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Game #13| Feb. 11, 2013|Flyers at Maple Leafs |(Continuation of GDT)

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Old
02-12-2013, 10:39 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by CSKA1974 View Post
Exactly.
Flyers are not 1-2 players away from winning games. They do not look cohesive, and it's not fixable by a trade or 2.

I beleive, and had stated that many a times, that system and execution as well as putting players in right places in right time is on coaching staff.
Not saying I dont agree with you but if the Flyers were to make a change it would be for a coach with a different coaching philosphy then Lavi. In a shortened season and with just 35 games left I dont think it happens unless they completely fall out of contention. if they want to make a change I would prefer they wait until after the season.

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02-12-2013, 10:46 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
Not saying I dont agree with you but if the Flyers were to make a change it would be for a coach with a different coaching philosphy then Lavi. In a shortened season and with just 35 games left I dont think it happens unless they completely fall out of contention. if they want to make a change I would prefer they wait until after the season.
Eventually the blame has to land on Homer and the axe with it. Can only blame so many coaches and players and go through so many before you get rid of the head guy.

Like I said before this is a poorly designed team. That falls on Homer.

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02-12-2013, 11:02 AM
  #78
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To elaborate, we have zero goalie depth, a barren farm system, a very one dimensional and one sided d group aside from a late 30s Timonen, little winger depth, and were way too reliant on forwards in their second season or way past their prime (Couturier, Schenn, Read, Briere, and Knuble namely). That's really poor team construction. All on Homer.

I'm fine with changing coaches but only if Homer goes too.

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02-12-2013, 11:32 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
I disagree regarding what we could have gotten for JVR. We sold at his lowest possible value. If he had a good month here we could've gotten some value for him at the deadline. Bringing the Schenns together is the x-factor in it I guess, but that motive didn't really do it for me. I guess there's no sense getting myself all annoyed about it now. At least Luke is turning out to be a decent D-man.

I appreciate your point regarding team needs, but I would disagree that I failed to recognize it. I just have a different philosophy I suppose. You start to tailor your trade to team needs when youre gearing up for title contention. When you're still a player or two away you don't lose trades just to band-aid areas of need. And we don't have a cup calibre team. The D and net minding haven't been bad. Our offense needs a spark, so even with the team argument in mind, you could make a case for having kept JVR. That is a bit misleading though IMO, as I think a good puck mover besides Kimmo is really what we are missing at the moment. When Mezsaros is healthy and paired with a guy like Coburn I think he fills that role well enough, but his health hasn't ever been somehting that can be depended on.

I personally feel that a Schenn-lite player could have been signed in free agency or traded for and we would not have felt the difference as much as we are missing a healthy JVR's game right now. I do recognize this isn't JVR's first streak however, so this line of thinking may bite me in the ass, but I'll just have to see.
You and I see eye to eye on this issue. JVR is a game-changing player at his best, and it was reasonable to expect that he would put it together here if he just stayed healthy for a full season. If JVR continues this, he will be the type of player who never hits free agency because he's too valuable to his team.

Luke Schenn is a decent defenseman and he's exciting to watch because he hits everything that moves, but the offense that he adds is uninspiring and his defensive positioning can be suspect at times too. He got absolutely whipped last night on that JVR goal. He will be a solid top-4 defenseman, but he's not the second coming of Foote, and he's not a legit #1 D or anything close. He's a Robyn Regehr type. And Robyn Regehr types are regularly available on the open market.

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02-12-2013, 11:38 AM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
Not saying I dont agree with you but if the Flyers were to make a change it would be for a coach with a different coaching philosphy then Lavi. In a shortened season and with just 35 games left I dont think it happens unless they completely fall out of contention. if they want to make a change I would prefer they wait until after the season.
I am not advacaiting for an immediate change either. However, if season is lost in the near future, changing the coaching staff might be good. Will give a new coach and the team an opportunity to work together in a relatively stress reduced way.


Last edited by CSKA1974: 02-12-2013 at 12:50 PM.
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02-12-2013, 11:52 AM
  #81
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JVR-Schenn made sense because we had the other Schenn, we needed a d, and people were getting tired of JVR. Sure, he has the higher upside, but we needed a d.

The mistake was putting us into a position where d was that needed and not having a proper team together. Having JVR and not Schenn wouldn't make as much, if any, better.

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02-12-2013, 12:22 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
I personally feel that a Schenn-lite player could have been signed in free agency or traded for and we would not have felt the difference as much as we are missing a healthy JVR's game right now. I do recognize this isn't JVR's first streak however, so this line of thinking may bite me in the ass, but I'll just have to see.
Who says he would've played as well if he was still with us? I don't know, it doesn't leave a sour taste in my mouth seeing him do well, because we've seen what he did here, and based on what he did do here he was seen as a trad. Sure, he could've been given more time, and I guess in hindsight when you look at how bad our forward depth is we probably should've kept him, but what's done is done. But I guess I agree with you that we're missing his healthy game. Even if he is streaky, at least he'd have one of those streaks sometime around now. It might spark the other players, too. But oh well, I'm still happy with the trade, because Schenn looks good out there, and you can't wait forever with players.

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02-12-2013, 12:50 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by CSKA1974 View Post
I am not advacaiting for an immediate change either. However, if season is lost in the near future, changing the coaching staff might be good. Will give a coach and the team work together in a relatively stress reduced way.
As noted in another thread..Lindy Ruff in the hot seat....if Lavi doesn't work out..he could be a good candidate if actually let go by Buffalo although I despise the guy's face....he is still a pretty good coach.

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02-12-2013, 12:58 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by OccupySouthBroadSt View Post
As noted in another thread..Lindy Ruff in the hot seat....if Lavi doesn't work out..he could be a good candidate if actually let go by Buffalo although I despise the guy's face....he is still a pretty good coach.
Not really. His teams routinely underachieve and he gets outcoached pretty often. He's had more than enough talent to win a couple of Stanley Cups there during his tenure, but has none. Well, maybe he should have one, but he doesn't.

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02-12-2013, 12:59 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by CSKA1974 View Post
I am not advacaiting for an immediate change either. However, if season is lost in the near future, changing the coaching staff might be good. Will give a new coach and the team an opportunity to work together in a relatively stress reduced way.
This road trip i think could end up being a make or break on what the team decides to do. if they completely lose the road trip I think Lavi is gone. Even tho like I said I wouldnt agree with it. Who takes over short term? Berube? Paddock? does that solve the problem with the coaching staff? I am not sure. I brought him up a couple weeks ago and if they make a change I hope they consiter Rick Tocchet.

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02-12-2013, 01:04 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
Not really. His teams routinely underachieve and he gets outcoached pretty often. He's had more than enough talent to win a couple of Stanley Cups there during his tenure, but has none. Well, maybe he should have one, but he doesn't.
I agree to an extent..he is pretty good as I noted...a slightly better than mediocre NHL capable coach. Not a solution but there aren't many out there...and I def think he would be better than Tocchet, Berube and even Murray or Paddock.

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02-12-2013, 01:28 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by TheLegendkiller View Post
Doom and gloom.
Perhaps . . . but am I wrong?

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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Schenn is in no way a band-aid. He is a young defenseman with as much an upside as JvR. While JvR is having a good start to this season, we won't know who "won" this trade for years. Yes, if Schenn never gets better the Flyers will "lose" the trade. Thank you for pointing out the obvious.
Therein lies the rub I guess. I don't think Schenn is going to become much more than what he is: which in the context of this trade is a band-aid on a defense that needed.

It's not as if he has some wealth of physical gifts, or is supremely talented with the puck on his stick, and we're just waiting for him to put it together. He is an average NHL athlete (maybe a shade below average), with average puck skills. You can hold out hope that he'll become a much greater player than he is, but I'm not seeing the upside to justify that. He's not a bad player, he just doesn't have enough game to make me not regret this trade if JVR continues to play at a high level like this in Toronto.

To be fair I hated this trade from the get-go. Maybe I'm just in a rush to feel vindicated, but I don't think that's it.

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Originally Posted by Snotbubbles View Post
JvR and Schenn are the same age. They both have room to grow.
Okay? None of us have a crystal ball and at the moment one of them is a much better player.

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Originally Posted by CSKA1974 View Post
In my opinion, they have to be separated completely. Both of them need room and time to work their magic. They can't create it for each other and ther is not enough Simmonds or McGinn to create that for both of them

I understand that Danny is a defencive liability, but he is not a winger.
I wouldn't at all mind seeing this tried for a few games. The Briere Giroux partnership just doesn't look like a great use of the two. They each work best with the puck on their stick. This will be a lot easier to do when Hartnell gets back and there are enough wingers to split them up and still ice two good scoring lines.

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Originally Posted by Ryker View Post
Who says he would've played as well if he was still with us?
Why would we assume that he wouldn't? He had been a very good, productive player every time he was on the ice and healthy here, since a little before the 2010-2011 play-offs. He hadn't been healthy that much last year, but it's not like he hadn't shown the ability to be an excellent player while he was here with us and this is coming out of nowhere with him. As I said earlier, he can be streaky, so I fully acknowledge the chance that this line of thinking looks a little foolish later in the season....I just don't think it will.

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02-12-2013, 01:34 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
Why would we assume that he wouldn't? He had been a very good, productive player every time he was on the ice and healthy here, since a little before the 2010-2011 play-offs. He hadn't been healthy that much last year, but it's not like he hadn't shown the ability to be an excellent player while he was here with us and this is coming out of nowhere with him. As I said earlier, he can be streaky, so I fully acknowledge the chance that this line of thinking looks a little foolish later in the season....I just don't think it will.
Well, I don't know, I think the safest assumption you can go with is one based on history and the historical trends. He's playing in a different environment, with different teammates, with maybe a different role, and with a different motivation after getting traded. These are all factors that could've influenced his production to shoot up. It's also possible he'd be doing even better if he was here, but, again, based on what he has shown in the Flyers uniform, I'm not sure he'd be as good as he is there right now. My point, however, was more that you can't look at traded players and how they're doing on their new teams, and then automatically apply those numbers as missing from the Flyers' ones.

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02-12-2013, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by OccupySouthBroadSt View Post
I agree to an extent..he is pretty good as I noted...a slightly better than mediocre NHL capable coach. Not a solution but there aren't many out there...and I def think he would be better than Tocchet, Berube and even Murray or Paddock.
That I do agree with. I'd probably put him in the 15-20 range as far as coaches rankings go. But yes, he would definitely be better than anyone that the Flyers have in house to replace Lavy should they fire him.

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02-12-2013, 02:54 PM
  #90
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giroux looks realy bad

what happened

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02-12-2013, 03:08 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by OccupySouthBroadSt View Post
As noted in another thread..Lindy Ruff in the hot seat....if Lavi doesn't work out..he could be a good candidate if actually let go by Buffalo although I despise the guy's face....he is still a pretty good coach.
Lindy Ruff is near the top of my list of "Hockey Related People I Hate." It would be very tough to get behind him if he was the coach. Then again, Talbot was on that list before he signed here (though not as high as Lindy Ruff).

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02-12-2013, 03:45 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryker View Post
Well, I don't know, I think the safest assumption you can go with is one based on history and the historical trends. He's playing in a different environment, with different teammates, with maybe a different role, and with a different motivation after getting traded. These are all factors that could've influenced his production to shoot up. It's also possible he'd be doing even better if he was here, but, again, based on what he has shown in the Flyers uniform, I'm not sure he'd be as good as he is there right now. My point, however, was more that you can't look at traded players and how they're doing on their new teams, and then automatically apply those numbers as missing from the Flyers' ones.
I agree with the comment on historical trends. He had a trend of being a very good producer when healthy, with flashes of dominant play while on the Flyers. As for the point about assuming without good reason that his numbers in Toronto would be his numbers here, I agree. But it's not a great leap to think his early season performance in Toronto is just a continuation of his considerable development here before he had all those injuries. A good case can be made for why he could very well have produced here how he is as a Leaf, had he not been traded.

Again, the trades not a disaster or anything yet, And it probably won't be, but I'm pretty confident we're going to end up the losers on this one, and I've been saying that since it happened, not just after this season started.

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02-12-2013, 04:11 PM
  #93
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I was super hyped when the season start, but now I am so frustrated that i actually made an account here to hfboards just because of it

But seriously. The team looks miserable. Only positive mentions I can think of are Bryz, Simmonds and Read. Also to some extent L.Schenn.(McGinn has also played well, but he is but a forced on substitute and we all know that)

Flyers are just underperforming in a large scale. During the whole season I have gotten the feeling that we could possibly score more than 2 goals in the Cats game only.

Our point leader is a 2/3 Line winger thats normally on the 2nd PP.
Our both core playmakers arent contributing anything on 5v5
And our PP is total and utter ASS.

Our defence has good periods of solid play, but defence does not work so that you can beast 60% of the plays and then switch to ****** mode and give a couple of soft goals a game.

It`d be important to get the attack firing on all cylinders, especially the primary scoring = 1st line, Giroux especially, most definetly the powerplay....as frankly - teams rarely win games when their most important attacking units suck major ass and the defence has (too many) lapses of concentration during crucial moments in the game.

Actually I don`t think the team has a shortage of heart/drive/whatever you want to call it, but that the players are trying to force the positive change through the forementioned heart/willpower when the problem is actually the total lack of cohesion and practised team effort. the problem of players skating around aimlessly will not disappear just because everyone makes more effort skate around aimlessly. It just makes the team more frustrated.

As it is at the moment the other teams will be facing a team with only secondary scoring and easy-to-predict one-dimensional defence that is not exactly stacked on talent either.

If we are to win like this, it requires way too many factors to go our way = full capacity of the forementioned secondary scoring, a good day for our defence, lack of heroics from the other teams players, not getting too many penalties... and most importantly Bryz being like a wall. And all this wont happen that often.

If there wont be a clear-cut gearchange on the offense, nothing will change as the offense has potential to be way better whereas the defence not so much.

Graah. At least I got this out of my system. Hoping....actually praying to see some good hockey against the Jets.

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02-12-2013, 04:39 PM
  #94
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Don't you wish weber was on this team
B schenn and couturier for him was a good trade weber would be better for this team then them

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02-12-2013, 04:42 PM
  #95
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Don't you wish weber was on this team
B schenn and couturier for him was a good trade weber would be better for this team then them
1 of the 2 in a deal for him would have been good. Not both of them. Our offense blows already, imagine if we didn't have them. Our depth would have been horrible. That's saying a lot for a team that lacks depth right now.

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