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How good would the Wings be with Semin and Carle?

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Old
02-11-2013, 12:57 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDrake28 View Post
Still wouldn't be good enough to win the Stanley Cup. STL, SJ and Nashville are still to physical for the Wings to win a seven game series against them.

Chicago is just flat-out better than everyone in the league.
Physicality was never the issue. Last year against the Predators the Wings just couldn't score goals. Against SJ the years before then SJ was just better at both ends of the ice.

As for St. Louis - they haven't shown enough to say they're better than anyone. Their depth so far has been a bit of a paper tiger and they have no goaltending. The Wings aren't very good either, but the West so far hasn't really settled in yet.

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02-11-2013, 01:02 PM
  #52
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Still wouldn't be good enough to win the Stanley Cup. STL, SJ and Nashville are still to physical for the Wings to win a seven game series against them.

Chicago is just flat-out better than everyone in the league.
Well, there's only so much turnover you can make at once.
If the Wings aren't going to draft toughness, they need to find a way to get it on the roster.
(The tough players they've drafted just haven't worked out - for the most part)

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02-11-2013, 01:29 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Physicality was never the issue. Last year against the Predators the Wings just couldn't score goals. Against SJ the years before then SJ was just better at both ends of the ice.
Thank God Kenny signed Sammy. Brunner is working out though, can't imagine he's comfortable out there yet either. If they make the playoffs it'll be interesting to see how he does. Not sold on physicality being an issue, they get pushed around by those teams. In a seven game series that takes it's toll.

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As for St. Louis - they haven't shown enough to say they're better than anyone. Their depth so far has been a bit of a paper tiger and they have no goaltending. The Wings aren't very good either, but the West so far hasn't really settled in yet.
Still think Chicago is a cut above everyone else. From the times I have seen their PP it's textbook. Makes you cringe about how awful the Red Wings' PP is.

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02-11-2013, 01:36 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Meditating Guru View Post
**** me, some of you people are getting on my damned nerves with all of this "ZOMG I KNOW EVERYTHING THAT GOES ON BEHIND CLOSED DOORS AND IN OTHER PEOPLES' HEADS LOLOLOL" ********. If you're so great at being a GM and FORCING players to sign in Detroit at massive discounts -- or, ****, AT ALL, -- why aren't you applying for GM jobs? What are you doing posting on message boards claiming that a man with credentials you'll never even dream of sniffing is sitting on his hands doing nothing instead of making the Red Wings THE ULTIMATE CHAMPIONS OF THE WORLD or whatever it is you think they should be?

What's that? You don't have any proof of your claims? Yeah, that's what I thought.
This is pretty much how I feel every time I come into the Wings forum.

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02-11-2013, 01:38 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
Well, there's only so much turnover you can make at once.
If the Wings aren't going to draft toughness, they need to find a way to get it on the roster.
(The tough players they've drafted just haven't worked out - for the most part)
I don't disagree, KH really hasn't done much of anything to really address the Wings' needs. Brunner has been nice. Not terribly strong on the puck but he's RH and loves to shoot so whatever.

The team will be mediocre to good for a couple years. But they draft some big, physical forwards with a relatively high draft pick to go along with the prospects they have and this team could be real good in the future. Especially with Sproul and Ouellet, and Mrazek in net. Can't wait to see what those two will do in Grand Rapids next year.

Either way my original point remains the same; even with Semin and Carle I don't think they'd win the Stanley Cup. I don't care about second round exits.


Last edited by TatarTangle: 02-11-2013 at 01:44 PM.
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Old
02-11-2013, 01:39 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
I'm not too keen on the idea of Semin getting $7M. But the notion that Brunner is better than Semin is a joke.
Despite Semin's rep, he's actually a very good two-way hockey player.
Brunner, despite all the accolades, hasn't show me much other than that he likes to shoot the puck. Until yesterday, I hadn't seen a lick of defense. He's not a poor skater. But he hasn't show the speed that was advertised earlier. He's not good at all on the boards.

Besides... it's not Semin vs Brunner. It's Semin vs Sammy.
Agreed with all of this. I'd be a lot happier with a top 6 of this:

Franzen-Zetterberg-Brunner
Semin-Datsyuk-Filppula

It's not like signing Semin would have cost us spots for Franzen and Brunner. Also, it's ridiculous that the Red Wings think throwing Cleary/Sammy into a top six role is acceptable. Signing Sammy over Semin was a mistake, and Cleary doesn't even belong on the roster.

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02-11-2013, 01:43 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Eternal Sunshine View Post
Oh ok, very fair points. The only serious problem I have with any of Kenny's decisions is that he is signing and extending guys like Samuelsson and Bertuzzi. While Bertuzzi understandably adds size/ an edge to our top 2 lines, Samuelsson seems really unnecessary to me when we have guys like Mursak and Eaves sitting in the pressbox and Nyquist and Tatar more than ready to adjust to the NHL. I understand Samuelsson is a serviceable guy still, but he seems redundant and unneeded, IMO. I can't complain about depth, but it seems like we should've been hard after another Dman instead of forward, even at the time. Of course hindsight is 20/20 and it is easy to say it now, but I felt the same way then, too. At the end of the day Kenny is one of the very best, and I trust his judgement over basically anyone in the entire hockey world. I only have problems with minute parts of the roster, and generally can at least understand why he does the things he does, even if I'm not 100% on board with that decision.
Imo, Samuelsson is not unneeded. He is the scoring ability that is missing from lower lines. He was signed for depth if there's injuries. It just kind of "funny" went that way that he is the guy that is injured.

But if he would be healthy, he would be pushing Cleary out from the 3rd line. Who would not love that? Holland signed him for depth middle6 forward. Maybe because he wasn't sure in what condition Cleary will be. Now we know that he is not in any kind of condition.

Things didn't went like he planned, because Sammy is injured, but still the basic plan was made right. You prepare for injuries, you sign depth. Plain and simple. You have to look at the big picture.

Sammy was also signed to be a possible PP pointman, but Brunner has replaced him there. That wasn't also known at summer how Brunner would pan out. Holland prepared for options, to give Babcock some different tools. Because the plan B worked, that doesn't make Sammy a bad signing.

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Old
02-12-2013, 11:25 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by HockeyGuy1975 View Post
Holland missed out on Suter and Parise, but Semin and Carle were clearly available. He passed. Right now the team is looking decent, but these two additional above-average players would probably have made them SC contenders. That's incredibly frustrating.
Carle at the contract he got is the last thing this team needs. Still mad we didn't take a look at Rozival (Spelling). I know we got Huskins and he's been fine, but would have preferred getting him instead of Cola (who I actually completely forgot we had up until now).

Semin for one year (god that sounds bad) tryout contract would have been nice on Datsyuk's Wings. Still would have loved Ryder or Fleishman for their cap hits the year before, but alas I should stop *****ing.

Franzen-Zetterberg-Brunner
Bertuzzi-Datsyuk-Semin
Nyquist-Filppula-Cleary
Abdelkader-Helm-Tootoo

See how much more dangerous that looks? Or you could move Flip up to the Wing and slide Abby over


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Old
02-12-2013, 11:56 AM
  #59
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Wow, Guru has some issues about people posting opinions on a message board.

I, personally, think this team would be better off if they could have signed Semin instead of Sammy. Buy out Cleary and that's 5.8 million out of 7million of Semin's current salary(pro rated).

Semin is much better than Sammy, and much better than Brunner. Datsyuk is also much better than Eric Staal, and although you cannot guarantee anything, it certainly does seem like a match made in heaven for the two Russians.

But until next year, it's only a 'what if', but yes I think they'd be better with both guys, but not sold on Carle, like most others.

Sorry in advance for posting my opinion.

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Old
02-12-2013, 12:31 PM
  #60
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The ONLY way i take Carle and Semin:

1. We never traded our first for Quincey
2. He doesnt sign that long of a term
3. If we signed Semin, we never signed Samuelsson

That would be the only way i would have signed them. If we signed them, not sure how much better we would be.. one or both could be hurt right now with our luck.

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02-12-2013, 01:10 PM
  #61
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Semin is a very good on the ice player. There is something very fishy about the fact no one seems to want him.

I mean he is good offensively and defensively.

he makes 7Mil a year (little high) but 1 year deals are a good idea for him if he maintains skill level and wants to maximize money. Never seen many players enjoy the thought of 1 year deals.

Something very fishy here. There must be a very good reason we didn't even try to get him.

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02-12-2013, 01:16 PM
  #62
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Wow, Guru has some issues about people posting opinions on a message board.

Sorry in advance for posting my opinion.
LOL, reading is fundamental, bro; you should really try to comprehend my posts before making erroneous statements like that.

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Old
02-12-2013, 01:35 PM
  #63
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Semin gets a bad rap but I don't think signing him would change much. Carle, maybe - for the right price - but Semin not so much since the problem this team has is less scoring goals and more preventing them.

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02-12-2013, 01:48 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by BinCookin View Post
Semin is a very good on the ice player. There is something very fishy about the fact no one seems to want him.

I mean he is good offensively and defensively.

he makes 7Mil a year (little high) but 1 year deals are a good idea for him if he maintains skill level and wants to maximize money. Never seen many players enjoy the thought of 1 year deals.

Something very fishy here. There must be a very good reason we didn't even try to get him.
I'm starting to think there really wasn't a good reason for any team not to sign Semin. It's not just the Wings. Semin's reputation was absolutely eradicated by the media. Nothing about Semin suggested any of the character assassination was warranted. As Canes fans are professing, his defensive game is top notch, and he's the kind of player they've been looking for. It's not Hollands fault. We're all stupid sheeple that will buy into whatever the media tells us time and again. I mean, look at what Jason Arnott had to say about him. Guy comes in from the outside and understood Semin better than anyone on the team. Why no one brought this up is beyond me. This sho\uld have been the be all end all to the question of the enigma that Semin was made out to be. Sadly it was just ignored, and many teams chose to pass on Semin.

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Old
02-12-2013, 02:31 PM
  #65
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problematic players only become problems when signed to problematic contracts.

their is absolutely zero risk to signing a "perceived" problematic player to a one year deal.

their was zero chance datsyuk, zetterberg, kronwall and howard would have walked into KH's office and handed in their pink slips, zero.

their was and remains no risk

KH simply did not want to sign Semin, period.

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02-12-2013, 02:35 PM
  #66
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The problem with TSN's UFA coverage is that there's no news. So then idiots like Pierre McGuire have to make news by saying extremely stupid things.

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02-12-2013, 03:05 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forty View Post
Semin is much better than Sammy, and much better than Brunner. Datsyuk is also much better than Eric Staal, and although you cannot guarantee anything, it certainly does seem like a match made in heaven for the two Russians.
Really hope you weren't one of the people that took issue with Babcock's country mile statement on Zetterberg. Is Datsyuk better? Yes in my opinion, but much better? Not really. They score at similar rates Datsyuk .09 PPGA better in the regular seasn, while Staal scores at a better clip in the playoffs .25 PGGA difference.

For those of you that like to make the argument that Datsyuk's terrible linemates are to blame whenever something isn't happening for him. Staal would have pined for Danny Cleary for most of his career, much less some of the other guys Pavel has played with. In his peak years Staal has never had a Zetterberg or Hossa. This is the first time he actually has some decent talent around him and he is still in the middle/tail end depending on how his form stays of his prime. I think Datsyuk is better, especially in his own zone, but offensively that is a pretty tight contest.

Eric Staal is a very good player in this league still to this day. A cup champion, triple gold member that has accomplished a lot of great things, including leading the entire playoffs in scoring one season. He is lost in the shuffle in Carolina, but this isn't Rick Nash's phantom hype when people talk up Staal he is a dominant presence that shows up an awful lotwith consistent numbers and effort, even with little help.

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02-12-2013, 03:14 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Zetterberg4Captain View Post
problematic players only become problems when signed to problematic contracts.

their is absolutely zero risk to signing a "perceived" problematic player to a one year deal.

their was zero chance datsyuk, zetterberg, kronwall and howard would have walked into KH's office and handed in their pink slips, zero.

their was and remains no risk

KH simply did not want to sign Semin, period.
There also seems to be this feeling out there that these guys really wanted him, in particular Datsyuk. Semin stayed unsigned for a long repeat LONG time period. Maybe he didn't tell Holland to go get him either or his review wasn't great behind closed doors.

I personally wanted them to sign Semin, and was really angry when he just did the one year deal. I would still offer him a 3 year 5 million per contract this offseason and trim fat off the payroll to make it possible. But it could be Datsyuk knows through Ovie and the other Russians that while they all like Semin, having him on your own team for 82 games instead of just a two week tournament is kind of a pain.

An interesting thing going on right now, is when do we start handing out extensions to Brunner, Howard and Filppula? I honestly expected one of the last two to be extended by this point.

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02-12-2013, 03:16 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by The Zetterberg Era View Post
Really hope you weren't one of the people that took issue with Babcock's country mile statement on Zetterberg. Is Datsyuk better? Yes in my opinion, but much better? Not really. They score at similar rates Datsyuk .09 PPGA better in the regular seasn, while Staal scores at a better clip in the playoffs .25 PGGA difference.

For those of you that like to make the argument that Datsyuk's terrible linemates are to blame whenever something isn't happening for him. Staal would have pined for Danny Cleary for most of his career, much less some of the other guys Pavel has played with. In his peak years Staal has never had a Zetterberg or Hossa. This is the first time he actually has some decent talent around him and he is still in the middle/tail end depending on how his form stays of his prime. I think Datsyuk is better, especially in his own zone, but offensively that is a pretty tight contest.

Eric Staal is a very good player in this league still to this day. A cup champion, triple gold member that has accomplished a lot of great things, including leading the entire playoffs in scoring one season. He is lost in the shuffle in Carolina, but this isn't Rick Nash's phantom hype when people talk up Staal he is a dominant presence that shows up an awful lotwith consistent numbers and effort, even with little help.
Spot on. E Staal gets criminally underrated. He's done nothing but produce despite having less than complimentary resources along the way. Last season he was 24 points ahead of the next leading scorer on the team. 24 points.

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02-12-2013, 03:17 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by The Zetterberg Era View Post
There also seems to be this feeling out there that these guys really wanted him, in particular Datsyuk. Semin stayed unsigned for a long repeat LONG time period. Maybe he didn't tell Holland to go get him either or his review wasn't great behind closed doors.

I personally wanted them to sign Semin, and was really angry when he just did the one year deal. I would still offer him a 3 year 5 million per contract this offseason and trim fat off the payroll to make it possible.

An interesting thing going on right now, is when do we start handing out extensions to Brunner, Howard and Filppula? I honestly expected one of the last two to be extended by this point.
not sure about the other two but acccording to this mlive article Holland hasn't begun talks on signing Brunner to an extension:

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index....ner_makes.html

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02-12-2013, 03:22 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by The Zetterberg Era View Post
There also seems to be this feeling out there that these guys really wanted him, in particular Datsyuk. Semin stayed unsigned for a long repeat LONG time period. Maybe he didn't tell Holland to go get him either or his review wasn't great behind closed doors.

I personally wanted them to sign Semin, and was really angry when he just did the one year deal. I would still offer him a 3 year 5 million per contract this offseason and trim fat off the payroll to make it possible. But it could be Datsyuk knows through Ovie and the other Russians that while they all like Semin, having him on your own team for 82 games instead of just a two week tournament is kind of a pain.

An interesting thing going on right now, is when do we start handing out extensions to Brunner, Howard and Filppula? I honestly expected one of the last two to be extended by this point.
It is a bit wild to assume NHL GMs are getting their information from TSN. Yeesh. They have access to pick up the phone and call, well, everybody. Reviews must not have been favorable on Semin or he would have got a huge deal. Hell, Hudler had more options and got better term than Semin. There's a reason for this, one people in the know aren't going to blab around because it's bad business. So we're left guessing, but the supplementary evidence suggests it wasn't some TSN Canadian brainwash.

As for the contracts, you've got to believe they are waiting to see how these guys perform over a longer span this year. Can Filppula repeat his pace from last season? Will Howard carve himself into a top 10 goaltender ALL season? Book is still out on both of those currently, and those types of things influence negotiations pretty dramatically.

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02-12-2013, 03:32 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
I'm starting to think there really wasn't a good reason for any team not to sign Semin. It's not just the Wings. Semin's reputation was absolutely eradicated by the media. Nothing about Semin suggested any of the character assassination was warranted. As Canes fans are professing, his defensive game is top notch, and he's the kind of player they've been looking for. It's not Hollands fault. We're all stupid sheeple that will buy into whatever the media tells us time and again. I mean, look at what Jason Arnott had to say about him. Guy comes in from the outside and understood Semin better than anyone on the team. Why no one brought this up is beyond me. This sho\uld have been the be all end all to the question of the enigma that Semin was made out to be. Sadly it was just ignored, and many teams chose to pass on Semin.
Here is an article i found:

http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/20...ents#107578090

basically stating Semin does not (statistically) show any problems people have accused him of.

I really wanted Semin. If he has a great year we keep him, if not he walks.

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02-12-2013, 03:39 PM
  #73
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not sure about the other two but acccording to this mlive article Holland hasn't begun talks on signing Brunner to an extension:

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index....ner_makes.html
On a side note, pretty unfair to put Igor Grigorenko into the NA failure column.

Thanks for the article though.

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02-12-2013, 04:40 PM
  #74
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Former Red Wings forward Stacy Roest played for Swiss club Rapperswil-Jona for nine seasons from 2004-12. He sent Holland an e-mail in November 2011 alerting him to Brunner.

He said if there's one guy who can play in the NHL, it's Brunner,'' Holland said. We got him on the radar screen, sent out e-mails to our scouts. They were aware of him anyway.
Thank you Stacy Roest! This is how a real Red Wing acts. Loyal for the family.

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02-12-2013, 05:22 PM
  #75
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Semin's deal is he can be great offensively, is underrated defensively and shows all sorts of insane skill but when things aren't working for him, he'll be the first to cash it in and call it a day. Surely enough, he could have slid in on top lines given our cash space, but who cares-- let the headaches associated with him run their course somewhere else. It's so frustrating watching him.

This was a guy with all the skill in the world and a close relationship to the Caps stars who was continually signed to one year contracts and then eventually let go by GMGM for nothing after being asked if he was gonna' be resigned.

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