!!). Hedberg said that the guys available in the 16th round (511) don't excite him any more than those in the 19th-20th round (which would have been our first bench player). We are of the mind that there are legitimate ATD starters available in round 20, one of whom we will profile with a bio.

We have a very indepth plan. We target guys for our picks well in advance of the rounds in which they come up. Johnny Engine made this offer out of the blue and it just happens to cohere with a targeted bunch of three or four guys we would have liked to get one of, except we have no pick close to them (we would have to draft a guy a round early or move up in trade a round, because we have double picks at the end of a snake draft, meaning a huge gap inbetween pick times).
Okay then. If you say so.

I'll vote that it's fine I guess.

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Old
02-11-2013, 06:39 PM
  #264
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I honestly feel the trade is just taking the piss. Whether it is balanced or not almost seems irrelevant.

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Old
02-11-2013, 07:20 PM
  #265
VanIslander
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
I honestly feel the trade is just taking the piss.
Johnny Engine proposed it. He said he had an "agenda" in doing so. Going to the bathroom?

(The only ones taking a piss are those making a big deal out of this trade deal.)

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Old
02-11-2013, 08:22 PM
  #266
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Anybody want to move up to 259?

I'm looking to move down 20-30 picks and acquire value in the process.

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Old
02-12-2013, 02:56 AM
  #267
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My two cents:

Which players will definitely be there at 353, but have no chance of being available at 383? After pick 200, and especially in the 300+, we see players jump 50+ spots if not more. AT LEAST, if that trade was conditional I could see the point of such a trade at this point in the draft.

... With that said, it is not veto worthy.

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Old
02-12-2013, 11:12 AM
  #268
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Looking to trade down maybe... have 270 coming up... would want to upgrade 319 or 334...

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Old
02-12-2013, 12:19 PM
  #269
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
My two cents:

Which players will definitely be there at 353, but have no chance of being available at 383? After pick 200, and especially in the 300+, we see players jump 50+ spots if not more. AT LEAST, if that trade was conditional I could see the point of such a trade at this point in the draft.

... With that said, it is not veto worthy.
Yeah, it was an incredibly pointless trade from the perspective of VI and Hedberg. I guess we're approving it though.

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Old
02-12-2013, 12:59 PM
  #270
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Yeah, it was an incredibly pointless trade from the perspective of VI and Hedberg. I guess we're approving it though.
There is one specific group of players who I can see targeting with that trade. I dunno if this is actually VanI/Hedberg's goal, but I can see a reason for wanting to make that jump, even a hundred picks beforehand.

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02-12-2013, 03:33 PM
  #271
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Pick 268 is on he block, please PM with offers.

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Old
02-12-2013, 05:36 PM
  #272
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Trade to announce...

To Cincinnati Fireworks (markrander87): 294, 358
To Chicago Shamrocks (Hawkey Town 18): 268, 413

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02-12-2013, 05:45 PM
  #273
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
Trade to announce...

To Cincinnati Fireworks (markrander87): 294, 358
To Chicago Shamrocks (Hawkey Town 18): 268, 413
26 now, then a short wait, then 55 later. I can't see how anyone would have a problem with this.

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02-12-2013, 05:48 PM
  #274
EagleBelfour
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26 now, then a short wait, then 55 later. I can't see how anyone would have a problem with this.
A very fair proposal for both team IMO.

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Old
02-12-2013, 05:50 PM
  #275
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Trade to announce...

To Cincinnati Fireworks (markrander87): 294, 358
To Chicago Shamrocks (Hawkey Town 18): 268, 413
veto

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