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All Encompassing Tanking/Rebuilding/Selling at Deadline Thread 2.0

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02-13-2013, 05:23 AM
  #801
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Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
It's ironic that you say that. No point in making the playoffs if you can't compete.

For a long and sustainable run in the playoffs where we actually contend for the Cup, we need to improve our prospect depth. We need a few mediocre years to do that. Look at Galchenyuk. One more player of his calibre and it makes a huge difference. You just went from Desharnais and Gionta to Galchenyuk and, for example, Drouin in your top 6. That's a major difference.

You'll all cry now but you'll be screaming like a little girl in a few years if we do lose now. Book it.
Prospects don't help in the playoffs. We need to improve on the players on our roster. Trying for a top-5 pick and waiting for him to develop isn't the only way to improve the roster.

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02-13-2013, 05:36 AM
  #802
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Boston had two tank picks. They drafted phil kessel who turned into seguin+hanilton the year thry traded veteran joe thornton away.

They also traded raycroft for rask.

Seguin was a nice piece in their cup run. He hamilton amd rask will be a nice piece of any future cup run.
Seguin had 7pts in their playoff run, he was hardly a nice piece in their cup run.

Raycroft had already begun to show cracks and had lost his job to Thomas.

Seguin, Rask, Hamilton will be big parts of any future cup runs, but they barely contributed to the cup they did win.

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02-13-2013, 05:52 AM
  #803
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Well, he if doesn't accept this for two years in a row (leading to the firing of a GM), well...

I'll cheer for another team, because I'd really feel like an idiot to give time and (indirect) money to an even bigger idiot.
Once you go Habs you never go back

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02-13-2013, 06:18 AM
  #804
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Seguin had 7pts in their playoff run, he was hardly a nice piece in their cup run.

Raycroft had already begun to show cracks and had lost his job to Thomas.

Seguin, Rask, Hamilton will be big parts of any future cup runs, but they barely contributed to the cup they did win.
7 points is 7 points. It's not irrelevant, particularly for a championship team like Boston that needed game 7 OT wins followed by Game 7 OT wins.

Anyway, Boston is an outlier in many respects here. I am all for acquiring Leafs 1st rounders in trades, but they fact they nailed 3 out of 3 is a statistical anomaly.

Nice new avatar.

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02-13-2013, 06:38 AM
  #805
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so, you'd rather spend your time and money watching your team lose ?
I don't know, but if he fires Bergevin this offseason, I'm dropping this team for good.

(this is what I meant by my post).

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02-13-2013, 07:20 AM
  #806
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
When you sell a veteran, there are three chances to win:
1) You get to spend the cap space on somebody else.
2) You get whatever you get in return for the trade.
3) Your regular season performance drops, and your 1st rounder improves.

Habs spent the money saved on Sourray by getting Hamrlik, whereas Boston spent the money saved on Thornton by getting Chara. Both teams got an upgrade.

However, Boston also got to move up in the draft since losing Thornton dampened their regular season performance, and they took a legitimate risk that 3 roster players would improve their team. They took their full 3 chances to win, Montreal only took one.

If Montreal had sold Sourray in 2006, we would have replaced him with Hamrlik in any case. However, we would have gotten something in return (good odds), and we would have drafted McDonagh at 7th overall rather than 12th overall, lol... well that would have made no difference - but the principle remains.

Thornton was NOT a veteran.

link please, thank you.

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02-13-2013, 07:39 AM
  #807
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Do not underestimate Collberg.
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Prospects don't help in the playoffs. We need to improve on the players on our roster. Trying for a top-5 pick and waiting for him to develop isn't the only way to improve the roster.
Why hasn't it happened in the last 20 years?

Why do the large majority of Stanley Cup winners go through a rebuilding phase? We're not Detroit. We have to get to that level and then sustain it with prospect development.

Timmins can find gems. But the top end of the draft is still the top end of the draft.

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02-13-2013, 07:41 AM
  #808
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Originally Posted by Ginu View Post
Why hasn't it happened in the last 20 years?

Why do the large majority of Stanley Cup winners go through a rebuilding phase? We're not Detroit. We have to get to that level and then sustain it with prospect development.

Timmins can find gems. But the top end of the draft is still the top end of the draft.
name ONE team that didnt go trough a rebuilding phase at some point, just one...

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02-13-2013, 07:41 AM
  #809
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
enjoy the losses.
enjoy 8-10 place

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02-13-2013, 07:42 AM
  #810
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enjoy 8-10 place
lemme guess, you cried last night ?

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02-13-2013, 08:15 AM
  #811
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
It doesn't matter if Robinson is more important than Lafleur or if Quick is more important than Doughty dude... They are still key cogs of those teams. Do you seriously want to try to argue that Doughty wasn't a huge part of that team?
It does matter, if the guy is one of 5-6 other guys that are equally as important, and those 5-6 guys can all be acquired without tanking then you don't need to tank. If he was the best player you could argue you can only get players that good with a high draft pick. If most of the core guys were high draft picks you could argue you can't get enough players any other way. But that's not the case.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Poster child? No. But at least we FINALLY have some top picks to build with. At least we made a rebuild trade that's probably going to help us down the road.
Which is proof that you don't need to intentionally tank. You can still try for the playoffs every year, and when it's not your year you trade away UFAs and try again next year.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Worst case scenario the trade doesn't work out and we lose the vet.
No the worst case scenario is you put your prospects into roles they can't succeed in. They lose confidence, stagnate and we lose them for nothing. We could also develop a losing culture which is often hard to change without a drastic overhaul.

You're risking a lot more.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
We aren't going to win a cup with Markov. I'm sorry but it's true. And it was true with Koivu... Once you accept this then maybe you'll understand what we're talking about here.
I understand perfectly well, it's just you're speculating wildly so why would I accept that.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
If you're an 8th place team you can sit there and try to struggle to make the playoffs for years. That's what we've done for most of the last two decades and it got us nowhere. Then we got super luck in '05 with a one time lottery and now we have Galchenyuk. Without those guys this team's future would be very, very bleak.

But for some reason, you think that fighitng for 8th ever year somehow lead us somewhere... it didn't. It just made the rebuilding process longer and more painful. We just dragged it out as rebuilding teams like the Kings, Pens and Hawks leapfrogged us and won cups.
Before the lockout we were a budget team that couldn't compete with the big spenders. Even if we had tanked for years we wouldn't of won anything because you needed a huge payroll or tons of luck. So what happened in the late 90s early 2000s is irrelevant. The landscape is completly different now.

You seem to always ignore this crucial point. Even when you are fighting for 8th every year, some years things will go wrong and when they do that's when you sell UFAs and make rebuilding moves. Just like we did last year.

You can make rebuilding moves and fight for the playoffs every year.

You say it's lead us nowhere yet we now have a franchise Goalie, 2 1st line forwards, and a top pairing D. On top of that we have a bunch of quality vets, and a relatively good prospect pool. How has it led us nowhere?

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Common sense. Going after Kaberle and Bourque were not rebuild moves. Letting everyone go and then re-upping with Gomez and co. was not rebuilding. And the return on Rivet clearly shows we could've got more for Souray.
Then you need another dose of common sense. Every player is available if you are willing/able to overpay. If someone offered 10 1st round picks for Souray do you really think Gainey would've said no thanks I want to make the playoffs? No he would've taken the deal and run. We don't know what value Gainey placed on Souray, was it 10 picks? 5? 3? We can assume it was more than 1 because no doubt teams offered at least that. So when you say if you don't get the value you want then don't make the deal. That's exactly what we've done. You can argue how much value a UFA Souray had to the Habs but don't say only trade players if you get good value and then complain we didn't trade players when we could've.

Dumping half the team and then getting Gomez, Gionta, Cammalleri, Moen, Spacek, Gill was rebuilding. It just wasn't rebuilding through the draft. If instead of Gomez we had gotten a legitimate #1 C then we would likely have been contenders the last couple of years. We finished 6th with Gomez giving us 37pts, if he could've put up 80 we would've easily have been fighting at the top. So it could've worked if we used the capspace wisely. Boston did and became a contender. NYRs dumped some bad contracts and picked up better players and are now contenders. So it works just like rebuilding through the draft can work.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
What's not likely is us winning a cup this year or next. Hell we might not even make the playoffs this year. We are STILL a bubble team. Why do you want to continue to waste assets that have value now?
Because they are not being wasted.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Sure. And James Reimer could get hot too. Maybe the Leafs can win the cup this year too.
They could but probably have less of a shot then we do because it's less likely Reimer gets hot compared to Price.

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02-13-2013, 08:18 AM
  #812
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
lemme guess, you cried last night ?
You really contribute nothing to healthy discussion. Why don't you do us all a favour...

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02-13-2013, 08:18 AM
  #813
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Prospects don't help in the playoffs. We need to improve on the players on our roster. Trying for a top-5 pick and waiting for him to develop isn't the only way to improve the roster.
This is the part that you don't get.

We shouldn't worry about this year's playoffs. We should be building towards a cup. The cup is what matters not trying to get 8th this year or the inevitable 1st or 2nd round exit that follows if we do.

Gettign Kaberle last year for example was designed to get us to the playoffs. It didn't work but that's what was supposed to happen. In the long run though, picking him up actually puts us further away from a cup because he's mediocre and we're wasting time trying to be an 8th place team. We aren't trading for prospects and our draft pick is higher. It's very short term thinking to saddle ourselves with that type of player and contract.

On the flipside, getting a prospect may not help us this year. In the long run though getting a prospect helps us get closer to a cup. We weren't going to win last year anyway, just like we're not going to win anything this year. So getting a prospect who can develop with us NOW while we aren't winning anything will set us up better in two or three years when maybe we will be in a position to win.

I know it seems counter intuitive but it's true. Sometimes you take a step back to go two steps ahead. We haven't made moves like this in a long, long time and it's why we've spun our wheels for as long as we have.
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You really contribute nothing to healthy discussion. Why don't you do us all a favour...
That guy is one of two people I've got on ignore. Just do it Ginu, you'll be glad you did.

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Old
02-13-2013, 08:29 AM
  #814
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
7 points is 7 points. It's not irrelevant, particularly for a championship team like Boston that needed game 7 OT wins followed by Game 7 OT wins.

Anyway, Boston is an outlier in many respects here. I am all for acquiring Leafs 1st rounders in trades, but they fact they nailed 3 out of 3 is a statistical anomaly.

Nice new avatar.
Can't claim credit for making it but thanks!

7pts is pretty far down the chain. Boston won the cup without needing to tank, they will likely be a contender for a long time because they got toronto's rebuild picks though. Seguin & Hamilton will keep them strong even after Chara retires.

At the draft I would've been very tempted to swap picks with the leafs for the right to swap 1sts again one time in the next 3 years.

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02-13-2013, 08:34 AM
  #815
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You really contribute nothing to healthy discussion. Why don't you do us all a favour...
considering you're the one bring insightful comments such as "enjoy 8th", I'd refrain from commenting on other people's contribution if I were you.

Especially since you just like to ignore legitimate questions and comments.

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02-13-2013, 08:44 AM
  #816
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
This is the part that you don't get.

We shouldn't worry about this year's playoffs. We should be building towards a cup. The cup is what matters not trying to get 8th this year or the inevitable 1st or 2nd round exit that follows if we do.
I understand what your saying, but doing that increase the risk of it all blowing up in your face and not being bad enough to draft really high and not being good enough to get into the playoffs.

What you don't seem to get that going for the playoffs doesn't prevent you from making your team better in the long run as well.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Gettign Kaberle last year for example was designed to get us to the playoffs. It didn't work but that's what was supposed to happen. In the long run though, picking him up actually puts us further away from a cup because he's mediocre and we're wasting time trying to be an 8th place team. We aren't trading for prospects and our draft pick is higher. It's very short term thinking to saddle ourselves with that type of player and contract.
So long as you are not giving up good youth/picks when getting guys like Kaberle then it doesn't put us further from the cup. How does keeping Spacek get us closer to the cup? You woudn't want us to spend the cap space anyways since that would increase the odds of us not ending up in the basement again. In fact if we can get any kind of a pick for Kaberle then it helps us long term. Kaberle will be gone this summer so he won't handicap us for our future window.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
On the flipside, getting a prospect may not help us this year. In the long run though getting a prospect helps us get closer to a cup. We weren't going to win last year anyway, just like we're not going to win anything this year. So getting a prospect who can develop with us NOW while we aren't winning anything will set us up better in two or three years when maybe we will be in a position to win.

I know it seems counter intuitive but it's true. Sometimes you take a step back to go two steps ahead. We haven't made moves like this in a long, long time and it's why we've spun our wheels for as long as we have.
Maybe this will help explain it better, getting the prospect doesn't get you closer to the cup, it gets you a small chance to get closer to the cup. And there are negatives with trading the vet such as hurting the development of prospects which is why it's risky.

I have no problems with taking one step back to take two step forwards. But that's not reality, it's take one step back for a chance to take two steps forward. The % chance depends on how good of a pick/prospect you get in return. A late 1st gives you a small chance, a top pick gives a very good chance.

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02-13-2013, 08:55 AM
  #817
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
proof ?
What a disagreeable useless post. It is highly likely we do not finish bottom 3 if we kept those players. Why do you disagree for the sake of it? Mods please watch for the one line answers....

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02-13-2013, 09:06 AM
  #818
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
for those thinking only winners are the one who tanked and got high end picks, as if losers didnt, hence who everyone should do it...

here's the list of all the team in the league without a top 5 overall pick in their line-up :

DETROIT RED WINGS.

/end of list
Now tell me how many of those top five picks are 25 and under, on teams with a decent chance of winning the cup in the next 3 years.

Because that is what we're talking about. Nice try though.


Last edited by bsl: 02-13-2013 at 11:50 PM.
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02-13-2013, 09:08 AM
  #819
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What a disagreeable useless post. It is highly likely we do not finish bottom 3 if we kept those players. Why do you disagree for the sake of it? Mods please watch for the one line answers....
loks like the ones doing so, if has been shown by another poster that we were no better with said players in the line-up, yet the guy I replyed to was affirmative, we wouldnt have a top 3 pick with these guys still on our team.

It waas shown that the guy was wrong (again).


Stop whining about people making one liners and what you consider stupid responses. Quality wise, the one liner you quoted is WAY higher than the quote in it (he has been proven WRONG).

You want smart awnsers and smart comments ? fine, start by doing so yourself.

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02-13-2013, 09:09 AM
  #820
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
for those thinking only winners are the one who tanked and got high end picks, as if losers didnt, hence who everyone should do it...

here's the list of all the team in the league without a top 5 overall pick in their line-up :

DETROIT RED WINGS.

/end of list
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Originally Posted by haburger View Post
ouch!!!!!!how are the tankers (i mean quitters) gonna respond to that??
Ouch!!! I just did.

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02-13-2013, 09:10 AM
  #821
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Now tell me how man of those top five picks are 25 an under, on teams with a decent chance of winning the cup in the next 3 years.

Because that is what we're talking about. Nice try though.
So, having top picks isnt enough...

now these top picks HAVE to be under 25, and they HAVE to be center pieces of a cup winning team within the next 3 years...

really ?

you're serious ?

and you're complaining people arent making smart posts ?

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02-13-2013, 09:11 AM
  #822
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
for those thinking only winners are the one who tanked and got high end picks, as if losers didnt, hence who everyone should do it...

here's the list of all the team in the league without a top 5 overall pick in their line-up :

DETROIT RED WINGS.

/end of list
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ouch!!!!!!how are the tankers (i mean quitters) gonna respond to that??
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsl View Post
Now tell me how man of those top five picks are 25 an under, on teams with a decent chance of winning the cup in the next 3 years.

Because that is what we're talking about. Nice try though.
In case you missed it.

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02-13-2013, 09:18 AM
  #823
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One aspect of the whole "tank" and "don't tank" debate is the impact it has on your players production/value and young player development.

1-If you have player X who is a decent player but has grown up in Columbus or NYI and player Y who played on cup winners in Detroit or Pittsburgh and they have exactly the sake skill. Who do you think will get more in return by trade? The Gill to Nash trade is a perfect example, if he had little to no playoff experience or success, I'm sure we never get a 2nd for Gill.

2-It's harder for any player to produce when playing under a losing culture, very hard mentally. Instead of having a productive asset all of a sudden you have a "salary dump" that you get nothing for.

3-by the same token it's harder for young players. Not just in the losing culture but having the pressure of having to "ressurect" the franchise instead of just developing into a good player as part of a winning team.

If "tanking" would guarantee you a Crosby and Malkin in 2 years, then success within 2-3 years, then everybody, even Brian Burke would do it. But it's not like that, For every Crosby or Malkin you have a lot of Hortons, Bouwmeester Halls Turris Alzner E.Johnson Staals etc who are very good but not superstars plus a few Filatov Barker Zherdev Pouliot who are basically top 5 busts.

In the cap world, it makes little sense to really"tank" like some are proposing. If you draft and develop well, use yout cap space wisely and manage your assets you can go from 12th to cup contender in 2 years if you have a pretty good base.
Who the hell here has suggested we build a cup winner with 23 top five picks? Pick up the pace a little please?

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02-13-2013, 09:24 AM
  #824
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In case you missed it.
No worries, I didnt.

Besides, I dont expect much from you or DAC, you're so deep in yor fantasy all you're doing is debating that doing exactly what every single team goes trough at some point in their history, winners, bottom feeders, 8th to 10th place teams, teams that won it all, teams that never won anything, EVERY single one of them... is what we should focus on, is the dumbest thing ever.

wether it's this year, in five years or in 25 years, the Habs, just like every other team in the league, will get at least another top 5 pick, maybe even a 3rd like last season or a 1st overall...

Chicago didnt tank, they sucked, Pittsburgh didnt tank, they sucked, Washington didnt tank, they sucked.

we should do like them, suck for 20 to 40 years so we can win a cup, MAYBE...

get over your little fantasy, sucking isnt a strategy, it's just that, sucking.

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02-13-2013, 09:28 AM
  #825
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Who the hell here has suggested we build a cup winner with 23 top five picks? Pick up the pace a little please?
how many top 5 picks is required in your opinion ?

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