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Old
07-07-2006, 09:19 AM
  #76
Fletch
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Poti's disliked for several reasons...

I think primarily it was beacuse of the expectations set upon him for being acquired for York. That right there was a negative against Poti. He came here billed as an offensemen, and people expected offense out of him. When the offense didn't materialize to a satisfactory degree, his defense and lack of physical play were targeted, as I believe it's been SBoB who's put it best, mostly saying if his offense isn't there, and his defense isn't there, or is OK, then he's no more than an ordinary defenseman and the Rangers can pluck Joel Bouchard out of some AHL team to play instead. And his play became a focus and magnified and nobody cares that his defense inproved marketdly this past season to the point where he may actually be serviceable - because the offense still wasn't there making him a very ordinary defenseman - and an asset was traded for this very ordinary defenseman.

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07-07-2006, 09:24 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
Contrary to popular belief, the defensemen's job is easier with him out there. Much of the play is at the other end, and when play moves towards the Rangers defense, at least a guy like Straka quickly and diligently helped out, and I don't know how many occasions we all were shocked that Jagr too was playing in all three zones for a lot of the season (in a zone of his own).

Somehow, though, while playing with Jagr, neither Poti nor Rozsival racked up the points - they were just beneficiaries of being out there for the '+'.
My point well delivered.

Defensemen do not pich in as per Renney system. In addition, one doesn't have to do it having first line in front. Just keep the puck in and move it from point to point. Then slapshoot. Or pass it to the corner. Keep it simple, youre not a Brian Leetch. The rest is not your job. Leave the complain about low production from D to sport writers.

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07-07-2006, 09:28 AM
  #78
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But Roszival in not HOF material. Only those guys can do it all ( and cost much more). The rest have limitations. You can win without future HOF. We tried to buy HOF players and failed. There is no way back to those times.
Being able to play well is not limited to HOF defensemen. You readily acknolwedge Rozsival's many faults. Then why is it necessary to bring him back? Jagr has enough Czechs here already. If he is such a limited defenseman, why is it necessary to sign him to a multi-year deal? Why not allow a few younger defensemen an opportunity?

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07-07-2006, 09:30 AM
  #79
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My point well delivered.
If you agree with Fletch's post and you acknolwedge that Poti and Rozsival are similar, then why is it necessary to sign Rozsival to a multi-year deal?

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07-07-2006, 09:46 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
I think primarily it was beacuse of the expectations set upon him for being acquired for York. That right there was a negative against Poti. He came here billed as an offensemen, and people expected offense out of him. When the offense didn't materialize to a satisfactory degree, his defense and lack of physical play were targeted, as I believe it's been SBoB who's put it best, mostly saying if his offense isn't there, and his defense isn't there, or is OK, then he's no more than an ordinary defenseman and the Rangers can pluck Joel Bouchard out of some AHL team to play instead. And his play became a focus and magnified and nobody cares that his defense inproved marketdly this past season to the point where he may actually be serviceable - because the offense still wasn't there making him a very ordinary defenseman - and an asset was traded for this very ordinary defenseman.
True. All of this. Let me reply, though, with analogy. The guy picks the model like looking chick at the party and marries her. Sometimes later he divorces her because she doesn't clean, doesn't cook and spend too much money. After that she marries a millionaire that has maid, nanny, pool-boy, butler, etc. He is very happy with her because of her impeccable taste, ability to take care of herself, hard work with numerous charities while spending good amount of time with their own children.

And BTW, we should have kept Bouchard.

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07-07-2006, 09:56 AM
  #81
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If you agree with Fletch's post and you acknolwedge that Poti and Rozsival are similar, then why is it necessary to sign Rozsival to a multi-year deal?
Three words.

Jarg Likes Him.

As far as multi-year contract it is Rozy's desire, not mine. Or may even be his agent's. You know, to get a better commissions.

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07-07-2006, 10:10 AM
  #82
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Three words.

Jarg Likes Him.
Two words: SO WHAT? You cannot allow a player to so dictate the direction of the team that he is suddenly in charge of who goes and who stays. That is no way to run a team. He has more than enough Czechs on the team to feel "comfortable".
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As far as multi-year contract it is Rozy's desire, not mine. Or may even be his agent's. You know, to get a better commissions.
That does not mean that you need to give in. You need to do what is best for the team and a multi-year contract to a mediocre (at best) defenseman is not it.
Or is your assertion that since Jagr likes him, then he will be resigned. And since he wants a multi-year deal, that is what he will get since Jagr wants him to be here. If so, that is utterly frightening that one individual could so dominate the shape and future of an organization, long after he will be gone.

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07-07-2006, 11:15 AM
  #83
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You cannot allow a player to so dictate the direction of the team that he is suddenly in charge of who goes and who stays. That is no way to run a team. He has more than enough Czechs on the team to feel "comfortable". ]
Really? How about Messier doing the same thing with by far less success in his last stint in here.? May by if Mess had it his way in his first tenure and Nemchinov, Zubov and other Russians he liked so much were retained, we wouldn't be so miserable in late 90ies. It MIGHT NOT be the way to run the team, but it the matter of fact now. And it gave us 100 point season while rebuilding was savoured. Keep in mind that Jagr wants to win, not to experiment with various prospects that some fans want to see. I am glad he doesn't oppose the re-build, but he can only support it to the point.

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That does not mean that you need to give in.
I don't disagree with that. I think Jagr doesn't care what Sather has to do to keep Rozy for him. I think he wouldn't mind if Rozy let go once the suitable replacement is found. But since it wasn't, Rozy has to stay for one year at least to see if Jagr is ok with other D. Rozsival is smart enough to understand that. Without Jagr he couldn't get good deal anywhere else. He has to use that leverage to get long term deal. He didn't go to arbitration because it would play into Slats hands: more money for one year deal. Rozy would rather go for less, but long term. He wants to be under contract in case his replacement is excepted by JJ. I think it is still brewing out there and it is hard to tell how will it end, but Rozsival replacement has not been tried, it wasn't approved, it, certainly, cannot be assumed, so he is the lock for next year.


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07-07-2006, 11:33 AM
  #84
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Why blame Mess for the Russians?

Mess was a big fan of Kovalev - so it's not a Russian thing. Also, it was more Campbell that drove out the Russians than Mess.

As for Mess dictating which players come in - that's the GM's problem - I don't think people were ecstatic about it then, and aren't ecstatic about it now. And I wouldn't be so sure Jagr was dictating who was coming to the Rangers last season. I'm sure his voice was heard, but Sather, I believe, put together a team that would be able to come out of the gate fast after the lock-up and hopefully enable him to be flexible towards the end of the season. Specifically, he picked-up guys with similar styles and guys who knew each other knowing that many teams would have rusty players with a lot of turnover and it would take some time for them to create synergies among their players. The Rangers had that from day 1. Sather wasn't looking long-term then and wanted to remain as flexible as possible (hence one-year contracts to Straka, Rucinsky, and Rozsival (who was young, but suspect due to an injury)).

And I'm sure Jagr would live without certain players, just as he's done throughout much of his career (he was separated from Rozsival and Straka before, hadn't played with Malik or Rucinsky, and didn't spend much time with Nylander). He wants to win, I hope, not just have a friend's house to go to on Saturday nights to play poker and drink Czechvar.

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07-07-2006, 11:41 AM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 94now View Post
Three words.

Jarg Likes Him.
I tend to think that if Jagr wanted Rozsival in the lineup, he'd be signed already.

Jagr wants what's best for the team and for him. The more skill you put on his defensive unit, the greater the chances of success for that unit of 5. Even if you're pro-Rozsival, you know there's better candidates for the 1st defensive pairing than he.

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07-07-2006, 12:01 PM
  #86
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Really? Messier doing the same thing with by far less success in his last stint in here.
And that suddenly makes it right or somehow helpfull to the team?
Quote:
It MIGHT NOT be the way to run the team, but it the matter of fact now.
So it is not the right way to run the team, but Jagr is now afforded the same status as Messier was?
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And it gave us 100 point season while rebuilding was savoured.
There are several reasons why last year there was a 100 point run (please don't forget that amongst them is the fact that points now count in a shoot-out), but Rozsival was not one of them.
Quote:
Keep in mind that Jagr wants to win, not to experiment with various prospects that some fans want to see.
If he wants to win some much, wouldn't he want a defense that is not mediocre?
Quote:
I think Jagr doesn't care what Sather has to do to keep Rozy for him.
Why should Jagr be dictating such terms? Are you telling me that Jagr runs the organization now? What if Rozsival wants a 5 year, $20m deal?
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I think he wouldn't mind if Rozy let go once the suitable replacement is found.
It is not hard to replace the most pedestrian of your defensemen.
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But since it wasn't, Rozy has to stay for one year at least to see if Jagr is ok with other D.
It is not that it wasn't, it's that it needs to be seen. And how does the one year correlation correspond to the fact that Rozsival wants a multi-year deal?
Quote:
I think it is still brewing out there and it is hard to tell how will it end, but Rozsival replacement has not been tried, it wasn't approved, it, certainly, cannot be assumed, so he is the lock for next year.
So until Jagr approves a Rozsival replacement, his place on the team is cemented?

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07-07-2006, 01:11 PM
  #87
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So it is not the right way to run the team, but Jagr is now afforded the same status as Messier was?
Exactly. Sather has done it in the past. After all he is the one who traded TGO to LA since Messier was in charge. What could be larger than that?

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If he wants to win some much, wouldn't he want a defense that is not mediocre?
Even Rozy knows that he is mediocre. Yet, Jagr wins with him according to Rozsival's +/- rating.

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Why should Jagr be dictating such terms? Are you telling me that Jagr runs the organization now?
See explanation above regarding Messier. This team is NOTHING without Jagr. ZERO. Null. The playoffs show it could be even negative. If you disagree with it there is no sense to continue to argue.
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It is not hard to replace the most pedestrian of your defensemen.
May be, but why mess with success. Rozsival as i sad before should not and will not play without Jagr. So there is no sense to evaluate him outside that assumption.[

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So until Jagr approves a Rozsival replacement, his place on the team is cemented?
Absolutely. Otherwise he would be signed by other team. Sather gamble with him last summer and won big. He is not going to let him walk, unless Rozy runs away.

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07-07-2006, 01:21 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
I tend to think that if Jagr wanted Rozsival in the lineup, he'd be signed already.

Jagr wants what's best for the team and for him. The more skill you put on his defensive unit, the greater the chances of success for that unit of 5. Even if you're pro-Rozsival, you know there's better candidates for the 1st defensive pairing than he.
Like who?

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07-07-2006, 01:28 PM
  #89
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Exactly. Sather has done it in the past. After all he is the one who traded TGO to LA since Messier was in charge. What could be larger than that?
Are you suggesting that Mess ran Gretzky out of Edmonton?

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07-07-2006, 01:44 PM
  #90
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I always thought...

that the price tag for Gretzky was too big for Edmonton to handle. But if that's suggested, then why not also say that Gretzky ran Messier out of New York after the '97 playoffs?

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07-07-2006, 01:46 PM
  #91
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that the price tag for Gretzky was too big for Edmonton to handle.
That's what I had always known. Plus his wife wanted to go to LA.

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07-07-2006, 01:50 PM
  #92
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that the price tag for Gretzky was too big for Edmonton to handle. But if that's suggested, then why not also say that Gretzky ran Messier out of New York after the '97 playoffs?
Well, the last one is a fact. Although officially the price tag for Messier was too big for Checkett to handle.

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07-07-2006, 01:52 PM
  #93
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Well, the last one is a fact. Although officially the price tag for Messier was too big for Checkett to handle.
Wait, so now Gretz ran Mess out of NY?

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07-07-2006, 01:53 PM
  #94
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I wouldn't say fact...

it's possible that what Smith had said was true - i.e., how much longer do we have to pay for the Cup, as well, I'm sure he didn't want to defer to Mess for personnel moves (which, funny enough, ended up getting him fired). Smith's not good dealing with strong personalities (see Keenan, Muckler, and is the reason why Campbell lasted).

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07-07-2006, 02:03 PM
  #95
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Wait, so now Gretz ran Mess out of NY?
Pushed, not ran. Then Mess pushed Bure and Renney out of Vancouver. Jagr didn't push anybody. That's why his leadership was questioned. It isn't anymore.

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07-07-2006, 02:54 PM
  #96
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Rangers are looking OK...don't underestimate the value of Steve Rucchin and how hard it'll be to replace his presence.Cullen is decent but not worth his 3.1 mill even if he scores 30 goals...why because he's not a banger/FO specialist and doesn't have something that another LW couldn't contribute. As for Center Ice... I'd have to say that the Boost that NYR get by using Cullen on 2nd line over Immonen is slight. A bigger difference would have been if NYR offered that 3.1 mill extra to Rob Blake to play Right Def alongside Tyutin. That would've had a profound effect on both offense(Blake amongst the top in 1-timers by Def) and add some serious size on Def. (Ward costs 2.75+3.1 for Cullen=approx 1 mill less than using Blake+Immonen. The marquee power of having Blake would attract attention away from the forwards a little bit and it would give NYR 3 giant Defenders 6'5 Malik-Rozsival
Tyutin-Blake
Kaspar-Rachunek
That would be much tougher for teams to take. I prefer to let the best youth win their lineup spots w/ their Hustle and energy and skill instead of simply looking at the stats/prior accomplishments of vets that may or may not be worth the Big $ contracts.

Many agents are pointing out that this year was the 1st after a layoff which traditionally inflates revenues/optimism, and that could be a reason why so many long term deals are getting done. Sather is smart to offer only a 2yr deal to Ward who is a solid #4/5 Dman even if he paid a slight premium for him. As for quality of Cullen...nobody would've known his true value more than the Carolina GM which offered 1.8-1.9 mill...Sather outbid the defending champs (who aren't having any cap problems) by $1 million for a 3rd line C.

That could be a bit of a pain if the cap drops in the next few seasons as Cullen's production/value to the team in leadership won't excede what it was in Carolina who just replaced him w/ T.Letowski for $800K!

overall I'd have the lineup look this way

Straka-------------------NY---------JJ

Cullen-Dubinsky/Immonen---------Prucha

Dawes/Hossa------Betts----------Ward

Hollwegg------Moore/Dubinsky----Ortmeyer

Malik-Rachunek

Tyutin-Ward

Ozo----Kaspar

Staal-Richter

Lundqvist
Holt/Weekes

Trade either Rozs/Weekes/Moore in a package for a 2nd round pick which then could land some serious quality in 2o07 Draft or use pick as compensation for a RFA signing.

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07-07-2006, 03:00 PM
  #97
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Like who?
How about Rachuenek?

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07-07-2006, 03:20 PM
  #98
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How about Rachuenek?
May be, but I thought Rachunek is to get Tjutin fear for the job security. At this time he is a dark horse. It will become clear once his re-adjustment to NHL is over.

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07-07-2006, 04:26 PM
  #99
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Rangers are looking OK...don't underestimate the value of Steve Rucchin and how hard it'll be to replace his presence.Cullen is decent but not worth his 3.1 mill even if he scores 30 goals...why because he's not a banger/FO specialist and doesn't have something that another LW couldn't contribute. As for Center Ice... I'd have to say that the Boost that NYR get by using Cullen on 2nd line over Immonen is slight. A bigger difference would have been if NYR offered that 3.1 mill extra to Rob Blake to play Right Def alongside Tyutin. That would've had a profound effect on both offense(Blake amongst the top in 1-timers by Def) and add some serious size on Def. (Ward costs 2.75+3.1 for Cullen=approx 1 mill less than using Blake+Immonen. The marquee power of having Blake would attract attention away from the forwards a little bit and it would give NYR 3 giant Defenders 6'5 Malik-Rozsival
Tyutin-Blake
Kaspar-Rachunek
That would be much tougher for teams to take. I prefer to let the best youth win their lineup spots w/ their Hustle and energy and skill instead of simply looking at the stats/prior accomplishments of vets that may or may not be worth the Big $ contracts.

Many agents are pointing out that this year was the 1st after a layoff which traditionally inflates revenues/optimism, and that could be a reason why so many long term deals are getting done. Sather is smart to offer only a 2yr deal to Ward who is a solid #4/5 Dman even if he paid a slight premium for him. As for quality of Cullen...nobody would've known his true value more than the Carolina GM which offered 1.8-1.9 mill...Sather outbid the defending champs (who aren't having any cap problems) by $1 million for a 3rd line C.

That could be a bit of a pain if the cap drops in the next few seasons as Cullen's production/value to the team in leadership won't excede what it was in Carolina who just replaced him w/ T.Letowski for $800K!

overall I'd have the lineup look this way

Straka-------------------NY---------JJ

Cullen-Dubinsky/Immonen---------Prucha

Dawes/Hossa------Betts----------Ward

Hollwegg------Moore/Dubinsky----Ortmeyer

Malik-Rachunek

Tyutin-Ward

Ozo----Kaspar

Staal-Richter

Lundqvist
Holt/Weekes

Trade either Rozs/Weekes/Moore in a package for a 2nd round pick which then could land some serious quality in 2o07 Draft or use pick as compensation for a RFA signing.
Coupla points:

1) Not that it makes a big difference, but Cullen signed for $2.8MM per. It was Straka who signed for $3.1MM

2) While I agree that's what Rucchin brings in THEORY, it's not what he brought in practice last year. To me (and I would wager most of the posters on this board), he'd lost a lot of what made him effective in Anaheim several years back. Cullen IS an upgrade - regardless of whether you play in at W, C on the 2nd or 3rd line.

3) If a team's offer for one of it's UFAs was always necessarily an accurate measure of his value, then no player would ever change teams, because they'd never get offered more money from other clubs. To say Carolina's offer defines Cullen's worth simply because they had him last year is a specious argument.

4) Cullen has more value to, and is needed more by, the Rangers than Carolina who are dealing with a plethora of extremely strong forwards.

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07-07-2006, 04:43 PM
  #100
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May be, but I thought Rachunek is to get Tjutin fear for the job security. At this time he is a dark horse. It will become clear once his re-adjustment to NHL is over.
Rachunek is a good defenseman, give him a chance. He has a bad rap in his short stint here with the Rangers and deservingly so because of his awful play here.

On a side note: Whatever happens lets see how he does, I watch a lot of Ottawa games, and I didnt have the impressions thats the Senators play hide the weaknesses of Rachunek. He was very solid, and last year had a solid season with Yaroslavl of the RSL.

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