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Brian Boyle (The "He just plain sucks" Edition)

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Old
02-13-2013, 12:40 AM
  #401
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3 in a row. don't screw with anything yet.

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02-13-2013, 07:46 AM
  #402
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Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
3 in a row. don't screw with anything yet.
Weren't we 3-0 in the playoffs when Boyle was out?

Let's keep it rolling!

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02-13-2013, 08:48 AM
  #403
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Originally Posted by SnowblindNYR View Post
Meanwhile we're throwing away this season playing with 2 4th lines.
You keep saying this, I think you are unclear on the typical setup of a team's four lines. I know this is not the way it is required to be set up, but teams often do this, because it is seems to provide the best matchups.

First line - most talented scorers, often contains some size for protection and grinding ability to work the puck out of the dirty places and set up stars. Can be on the ice at any time, but if you get an opportunity to throw them on against tired legs or defensive liabilities these are the guys you choose. Also, these are usually your guys taking the offensive zone faceoffs, and virtually never the defensive zone starts due to their typical lack of defensive acumen.

Second line - secondary scorers, set up much the same way as the first, but often with a bit more responsible players in their own end. Typically deploy them if you first line is too tired for the offensive zone faceoff, but also if your checking line is too tired for the defensive zone faceoff. Often you can get them matched up against the less defensively responsible players on the other team as they are focused the star powered top line, which can lead to bolstered statistics.

Checking line - These are the guys you want to match up against the other team's first line. Your most talented and hard working defensively responsible players belong here. They start virtually every shift in their own zone against the Crosbys, Tavareses, and Eliases of the world. While some may argue that the best defense is a good offense and puck possession, it is difficult to expect the other team's best players to not have much, if any, possession of the puck. And that is how you get caught with Richards and Gaborik coasting around and trying to protect a lead in their own zone. This is where Brian Boyle comes out to be so valuable. Crosby will not always be pinned in his own zone, and when he is possessing the puck in your zone, you need guys like Brian Boyle, Ryan Callahan, Darryl Powe, etc. to hunt them down and get in front of their shots/passes. Every once in a while, the player son this line will chip in with some points, but these should all be considered bonus points as they often come against the best players on the other team. Everybody would love a 60 point third liner, but if you find one, I would bet they are truly more of a second liner, or will become one soon.

Fourth line - Energy, board play, special teams, young guys getting a shot. This is not where you put your most defensively responsible forwards because that means they usually will end up playing with guys like Kreider, or Asham, who often look like pylons. Short shifts for energy boosts.

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02-13-2013, 08:53 AM
  #404
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The funny thing is, Hagelin started off scoring quite a bit right after he was called up last year. Who was his center? Brian Boyle.

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02-13-2013, 09:33 AM
  #405
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Originally Posted by bogans View Post
You keep saying this, I think you are unclear on the typical setup of a team's four lines. I know this is not the way it is required to be set up, but teams often do this, because it is seems to provide the best matchups.

First line - most talented scorers, often contains some size for protection and grinding ability to work the puck out of the dirty places and set up stars. Can be on the ice at any time, but if you get an opportunity to throw them on against tired legs or defensive liabilities these are the guys you choose. Also, these are usually your guys taking the offensive zone faceoffs, and virtually never the defensive zone starts due to their typical lack of defensive acumen.

Second line - secondary scorers, set up much the same way as the first, but often with a bit more responsible players in their own end. Typically deploy them if you first line is too tired for the offensive zone faceoff, but also if your checking line is too tired for the defensive zone faceoff. Often you can get them matched up against the less defensively responsible players on the other team as they are focused the star powered top line, which can lead to bolstered statistics.

Checking line - These are the guys you want to match up against the other team's first line. Your most talented and hard working defensively responsible players belong here. They start virtually every shift in their own zone against the Crosbys, Tavareses, and Eliases of the world. While some may argue that the best defense is a good offense and puck possession, it is difficult to expect the other team's best players to not have much, if any, possession of the puck. And that is how you get caught with Richards and Gaborik coasting around and trying to protect a lead in their own zone. This is where Brian Boyle comes out to be so valuable. Crosby will not always be pinned in his own zone, and when he is possessing the puck in your zone, you need guys like Brian Boyle, Ryan Callahan, Darryl Powe, etc. to hunt them down and get in front of their shots/passes. Every once in a while, the player son this line will chip in with some points, but these should all be considered bonus points as they often come against the best players on the other team. Everybody would love a 60 point third liner, but if you find one, I would bet they are truly more of a second liner, or will become one soon.

Fourth line - Energy, board play, special teams, young guys getting a shot. This is not where you put your most defensively responsible forwards because that means they usually will end up playing with guys like Kreider, or Asham, who often look like pylons. Short shifts for energy boosts.
This is a very good analysis and I agree with most of it. The problem is Boyle's skating (he's not good at hunting down; he tries to block passes and shots). He is not good enough on his skates to take the puck away even if he is fortunate enough to find himself in a position to do so.

He has been getting defensive minutes the last couple of years due to necessity (weakness in our center position). However, he does not skate well enough to be a long term solution to the need for a shut down center. Same with Stepan. However, Miller can be that guy. I don't know what the team will do with Miller but if Boyle centers our third line we have two 4th lines. Also, you assume you can always get the matchups you want and even at home because of double shifting and the like this is easier said than done. To be a top notch team you want three lines that can pressure you opponents offensively. Most teams 3rd D pair is pretty weak. The ability to exploit this is extremely valuable.

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02-13-2013, 09:34 AM
  #406
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Originally Posted by bogans View Post
You keep saying this, I think you are unclear on the typical setup of a team's four lines. I know this is not the way it is required to be set up, but teams often do this, because it is seems to provide the best matchups.

First line - most talented scorers, often contains some size for protection and grinding ability to work the puck out of the dirty places and set up stars. Can be on the ice at any time, but if you get an opportunity to throw them on against tired legs or defensive liabilities these are the guys you choose. Also, these are usually your guys taking the offensive zone faceoffs, and virtually never the defensive zone starts due to their typical lack of defensive acumen.

Second line - secondary scorers, set up much the same way as the first, but often with a bit more responsible players in their own end. Typically deploy them if you first line is too tired for the offensive zone faceoff, but also if your checking line is too tired for the defensive zone faceoff. Often you can get them matched up against the less defensively responsible players on the other team as they are focused the star powered top line, which can lead to bolstered statistics.

Checking line - These are the guys you want to match up against the other team's first line. Your most talented and hard working defensively responsible players belong here. They start virtually every shift in their own zone against the Crosbys, Tavareses, and Eliases of the world. While some may argue that the best defense is a good offense and puck possession, it is difficult to expect the other team's best players to not have much, if any, possession of the puck. And that is how you get caught with Richards and Gaborik coasting around and trying to protect a lead in their own zone. This is where Brian Boyle comes out to be so valuable. Crosby will not always be pinned in his own zone, and when he is possessing the puck in your zone, you need guys like Brian Boyle, Ryan Callahan, Darryl Powe, etc. to hunt them down and get in front of their shots/passes. Every once in a while, the player son this line will chip in with some points, but these should all be considered bonus points as they often come against the best players on the other team. Everybody would love a 60 point third liner, but if you find one, I would bet they are truly more of a second liner, or will become one soon.

Fourth line - Energy, board play, special teams, young guys getting a shot. This is not where you put your most defensively responsible forwards because that means they usually will end up playing with guys like Kreider, or Asham, who often look like pylons. Short shifts for energy boosts.
I don't want a 60 point third line center. I want a 3rd line center than can skate and pass a little.

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02-13-2013, 09:56 AM
  #407
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
The funny thing is, Hagelin started off scoring quite a bit right after he was called up last year. Who was his center? Brian Boyle.
Yes, John Mitchell and Carl Hagelin worked very well together for several games. Their center was a bystander. That line played together for about a month and Boyle didn't assist on a single goal that Hags scored and he had a second assist on one of Mitch's goals. During that time frame Brian Boyle scored exactly zero goals.

If you check the score sheet you couldn't be positive who their center was. This giving Boyle credit where it clearly isn't due is getting tiresome. And guess what? He's still not dressing.

All you are doing with these false compliments is fueling those who don't think he should be playing. If that is your goal, nicely played.

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02-13-2013, 10:01 AM
  #408
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
Yes, John Mitchell and Carl Hagelin worked very well together for several games. Their center was a bystander. That line played together for about a month and Boyle didn't assist on a single goal that Hags scored and he had a second assist on one of Mitch's goals. During that time frame Brian Boyle scored exactly zero goals.

If you check the score sheet you couldn't be positive who their center was. This giving Boyle credit where it clearly isn't due is getting tiresome. And guess what? He's still not dressing.

All you are doing with these false compliments is fueling those who don't think he should be playing. If that is your goal, nicely played.
Right, that's why Torts and Hagelin even stated that having Boyle on their line was the reason they were able to forget about the defensive end and just play their game. Torts did that on purpose. Put (2) players still earning the system and the defensive side of the puck on his line.

All you just did is show everyone who realizes Boyle has value to this team exactly why they shouldn't bother even discussing this with you. You have a blind hatred for everything Brian Boyle.

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02-13-2013, 10:07 AM
  #409
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I vote Boyle is a good 4th line center who can fill in on the 3rd line but it's better for the Rangers if they had someone a little more offensively talented and creative on the 3rd line.

Rangers have 3 RW who can all be top 6, They have 3 LW who can all play top 9, 2 of which may be top 6. If Miller becomes a top 9 center, they do not have the conventional two scoring lines, a checking line and a 4th line.

I expect Boyle to get back in the line-up. Rangers may feel Miller is not quite ready. Halpern may regress some. Injuries happen. He'll get his chance to prove the doubters wrong, Torts likes him enough to give him that chance.

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02-13-2013, 10:34 AM
  #410
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Everybody saying 3 in a row, no need for Boyle is insane. If anything, last night proves we need Boyle back in. We were up 3-0 in the third period and nearly blew the game. One of the reasons we were so great in the third last season, was because of Boyle's shutdown game.

Last night was a clear reason as to why boyle should be in this lineup over Asham.

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02-13-2013, 10:46 AM
  #411
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Originally Posted by bogans View Post
You keep saying this, I think you are unclear on the typical setup of a team's four lines. I know this is not the way it is required to be set up, but teams often do this, because it is seems to provide the best matchups.

First line - most talented scorers, often contains some size for protection and grinding ability to work the puck out of the dirty places and set up stars. Can be on the ice at any time, but if you get an opportunity to throw them on against tired legs or defensive liabilities these are the guys you choose. Also, these are usually your guys taking the offensive zone faceoffs, and virtually never the defensive zone starts due to their typical lack of defensive acumen.

Second line - secondary scorers, set up much the same way as the first, but often with a bit more responsible players in their own end. Typically deploy them if you first line is too tired for the offensive zone faceoff, but also if your checking line is too tired for the defensive zone faceoff. Often you can get them matched up against the less defensively responsible players on the other team as they are focused the star powered top line, which can lead to bolstered statistics.

Checking line - These are the guys you want to match up against the other team's first line. Your most talented and hard working defensively responsible players belong here. They start virtually every shift in their own zone against the Crosbys, Tavareses, and Eliases of the world. While some may argue that the best defense is a good offense and puck possession, it is difficult to expect the other team's best players to not have much, if any, possession of the puck. And that is how you get caught with Richards and Gaborik coasting around and trying to protect a lead in their own zone. This is where Brian Boyle comes out to be so valuable. Crosby will not always be pinned in his own zone, and when he is possessing the puck in your zone, you need guys like Brian Boyle, Ryan Callahan, Darryl Powe, etc. to hunt them down and get in front of their shots/passes. Every once in a while, the player son this line will chip in with some points, but these should all be considered bonus points as they often come against the best players on the other team. Everybody would love a 60 point third liner, but if you find one, I would bet they are truly more of a second liner, or will become one soon.

Fourth line - Energy, board play, special teams, young guys getting a shot. This is not where you put your most defensively responsible forwards because that means they usually will end up playing with guys like Kreider, or Asham, who often look like pylons. Short shifts for energy boosts.
I am not sure if this is or has been the case the last 20 years.

You just see more and more teams with a PP unit and 3 even lines and a 4th line. And often kind of a mixed 4th line too with talent on it.

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02-13-2013, 10:56 AM
  #412
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
Right, that's why Torts and Hagelin even stated that having Boyle on their line was the reason they were able to forget about the defensive end and just play their game. Torts did that on purpose. Put (2) players still earning the system and the defensive side of the puck on his line.

All you just did is show everyone who realizes Boyle has value to this team exactly why they shouldn't bother even discussing this with you. You have a blind hatred for everything Brian Boyle.
Wow what a stretch. Torts doesn't let anyone including Gabby and Richie the ability or the flexibility to forget about the defensive end. What the heck are you talking about? This might be the biggest stretch to justify an argument gone bad that I have seen.

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02-13-2013, 10:59 AM
  #413
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Originally Posted by 16 To Stanley View Post
Everybody saying 3 in a row, no need for Boyle is insane. If anything, last night proves we need Boyle back in. We were up 3-0 in the third period and nearly blew the game. One of the reasons we were so great in the third last season, was because of Boyle's shutdown game.

Last night was a clear reason as to why boyle should be in this lineup over Asham.
Yep, they needed Boyle against Ottawa last year when we blew a 3 goal lead in the 3rd period. Also against Chicago when we blew a 2-1 lead in the 3rd. Surely Boyle would never allow that to happen!

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02-13-2013, 11:00 AM
  #414
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Originally Posted by 16 To Stanley View Post
Everybody saying 3 in a row, no need for Boyle is insane. If anything, last night proves we need Boyle back in. We were up 3-0 in the third period and nearly blew the game. One of the reasons we were so great in the third last season, was because of Boyle's shutdown game.

Last night was a clear reason as to why boyle should be in this lineup over Asham.
I knew you would say that; you are getting predictable. Asham played well last night as did his linemates. All three Bruin goals were with an extra skater and Halpern went 9 for 11 on draws. Sorry, the Bruins got some bounces and tied it up. there's no reason to think that BB would have prevented it. Boyle has no shutdown game. When we were great in the 3rd last year it was because of our superior conditioning. We would keep the pressure on for three periods and score timely goals. BB does neither of those things on any kind of a regular basis. You should walk from this argument until your coach actually puts him in a game. And when that happens there will be much fun to have for all of us dissecting his game. I'm sure we won't agree but at least we'll have something current to debate.

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02-13-2013, 11:04 AM
  #415
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Don't really think the presence of Boyle would have prevented last night's collapse. Maybe he would have helped our board play but he has had issues with getting pinned our own zone which was a problem last night.

Neither Asham or Halpern were the issue last night. I thought the 4th line played decent, they had a few good shifts in the offensive zone. Asham had a nice scoring chance in the 2nd period. I don't think that line should be split up to get Boyle back in the lineup.

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02-13-2013, 11:31 AM
  #416
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I knew you would say that; you are getting predictable. Asham played well last night as did his linemates. All three Bruin goals were with an extra skater and Halpern went 9 for 11 on draws. Sorry, the Bruins got some bounces and tied it up. there's no reason to think that BB would have prevented it. Boyle has no shutdown game. When we were great in the 3rd last year it was because of our superior conditioning. We would keep the pressure on for three periods and score timely goals. BB does neither of those things on any kind of a regular basis. You should walk from this argument until your coach actually puts him in a game. And when that happens there will be much fun to have for all of us dissecting his game. I'm sure we won't agree but at least we'll have something current to debate.
Superior Conditioning and a defensive line led by Brian Boyle.

Again, opinions opinions, with no facts. All i saw last night, was Halpern getting pinned and not preventing goals at a crucial time.

Boyle got pinned often last year, but nearly every game he was a big part of holding each lead we had in the third period, pinned or not.

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02-13-2013, 12:08 PM
  #417
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Superior Conditioning and a defensive line led by Brian Boyle.

Again, opinions opinions, with no facts. All i saw last night, was Halpern getting pinned and not preventing goals at a crucial time.

Boyle got pinned often last year, but nearly every game he was a big part of holding each lead we had in the third period, pinned or not.
Let's start from the beginning. After the Earth cooled there were things called blogs. Those blogs were deemed to be opinion forums. This is one of those blogs. If you are not interested in other people's opinions go read a textbook. And btw sparky, Halpern winning 9 out of 11 draws is a fact.

Now regarding our strong 3rd period play last year. It was not really about protecting leads (although we obviously held on to most leads as every team does). It was about coming into the 3rd tied or down a goal and winning the game. So, the impression you have that somehow our 3rd period success was a function of our unbelievable shut down 3rd line center prohibiting all opposing forwards from entering our zone, is complete and utter nonsense. And factually incorrect.

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02-13-2013, 12:13 PM
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Let's start from the beginning. After the Earth cooled there were things called blogs. Those blogs were deemed to be opinion forums. This is one of those blogs. If you are not interested in other people's opinions go read a textbook. And btw sparky, Halpern winning 9 out of 11 draws is a fact.

Now regarding our strong 3rd period play last year. It was not really about protecting leads (although we obviously held on to most leads as every team does). It was about coming into the 3rd tied or down a goal and winning the game. So, the impression you have that somehow our 3rd period success was a function of our unbelievable shut down 3rd line center prohibiting all opposing forwards from entering our zone, is complete and utter nonsense. And factually incorrect.
The Rangers were the only team in the NHL last year during the regular season, to not lose one game when leading after 2 periods....fact. And great, Halpern was awesome on faceoffs. he was also on the ice for the tying going and was skating around like a chicken with his head cut off.

Again, I'm not advocating Boyle in for Halpern. i think boyle should be in over asham.

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02-13-2013, 12:19 PM
  #419
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Don't really think the presence of Boyle would have prevented last night's collapse.
Maybe not. But the guy that everyone is saying can do his job was trusted to play 3:03 in the third period protecting the lead including no time in the final three minutes.

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02-13-2013, 12:48 PM
  #420
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Wow what a stretch. Torts doesn't let anyone including Gabby and Richie the ability or the flexibility to forget about the defensive end. What the heck are you talking about? This might be the biggest stretch to justify an argument gone bad that I have seen.
Chris Kreider puts a massive hole in your argument.

He also said is first season that he was going to let Gaborik do his thing.

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02-13-2013, 02:38 PM
  #421
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Chris Kreider puts a massive hole in your argument.

He also said is first season that he was going to let Gaborik do his thing.
Kreider is not getting a pass on playing good defensive hockey. What makes you think that? Regarding gabby, torts has pulicly called him out for missed assignments and lazy changes. Gabby has to play the system just like everyone if he wants to get the ice time he is used to.

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02-13-2013, 02:41 PM
  #422
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Kreider is not getting a pass on playing good defensive hockey. What makes you think that? Regarding gabby, torts has pulicly called him out for missed assignments and lazy changes. Gabby has to play the system just like everyone if he wants to get the ice time he is used to.
Torts has come out and said this year how happy he is with the way Gaborik has changed his game to fit this teams style.

He went so far as to say, when Torts joined the Rangers, that he completely doubted Gabby and didn't think he would be a fit.

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02-13-2013, 02:41 PM
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Maybe not. But the guy that everyone is saying can do his job was trusted to play 3:03 in the third period protecting the lead including no time in the final three minutes.
Who really understands how Torts determines who shpuld be on the ice?

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02-13-2013, 02:55 PM
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Who really understands how Torts determines who shpuld be on the ice?
lets not act like if boyle had played last night and was out there for that time, that you wouldn't be using that as an argument.

We all know torts rides the guys he trusts in the third period when we are sheltering a lead.

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02-13-2013, 02:58 PM
  #425
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Who really understands how Torts determines who shpuld be on the ice?
I don't have an algorithm but I think it's largely built on trust.

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