No, and he isn't even close. I like him, and his career has been fantastic, but he has never reached the heights necessary for him to be a top-10 forward of all time. I don't know if I would even put him in the top-20. To get on those lists its reserved for multiple Art Ross winners, Hart winners, etc.
Why? His best years were competing with some of the best players of all time. He came close those years but couldn't pull it off. He was still in the same tier. Other than Kariya, the Ducks of the 90s were weak teams offensively. The guys he was losing to had better support. Like are you really gonna tell people that with the kind of production Teemu was putting out and the level of play the Ducks had, the 90s should have been an easy time for Teemu to win Art Ross and Hart trophies? He was getting beat by guys that are easily top 10 at this point. Not saying he's top 10? But he can't even squeak into the top 20? Come on.
And if you add up all the seasons marred by injuries pre lockout he lost 2 plus seasons worth of hockey. 222 games. Just imagine how many points and goals could have come out of that. It's not crazy to say that with better health Teemu could have had at least another 100 goals and 200 points.
Why? His best years were competing with some of the best players of all time. He came close those years but couldn't pull it off. He was still in the same tier. Other than Kariya, the Ducks of the 90s were weak teams offensively. The guys he was losing to had better support. Like are you really gonna tell people that with the kind of production Teemu was putting out and the level of play the Ducks had, the 90s should have been an easy time for Teemu to win Art Ross and Hart trophies? He was getting beat by guys that are easily top 10 at this point. Not saying he's top 10? But he can't even squeak into the top 20? Come on.
And if you add up all the seasons marred by injuries pre lockout he lost 2 plus seasons worth of hockey. 222 games. Just imagine how many points and goals could have come out of that. It's not crazy to say that with better health Teemu could have had at least another 100 goals and 200 points.
Not the point I was making. At all. I'm saying he could've had better stats if he was healthy. The lockout saved his career. I didn't include the lockout in the 222 missed games.
Wayne Gretzky
Gordie Howe
Mario Lemieux
Bobby Hull
Jean Beliveau
Maurice Richard
Stan Mikita
Phil Esposito
Howie Morenz
Guy Lafleur
Jaromir Jagr
Bobby Clarke
Mark Messier
Bryan Trottier
Mike Bossy
Valeri Kharlamov
Edouard Lalonde
Ted Lindsay
Joe Sakic
Steve Yzerman
Joe Malone
Syl Apps
Bernard Geoffrion
Charlie Conacher
Milt Schmidt
Marcel Dionne
Frank Mahovlich
Dickie Moore
Joe Malone
**** this is getting tiring but he's defiantly top 40
I don't think you can claim that Jagr is a top ten player. Top ten forward, probably, but not a top ten player.
In no order, Gretzky, G. Howe, Messier, M. Richard, Bo. Hull, Bo. Orr, Ph. Esposito, Shore, Roy, Brodeur, Harvey. That`s 11, with a couple goalies, without even thinking hard.
Phil Esposito against Jagr is not even a comparison. Jagr wins a comparison of two big, strong scoring forwards easily, and does it without Bobby Orr.
Jagr being top ten does not mean he is ranked above Orr, Gretzky, Howe, or Lemieux.
Jagr was better than Richard; Jagr was more dominant with less to work with.
Messier in his peak season of 1990 showed the kind of dominance Jagr showed in several seasons. Messier's peak offensive performance was also a significant outlier from his normal performance. Jagr>Messier.
As for Bobby Hull, I rank him above Jagr but one could certainly make a valid argument in favor of Jagr.
Shore, Harvey, Roy, and Brodeur all play different positions so I'm not going to go through them in a thread about Selanne. I will say that I consider Jagr better than all of them.
Wayne Gretzky, 894
Gordie Howe, 801 Brett Hull, 741 Marcel Dionne, 731
Phil Esposito, 717 Mike Gartner, 708 Mark Messier, 694 Steve Yzerman, 692
Mario Lemieux, 690 Luc Robitaille, 668
He's definitely top 20 NHL forwards of all time... Maybe top 15... Either way, he's a first ballot HHF.
No. Where are guys like the Rocket or Beliveau or Bobby Hull or Mikita or Lafluer or Clarke or Jagr? And no to Teemu, as much as I like him.
As great as he was, Yzerman just seems a bit out of place on that list.
I would rank Selanne somewhere between Dionne (I think they're about a coin flip tbh) and Brett Hull.
Agreed, Yzerman is too high there.
I was actually looking at Dionne vs Selanne case few days a go. I haven't yet built up the courage to Compare Selanne to Dionne. They have pretty similar Adjusted stats at this moment. If i recall correctly they are less than 10 games and points apart. Selanne has more adjusted goals and Dionne assists.
Dionne however has better track-record on scoring finishes but never faced as stiff competition as Selanne. Tough nut to crack, but i was genuinely surprised too see how good Selanne did against Dionne. I always thought Selanne would drop in somewhere between Kurri and Brett Hull but i am starting to think him more of as between Hull and Dionne.
Phil Esposito against Jagr is not even a comparison. Jagr wins a comparison of two big, strong scoring forwards easily, and does it without Bobby Orr.
Jagr being top ten does not mean he is ranked above Orr, Gretzky, Howe, or Lemieux.
Jagr was better than Richard; Jagr was more dominant with less to work with.
Messier in his peak season of 1990 showed the kind of dominance Jagr showed in several seasons. Messier's peak offensive performance was also a significant outlier from his normal performance. Jagr>Messier.
As for Bobby Hull, I rank him above Jagr but one could certainly make a valid argument in favor of Jagr.
Shore, Harvey, Roy, and Brodeur all play different positions so I'm not going to go through them in a thread about Selanne. I will say that I consider Jagr better than all of them.
Hmmm, tha tis going to be very tough to convince people that Yzerman > so many other deserving players. Also, Lidstrom has no business being on the list with no Shore, Harvey, or Bourque.
Jagr needs to be on any self respecting hockey fans list.
So does Morenz, imo, but since it takes more than 2 clicks to find him (not on easily accessible/sortable all-time lists - except for the Hart winners list, that is), so he's already forgotten to an entire generation (or two... or three?).
Still no "guarantee" or "proof". If the top 5 centres, just for example, are all "judged" as "better" than the rest of the wingers (despite having "the best season at their position" - all-star placements do NOT rank players in a vacuum), then the highest winger is relegated to the 6th spot. Think of the stretch of years when Gretzky, Lindros, Lemieux, Fedorov, Gilmour, and Oates all split votes at the centre position, and tell me where Shanahan, Bure, Graves, Stevens etc fit in amongst them in a "top forwards" discussion.
Still no "guarantee" or "proof". If the top 5 centres, just for example, are all "judged" as "better" than the rest of the wingers (despite having "the best season at their position" - all-star placements do NOT rank players in a vacuum), then the highest winger is relegated to the 6th spot. Think of the stretch of years when Gretzky, Lindros, Lemieux, Fedorov, Gilmour, and Oates all split votes at the centre position, and tell me where Shanahan, Bure, Graves, Stevens etc fit in amongst them in a "top forwards" discussion.
But we arent talking about Graves and Stevens are we? RW was very strong between 92-2001 (stronger than Centre some years), when Selanne played his best stretch of hockey. I'm well aware that the 2nd best LW is no where near the 3rd best Center. All-Star teams like everything, need to be put in context.
If you had looked a little harder you would have seen that in all of Selanne's AST selections he placed 2,2,5,5 in scoring. I guess that technically makes him a "top 3-5" player as that poster was asking.
