HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > National Hockey League Talk > Polls - (hockey-related only)

Is Teemu Selanne a top 10 forward of all time?

View Poll Results: Is Teemu Selanne a Top 10 forward of all time
Yes 54 15.43%
No 296 84.57%
Voters: 350. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-11-2013, 12:24 PM
  #101
DuckJet
#KESBAE
 
DuckJet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Funkytown
Country: Kazakhstan
Posts: 36,109
vCash: 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fataldogg View Post
No, and he isn't even close. I like him, and his career has been fantastic, but he has never reached the heights necessary for him to be a top-10 forward of all time. I don't know if I would even put him in the top-20. To get on those lists its reserved for multiple Art Ross winners, Hart winners, etc.
Why? His best years were competing with some of the best players of all time. He came close those years but couldn't pull it off. He was still in the same tier. Other than Kariya, the Ducks of the 90s were weak teams offensively. The guys he was losing to had better support. Like are you really gonna tell people that with the kind of production Teemu was putting out and the level of play the Ducks had, the 90s should have been an easy time for Teemu to win Art Ross and Hart trophies? He was getting beat by guys that are easily top 10 at this point. Not saying he's top 10? But he can't even squeak into the top 20? Come on.

And if you add up all the seasons marred by injuries pre lockout he lost 2 plus seasons worth of hockey. 222 games. Just imagine how many points and goals could have come out of that. It's not crazy to say that with better health Teemu could have had at least another 100 goals and 200 points.


Last edited by DuckJet: 02-11-2013 at 12:30 PM.
DuckJet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2013, 03:51 PM
  #102
Evincar
Your Final Judgement
 
Evincar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,188
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckJet View Post
Why? His best years were competing with some of the best players of all time. He came close those years but couldn't pull it off. He was still in the same tier. Other than Kariya, the Ducks of the 90s were weak teams offensively. The guys he was losing to had better support. Like are you really gonna tell people that with the kind of production Teemu was putting out and the level of play the Ducks had, the 90s should have been an easy time for Teemu to win Art Ross and Hart trophies? He was getting beat by guys that are easily top 10 at this point. Not saying he's top 10? But he can't even squeak into the top 20? Come on.

And if you add up all the seasons marred by injuries pre lockout he lost 2 plus seasons worth of hockey. 222 games. Just imagine how many points and goals could have come out of that. It's not crazy to say that with better health Teemu could have had at least another 100 goals and 200 points.
The 2005 lockout helped Selanne.

Evincar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2013, 04:33 PM
  #103
DuckJet
#KESBAE
 
DuckJet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Funkytown
Country: Kazakhstan
Posts: 36,109
vCash: 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Litework View Post
The 2005 lockout helped Selanne.
Not the point I was making. At all. I'm saying he could've had better stats if he was healthy. The lockout saved his career. I didn't include the lockout in the 222 missed games.

DuckJet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2013, 05:24 PM
  #104
Pucklington
Registered User
 
Pucklington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: canada
Posts: 635
vCash: 500
Jagr needs to be on any self respecting hockey fans list.

Pucklington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2013, 05:57 PM
  #105
um
Registered User
 
um's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,114
vCash: 500
Wayne Gretzky
Gordie Howe
Mario Lemieux
Bobby Hull
Jean Beliveau
Maurice Richard
Stan Mikita
Phil Esposito
Howie Morenz
Guy Lafleur
Jaromir Jagr
Bobby Clarke
Mark Messier
Bryan Trottier
Mike Bossy
Valeri Kharlamov
Edouard Lalonde
Ted Lindsay
Joe Sakic
Steve Yzerman
Joe Malone
Syl Apps
Bernard Geoffrion
Charlie Conacher
Milt Schmidt
Marcel Dionne
Frank Mahovlich
Dickie Moore
Joe Malone

**** this is getting tiring but he's defiantly top 40

um is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2013, 09:39 PM
  #106
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,578
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
I don't think you can claim that Jagr is a top ten player. Top ten forward, probably, but not a top ten player.

In no order, Gretzky, G. Howe, Messier, M. Richard, Bo. Hull, Bo. Orr, Ph. Esposito, Shore, Roy, Brodeur, Harvey. That`s 11, with a couple goalies, without even thinking hard.
Phil Esposito against Jagr is not even a comparison. Jagr wins a comparison of two big, strong scoring forwards easily, and does it without Bobby Orr.

Jagr being top ten does not mean he is ranked above Orr, Gretzky, Howe, or Lemieux.

Jagr was better than Richard; Jagr was more dominant with less to work with.

Messier in his peak season of 1990 showed the kind of dominance Jagr showed in several seasons. Messier's peak offensive performance was also a significant outlier from his normal performance. Jagr>Messier.

As for Bobby Hull, I rank him above Jagr but one could certainly make a valid argument in favor of Jagr.

Shore, Harvey, Roy, and Brodeur all play different positions so I'm not going to go through them in a thread about Selanne. I will say that I consider Jagr better than all of them.

My top-ten:
Howe
Orr
Gretzky
Lemieux
Yzerman
Hull
Beliveau
Hasek
Jagr
Lidstrom

pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2013, 09:45 PM
  #107
Mansfield
possession obsession
 
Mansfield's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Ontario, Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,791
vCash: 500
maybe top 25. definitely not top 10

Mansfield is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2013, 09:47 PM
  #108
Czech Your Math
Registered User
 
Czech Your Math's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: bohemia
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 3,373
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
My top-ten:
Howe
Orr
Gretzky
Lemieux
Yzerman
Hull
Beliveau
Hasek
Jagr
Lidstrom
As great as he was, Yzerman just seems a bit out of place on that list.

I would rank Selanne somewhere between Dionne (I think they're about a coin flip tbh) and Brett Hull.

Czech Your Math is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2013, 10:22 PM
  #109
Gliff
Nick Bonino
 
Gliff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: California
Country: United States
Posts: 8,680
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyThoughts View Post
Not even remotely close. I don't even think he makes my top 50 forwards, let alone top 10.
Hater. Complete BS.

Gliff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2013, 10:30 PM
  #110
Selanne138
Registered User
 
Selanne138's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,478
vCash: 500
Top 1 in my heart, but probably around Top 20-25 of all time.

Selanne138 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2013, 10:32 PM
  #111
Selanne138
Registered User
 
Selanne138's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,478
vCash: 500
Nevermind, misread.

Selanne138 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2013, 10:35 PM
  #112
Eisen
Registered User
 
Eisen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Eugene
Country: Germany
Posts: 6,338
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by wally31 View Post
Wayne Gretzky, 894
Gordie Howe, 801
Brett Hull, 741
Marcel Dionne, 731
Phil Esposito, 717
Mike Gartner, 708
Mark Messier, 694
Steve Yzerman, 692
Mario Lemieux, 690
Luc Robitaille, 668

He's definitely top 20 NHL forwards of all time... Maybe top 15... Either way, he's a first ballot HHF.
No. Where are guys like the Rocket or Beliveau or Bobby Hull or Mikita or Lafluer or Clarke or Jagr? And no to Teemu, as much as I like him.

Eisen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2013, 11:27 PM
  #113
TAnnala
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Oulu
Posts: 8,725
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
As great as he was, Yzerman just seems a bit out of place on that list.

I would rank Selanne somewhere between Dionne (I think they're about a coin flip tbh) and Brett Hull.
Agreed, Yzerman is too high there.

I was actually looking at Dionne vs Selanne case few days a go. I haven't yet built up the courage to Compare Selanne to Dionne. They have pretty similar Adjusted stats at this moment. If i recall correctly they are less than 10 games and points apart. Selanne has more adjusted goals and Dionne assists.

Dionne however has better track-record on scoring finishes but never faced as stiff competition as Selanne. Tough nut to crack, but i was genuinely surprised too see how good Selanne did against Dionne. I always thought Selanne would drop in somewhere between Kurri and Brett Hull but i am starting to think him more of as between Hull and Dionne.

TAnnala is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2013, 11:30 PM
  #114
silkyjohnson50
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,565
vCash: 500
How many seasons was Selanne even considered a top 5 forward in the NHL? Honest question.

Great career though.

silkyjohnson50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-11-2013, 11:33 PM
  #115
TAnnala
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Oulu
Posts: 8,725
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by silkyjohnson50 View Post
How many seasons was Selanne even considered a top 5 forward in the NHL? Honest question.

Great career though.
Probably 3-5 years.

TAnnala is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-12-2013, 12:26 AM
  #116
Selanne138
Registered User
 
Selanne138's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,478
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by silkyjohnson50 View Post
How many seasons was Selanne even considered a top 5 forward in the NHL? Honest question.

Great career though.
IMBO, he was consistently from 95-00, with the 92-93 and 06-07 seasons as outliers where he could be considered at that level by some.

Selanne138 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-12-2013, 12:50 AM
  #117
OrrNumber4
Registered User
 
OrrNumber4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Country: Switzerland
Posts: 7,354
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Phil Esposito against Jagr is not even a comparison. Jagr wins a comparison of two big, strong scoring forwards easily, and does it without Bobby Orr.

Jagr being top ten does not mean he is ranked above Orr, Gretzky, Howe, or Lemieux.

Jagr was better than Richard; Jagr was more dominant with less to work with.

Messier in his peak season of 1990 showed the kind of dominance Jagr showed in several seasons. Messier's peak offensive performance was also a significant outlier from his normal performance. Jagr>Messier.

As for Bobby Hull, I rank him above Jagr but one could certainly make a valid argument in favor of Jagr.

Shore, Harvey, Roy, and Brodeur all play different positions so I'm not going to go through them in a thread about Selanne. I will say that I consider Jagr better than all of them.

My top-ten:
Howe
Orr
Gretzky
Lemieux
Yzerman
Hull
Beliveau
Hasek
Jagr
Lidstrom
Hmmm, tha tis going to be very tough to convince people that Yzerman > so many other deserving players. Also, Lidstrom has no business being on the list with no Shore, Harvey, or Bourque.

OrrNumber4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-12-2013, 09:23 AM
  #118
Ohashi_Jouzu
Registered User
 
Ohashi_Jouzu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Halifax
Country: Japan
Posts: 21,421
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pucklington View Post
Jagr needs to be on any self respecting hockey fans list.
So does Morenz, imo, but since it takes more than 2 clicks to find him (not on easily accessible/sortable all-time lists - except for the Hart winners list, that is), so he's already forgotten to an entire generation (or two... or three?).

Ohashi_Jouzu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-12-2013, 10:13 AM
  #119
Oiled up*
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,844
vCash: 500
Top 30... That's still a great feat.

Oiled up* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-12-2013, 01:19 PM
  #120
Evincar
Your Final Judgement
 
Evincar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,188
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by silkyjohnson50 View Post
How many seasons was Selanne even considered a top 5 forward in the NHL? Honest question.

Great career though.
The 4 All-star team selections?

Evincar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-12-2013, 02:40 PM
  #121
Ohashi_Jouzu
Registered User
 
Ohashi_Jouzu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Halifax
Country: Japan
Posts: 21,421
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Litework View Post
The 4 All-star team selections?
Still no "guarantee" or "proof". If the top 5 centres, just for example, are all "judged" as "better" than the rest of the wingers (despite having "the best season at their position" - all-star placements do NOT rank players in a vacuum), then the highest winger is relegated to the 6th spot. Think of the stretch of years when Gretzky, Lindros, Lemieux, Fedorov, Gilmour, and Oates all split votes at the centre position, and tell me where Shanahan, Bure, Graves, Stevens etc fit in amongst them in a "top forwards" discussion.

Ohashi_Jouzu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-12-2013, 03:07 PM
  #122
jigglysquishy
Registered User
 
jigglysquishy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Regina, Saskatchewan
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,376
vCash: 492
Selanne

1st AS 2x
2nd AS 2x
3 Rocket Richards

Point Finishes
2nd, 2nd, 5th, 5th, 8th, 8th, 8th

jigglysquishy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-12-2013, 03:28 PM
  #123
Oan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 684
vCash: 500
He is rich mans Peter Bondra.

Oan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-12-2013, 03:37 PM
  #124
Evincar
Your Final Judgement
 
Evincar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,188
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Still no "guarantee" or "proof". If the top 5 centres, just for example, are all "judged" as "better" than the rest of the wingers (despite having "the best season at their position" - all-star placements do NOT rank players in a vacuum), then the highest winger is relegated to the 6th spot. Think of the stretch of years when Gretzky, Lindros, Lemieux, Fedorov, Gilmour, and Oates all split votes at the centre position, and tell me where Shanahan, Bure, Graves, Stevens etc fit in amongst them in a "top forwards" discussion.
But we arent talking about Graves and Stevens are we? RW was very strong between 92-2001 (stronger than Centre some years), when Selanne played his best stretch of hockey. I'm well aware that the 2nd best LW is no where near the 3rd best Center. All-Star teams like everything, need to be put in context.

If you had looked a little harder you would have seen that in all of Selanne's AST selections he placed 2,2,5,5 in scoring. I guess that technically makes him a "top 3-5" player as that poster was asking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jigglysquishy View Post

Selanne

1st AS 2x
2nd AS 2x
3 Rocket Richards

Point Finishes
2nd, 2nd, 5th, 5th, 8th, 8th, 8th
There's your proof.

Evincar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-12-2013, 04:09 PM
  #125
startainfection
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Long Island
Posts: 5,895
vCash: 500
maybe if he continued the production he had in his first 2 seasons he would be top 5 but he isn't even top 25 imo

startainfection is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:39 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.