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Jamie Benn and Loui Eriksson

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02-12-2013, 06:00 PM
  #51
slaps
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Originally Posted by Brand New Stars View Post
Now this is just hypocritical. "Call me when..."

Since Benn has achieved none of those milestones, it seems a little premature to be asking me to dinner.

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02-12-2013, 06:06 PM
  #52
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I was hoping you could sell me some of that marvelous crack you must have.

My crack is good, but it's not "calling Benn bad defensively" good.

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02-12-2013, 06:09 PM
  #53
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So buy your logic Malkin is not a first liner either. Faceoff percentage below 50%, and he's awful in his own end.

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02-12-2013, 06:09 PM
  #54
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It must be better than mine if you perceive Benn as anything other than average, at best, defensively.

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02-12-2013, 06:10 PM
  #55
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And you're basing it solely on points. Call me when he can win a faceoff at least half the time. Or when he can defend as well as score some points. Or maybe when he can lift our PP from the gutter.

Legit #1's don't just score points, they play in all situations and make the people around them better.

Benn is much better suited to a wing position with a solid center.
He's at 49.85% on the faceoff dot so far this season. That rounds up sir

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02-12-2013, 06:11 PM
  #56
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It must be better than mine if you perceive Benn as anything other than average, at best, defensively.
So you're saying you've never seen Benn on the PK? That's all I'm getting here.

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02-12-2013, 06:11 PM
  #57
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He's at 49.85% on the faceoff dot so far this season. That rounds up sir
NOPE! But on the bright side he's one faceoff win away from being a #1C.

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02-12-2013, 06:13 PM
  #58
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So buy your logic Malkin is not a first liner either. Faceoff percentage below 50%, and he's awful in his own end.
Vastly better points, better +/-, and still a better faceoff percentage than Benn, plus he makes every player around him better.

I'll allow an exemption for players that score more than 100 points / more than 50 goals, while also making room for their linemates to score in buckets that Gulutzan can only dream about.

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02-12-2013, 06:14 PM
  #59
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Vastly better points, better +/-, and still a better faceoff percentage than Benn, plus he makes every player around him better.

I'll allow an exemption for players that score more than 100 points / more than 50 goals, while also making room for their linemates to score in buckets that Gulutzan can only dream about.
HAHA there it is. +/-. Full troll mode engaged.

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02-12-2013, 06:15 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Elysian View Post
So you're saying you've never seen Benn on the PK? That's all I'm getting here.
No one has, because the head coach doesn't think his "best" player is good enough to be on it with any consistency.

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02-12-2013, 06:16 PM
  #61
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Benn +2
Malkin -2

Benn 48.4 FO%
Malkin 47.3 FO%

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02-12-2013, 06:20 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by hairylikebear View Post
HAHA there it is. +/-. Full troll mode engaged.

Allah forbid anyone use one of the traditionally accepted hockey metrics in making a point about the quality of a particular player. Perhaps we should base it on how nice players are to orphan children in their ramshackle garb begging for coins outside the ice rink.

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02-12-2013, 06:23 PM
  #63
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Allah forbid anyone use one of the traditionally accepted hockey metrics in making a point about the quality of a particular player. Perhaps we should base it on how nice players are to orphan children in their ramshackle garb begging for coins outside the ice rink.
Pretty sure you know as well as anyone else here how poor a stat +/- is. If you don't, well you probably shouldn't be in this conversation, you certainly couldn't know enough to judge a player if you think +/- is valid.

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02-12-2013, 06:24 PM
  #64
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Pretty sure you know as well as anyone else here how poor a stat +/- is. If you don't, well you probably shouldn't be in this conversation, you certainly couldn't know enough to judge a player if you think +/- is valid.
Of course, I forgot, my entire argument was based on one statistical metric instead of a variety of factors that I forgot to list.

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02-12-2013, 06:28 PM
  #65
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Of course, I forgot, my entire argument was based on one statistical metric instead of a variety of factors that I forgot to list.
So far it's been easy to poke holes in your "variety of factors." You refusing to admit that doesn't change the facts.

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02-12-2013, 06:31 PM
  #66
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So far it's been easy to poke holes in your "variety of factors." You refusing to admit that doesn't change the facts.

What facts? That Benn has never scored 70 points? That he is defensively shaky at best? That he can't win a faceoff to save his life? That the power play is abysmal and our "star" player hasn't done much to change that? That everything people praise about Benn is based more on potential than it is on actual evidence and facts? That the head coach doesn't trust Benn at all on special teams play?

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02-12-2013, 06:38 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by slaps View Post
What facts? That Benn has never scored 70 points? That he is defensively shaky at best? That he can't win a faceoff to save his life? That the power play is abysmal and our "star" player hasn't done much to change that? That everything people praise about Benn is based more on potential than it is on actual evidence and facts? That the head coach doesn't trust Benn at all on special teams play?
those are pretty fair points. although, most of this board thinks they're better coaches than gully, so the last point won't buy much here.

part of the excitement around benn reminds me a lot of the early years of romo. every cowboys fan had him as a top 5 qb in the league, based solely on a year/ year and a half sample size... which seems like plenty, until you look back at all the, "they're gonna be great" players who flame out after 3 years.

or, in the case of romo, get better over time until they face a must win.

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02-12-2013, 06:50 PM
  #68
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those are pretty fair points. although, most of this board thinks they're better coaches than gully, so the last point won't buy much here.
No one here besides maybe the profoundly arrogant believes he/she is a better NHL coach than Gulutzan. However, a consensus of informed amateurs is potentially more illuminating than the opinion of a single professional.

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02-12-2013, 06:53 PM
  #69
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You mean the single professional who lives and works with these players every day and whose very lucrative job depends on getting the absolute best out of them?

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02-12-2013, 06:54 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by slaps View Post
And you're basing it solely on points. Call me when he can win a faceoff at least half the time. Or when he can defend as well as score some points. Or maybe when he can lift our PP from the gutter.

Legit #1's don't just score points, they play in all situations and make the people around them better.

Benn is much better suited to a wing position with a solid center.
at thinking Benn is bad in his own zone. There's reason he's on our PK, and its not because he scores so many goals from there.

He's physically dominant, too, anyone with eyes can see that.

He's making Brenden ****ing Morrow look good right now. I don't see how that's not exactly what you just said.

Just because he's below average at faceoffs doesn't mean he's not a center. Steve Ott was never a center, and yet he's a beast on the draw. Chiasson, a winger, and likely Benn's longterm winger, seems to be quite adept at faceoffs, so there's that problem solved.

And if Kari isn't elite, then there isn't an elite goaltender in the league.

Why don't you get back to us after you decide to actually watch some Stars' games not from '09-'10?

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02-12-2013, 06:57 PM
  #71
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You mean the single professional who lives and works with these players every day and whose very lucrative job depends on getting the absolute best out of them?
Yes, that one.

He's human and he's certainly no genius.

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02-12-2013, 06:59 PM
  #72
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He's making Brenden ****ing Morrow look good right now.
An absolute miracle.

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02-12-2013, 06:59 PM
  #73
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Not really a fan of Loui or Benn. We should trade them.

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02-12-2013, 07:07 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by LatvianTwist View Post
at thinking Benn is bad in his own zone. There's reason he's on our PK, and its not because he scores so many goals from there.
He's not on the PK as much as Eakin, Roy, or Fiddler. The Stars are playing a rookie almost 30 seconds a game on the PK more than Benn. Benn ranks dead last among the Stars' regular centers in PK time. Last season, the Stars played Ribeiro on the PK more than Benn. Ribeiro. Possibly one of the weakest players in the league at defense, and he was averaging almost 20 seconds a game more than Benn, who again ranked dead last on the Stars for PK time among regular players.

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He's physically dominant, too, anyone with eyes can see that.
I guess your eyes work differently than everyone else's, because he's about midpack in hits and everything else, and while he may be noticeable, he's not exactly making opposing players cringe in fear.

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He's making Brenden ****ing Morrow look good right now. I don't see how that's not exactly what you just said.
Morrow looks terrible. He looks slow and out of place, even though he may be happier playing on the top line. The team is just trying to keep him happy. He doesn't belong there and he looks it.

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Just because he's below average at faceoffs doesn't mean he's not a center. Steve Ott was never a center, and yet he's a beast on the draw. Chiasson, a winger, and likely Benn's longterm winger, seems to be quite adept at faceoffs, so there's that problem solved.
Ah, so the solution to the fact that Benn can't win draws is a rookie who has never played at the NHL level who is suddenly going to produce on a top line at the NHL? That seems like a reasonable solution indeed. Because it's totally unreasonable to expect a center to be able to, you know, do the stuff a center is supposed to do.

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And if Kari isn't elite, then there isn't an elite goaltender in the league.
I'm blown away by your compelling argument.

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02-12-2013, 07:10 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by hairylikebear View Post
No one here besides maybe the profoundly arrogant believes he/she is a better NHL coach than Gulutzan. However, a consensus of informed amateurs is potentially more illuminating than the opinion of a single professional.
hmm, while i appreciate the non over the top approach to what your saying, the belief you state at the end is why fundamentally i disagree with so many, "what the F is the coach doing" statements.

no matter how much we think we know or see about the team we are so far removed from their day to day planning and discussion and practice that it's ludicrous to draw definitive conclusions based on the data we do have. you could say, well i can tell weather or not they suck if they lose more than they win.. sure.. but you can't say why. i deal with this regularly (i'm a data analyst) and i promise you, conclusions based on limited or poor data are worthless. of course it's fun to bandy about our opinions and thoughts, but the dogmatic side of things drives me insane sometime.

do you realize how much film these guys break down? how every goal and goal against is logged and broken down multiple shifts prior? and how about this one: when a player is not positioned, or making decisions in accordance with how he was coached to play? we just don't have anywhere close to the same dataset as the people making decisions.

/rant

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