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02-13-2013, 11:56 AM
  #151
Agnostic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Lemoche View Post
Maybe you should do the same.

PK IMO is already a more dominant player than Markov and I don't care one bit about flashiness... in fact, it's his well-rounded play that I like the most.

We all know defensemen usually take longer to develop but let's look at PK's progression starting from the AHL:

- Was integrated "slowly" in his first AHL season... about halfway through the season, he became the no 1 defenseman.

- Finished his first and only AHL season with 18 goals, 53 points and a +46 ratings despite more limited responsibilities at the start of the season.

- Gets called up at the end of that season play the final 2 games (2 assists) and the playoffs in which he played a HUGE part getting 8 points in 14 games playing top 2 minutes and often playing against the top line (the guy had 2 NHL games before those playoffs FFS !)

- Gets 14 goals and 38 points in his rookie season. Is already given top line shutdown pairing duties. Gets 4 points in 7 games in the POs and scores the tying goal to get us in the 7th game OT against the Bruins.

- Gets 36 points in his second season on a last place team. Gets shutdown role more than ever and manages to finish at +9 on an horrible year for the Habs. Often plays up to 30 minutes a game and is heavily relied on in every important situation. Him, Gorges and the first line were the only bright spot of that season.

And you guys say we overrate him because he's flashy ?? Are you kidding me ?

As long as there's people like you around, he's far from overrated. I mean what the hell are you watching ?
American history X and Mississippi Burning?


Last edited by Agnostic: 02-13-2013 at 12:18 PM.
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Old
02-13-2013, 12:15 PM
  #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Lemoche View Post
Maybe you should do the same.

PK IMO is already a more dominant player than Markov and I don't care one bit about flashiness... in fact, it's his well-rounded play that I like the most.

We all know defensemen usually take longer to develop but let's look at PK's progression starting from the AHL:

- Was integrated "slowly" in his first AHL season... about halfway through the season, he became the no 1 defenseman.

- Finished his first and only AHL season with 18 goals, 53 points and a +46 ratings despite more limited responsibilities at the start of the season.

- Gets called up at the end of that season play the final 2 games (2 assists) and the playoffs in which he played a HUGE part getting 8 points in 14 games playing top 2 minutes and often playing against the top line (the guy had 2 NHL games before those playoffs FFS !)

- Gets 14 goals and 38 points in his rookie season. Is already given top line shutdown pairing duties. Gets 4 points in 7 games in the POs and scores the tying goal to get us in the 7th game OT against the Bruins.

- Gets 36 points in his second season on a last place team. Gets shutdown role more than ever and manages to finish at +9 on an horrible year for the Habs. Often plays up to 30 minutes a game and is heavily relied on in every important situation. Him, Gorges and the first line were the only bright spot of that season.

And you guys say we overrate him because he's flashy ?? Are you kidding me ?

As long as there's people like you around, he's far from overrated. I mean what the hell are you watching ?
so, what you're saying is, you didnt read any post in this thread, I see.

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02-13-2013, 12:26 PM
  #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Lemoche View Post
Maybe you should do the same.

PK IMO is already a more dominant player than Markov and I don't care one bit about flashiness... in fact, it's his well-rounded play that I like the most.

We all know defensemen usually take longer to develop but let's look at PK's progression starting from the AHL:

- Was integrated "slowly" in his first AHL season... about halfway through the season, he became the no 1 defenseman.

- Finished his first and only AHL season with 18 goals, 53 points and a +46 ratings despite more limited responsibilities at the start of the season.

- Gets called up at the end of that season play the final 2 games (2 assists) and the playoffs in which he played a HUGE part getting 8 points in 14 games playing top 2 minutes and often playing against the top line (the guy had 2 NHL games before those playoffs FFS !)

- Gets 14 goals and 38 points in his rookie season. Is already given top line shutdown pairing duties. Gets 4 points in 7 games in the POs and scores the tying goal to get us in the 7th game OT against the Bruins.

- Gets 36 points in his second season on a last place team. Gets shutdown role more than ever and manages to finish at +9 on an horrible year for the Habs. Often plays up to 30 minutes a game and is heavily relied on in every important situation. Him, Gorges and the first line were the only bright spot of that season.

And you guys say we overrate him because he's flashy ?? Are you kidding me ?

As long as there's people like you around, he's far from overrated. I mean what the hell are you watching ?
Post of the day folks !

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02-13-2013, 12:27 PM
  #154
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He looks ****ing great get him on the ice mich u ****

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02-13-2013, 12:29 PM
  #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
American history X and Mississippi Burning?
bam.

also, nice post, Bob.

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02-13-2013, 12:34 PM
  #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Lemoche View Post
Maybe you should do the same.

PK IMO is already a more dominant player than Markov and I don't care one bit about flashiness... in fact, it's his well-rounded play that I like the most.

We all know defensemen usually take longer to develop but let's look at PK's progression starting from the AHL:

- Was integrated "slowly" in his first AHL season... about halfway through the season, he became the no 1 defenseman.

- Finished his first and only AHL season with 18 goals, 53 points and a +46 ratings despite more limited responsibilities at the start of the season.

- Gets called up at the end of that season play the final 2 games (2 assists) and the playoffs in which he played a HUGE part getting 8 points in 14 games playing top 2 minutes and often playing against the top line (the guy had 2 NHL games before those playoffs FFS !)

- Gets 14 goals and 38 points in his rookie season. Is already given top line shutdown pairing duties. Gets 4 points in 7 games in the POs and scores the tying goal to get us in the 7th game OT against the Bruins.

- Gets 36 points in his second season on a last place team. Gets shutdown role more than ever and manages to finish at +9 on an horrible year for the Habs. Often plays up to 30 minutes a game and is heavily relied on in every important situation. Him, Gorges and the first line were the only bright spot of that season.

And you guys say we overrate him because he's flashy ?? Are you kidding me ?

As long as there's people like you around, he's far from overrated. I mean what the hell are you watching ?
What a joke!

Ok it's not his flashiness that gets you. So, you like his positioning and decision making in his own zone? You like his ability to make a crisp breakout pass under pressure to beat the forecheck instead of having to always chip it out? Or is it how high he can flip it on his backhand up the middle(turnover) to clear the zone? On offense I'm sure you love his slapshot, but what about his knack for staring down his receivers? how about him standing still with the puck so as to never open up passing lanes?

I could go on and on. These are things that he will/should get better at but if you want to be called a #1 dman then these are generally not issues that are brought up against you. But I bet you think our coaching staff and deep management team are racists or idiots for not paying him and playing him like our best defenseman. Right?

PKs been solid so far considering he had no training camp and I like what the coaching staff is doing with him, but he has not been even close to our best defender this year. I like that he's playing a little calmer and trying to make the right plays instead of the arcade ones, but that 3-1 goal last night, holy crap was that terrible. I understand having a brain cramp or getting beat due to your limitations, but that may have been one of the ugliest series of defensive plays he has ever made. And he's made some ugly ones.

If you can't see why Markov is our best defender in most every facet then that's on you. He's a dominant offensive dman who gets the puck up the ice in a hurry and he possesses one of the better sticks in the league for all things defense (poke checking, holding the zone, pass breakups, etc.). Diaz has been a revelation this year as well. I really love the way he plays.

I'm not saying that PKs development has stalled, just that he is not anywhere near as good as some of you guys think he is. Not yet at least.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
American history X and Mississippi Burning?
I'm a black man, genius.

Edit: Hey, I won't lie, when PK first turned pro and had that awesome season in Hamilton and great playoffs with us, I was on the frontlines comparing him to the other greats/future greats. But, as I've gotten to see him play more often, I had to accept the fact that he simply is not in the upper echelon of defensemen in this league and I doubt he ever will be. That doesn't mean that he sucks, he can still be a very, very good player, but he has some serious work to do to catch up with top dogs. The sooner some of you guys realize that, the better it will be for discussion on this board


Last edited by HankyZetts: 02-13-2013 at 12:42 PM.
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Old
02-13-2013, 12:39 PM
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
What a joke!

Ok it's not his flashiness that gets you. So, you like his positioning and decision making in his own zone? You like his ability to make a crisp breakout pass under pressure to beat the forecheck instead of having to always chip it out? Or is it how high he can flip it on his backhand up the middle(turnover) to clear the zone? On offense I'm sure you love his slapshot, but what about his knack for staring down his receivers? how about him standing still with the puck so as to never open up passing lanes?

I could go on and on. These are things that he will/should get better at but if you want to be called a #1 dman then these are generally not issues that are brought up against you. But I bet you think our coaching staff and deep management team are racists or idiots for not paying him and playing him like our best defenseman. Right?

PKs been solid so far considering he had no training camp and I like what the coaching staff is doing with him, but he has not been even close to our best defender this year. I like that he's playing a little calmer and trying to make the right plays instead of the arcade ones, but that 3-1 goal last night, holy crap was that terrible. I understand having a brain cramp or getting beat due to your limitations, but that may have been one of the ugliest series of defensive plays he has ever made. And he's made some ugly ones.

If you can't see why Markov is our best defender in most every facet then that's on you. He's a dominant offensive dman who gets the puck up the ice in a hurry and he possesses one of the better sticks in the league for all things defense (poke checking, holding the zone, pass breakups, etc.). Diaz has been a revelation this year as well. I really love the way he plays.

I'm not saying that PKs development has stalled, just that he is not anywhere near as good as some of you guys think he is. Not yet at least.



I'm a black man, genius.
we' all black when the light goes out

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02-13-2013, 12:43 PM
  #158
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I really don't like the way Therrien is handling Subban.

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02-13-2013, 12:43 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
American history X and Mississippi Burning?
Good one. Post of the week.

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Old
02-13-2013, 12:45 PM
  #160
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PK Subban is the best overall defenseman on this team. He should play more than anyone on this team paired with Gorges, followed by Markov and Emelin. Therrien needs to play him more, plain and simple.

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02-13-2013, 01:17 PM
  #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zzoo View Post
Markov 24:49 min
Gorges 20:53
Emelin 19:54
Diaz 19:42
Subban 19:26
Bouillon 19:17


On average, Subban has played 9 seconds more than Bouillon, the #6D !!!
Subban has played about 25% less than Markov !
I guess we know why they wanted him on that bridge contract. They obviously do not hold him in high regard.

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02-13-2013, 01:28 PM
  #162
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This thread is an example of what happens when a players every move is examined, he's been put in a hyperbol.

Yeah he screwed up on the 1st goal yesterday but there was 2 passes after that in which the 4 other players on the ice just stood still and watched.

PK is not the best defenceman in the league, he has a lot of good and some bad to go with it but whatever way you look at it he should be on the ice when we're trying to hold a lead with a minute left in the game. He's our 2nd best defenceman at both ends and Gorges, orr 1st in our own end, is limited by size while Markov our, 1st in the offensive zone, is limited by his stamina.

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02-13-2013, 01:29 PM
  #163
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Amazing that people criticize PK for the 3-1 goal last night. He's got two guys tied up in the corner but nobody takes Pyatt all alone in the middle of the ice. PK has been the best D at generating offense since he came back. And then he's on all three goals last night. Really, what more is he supposed to do?

It bugs me that the coaches managed to wipe the smile off his face and are giving him limited minutes.

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02-13-2013, 01:30 PM
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zzoo View Post
Markov 24:49 min
Gorges 20:53
Emelin 19:54
Diaz 19:42
Subban 19:26
Bouillon 19:17


On average, Subban has played 9 seconds more than Bouillon, the #6D !!!
Subban has played about 25% less than Markov !
Only 6 games, and one of them he barely played in the 3rd because of his skate. He was the most used D Saturday against Toronto

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02-13-2013, 01:35 PM
  #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uber Coca View Post
PK Subban is the best overall defenseman on this team. He should play more than anyone on this team paired with Gorges, followed by Markov and Emelin. Therrien needs to play him more, plain and simple.
I largely agree. I think Markov might still be more of a "No. 1 D" than Subban, but it's close. And Markov is getting up there in years, while Subban is young, so I think it's better for both men for Subban to log the most minutes and Markov to be 2nd for ATOI for the D.

Perhaps Subban isn't getting many minutes yet because they're waiting for him to get more into game-shape (since he did miss a few games at the start of the season). That's what I'm hoping anyway.

Subban definitely should be logging 24 or more minutes per game if/when he's at 100%.

And I agree with you that Subban/Gorges and Emelin/Markov should be our top two pairings, in that order.

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02-13-2013, 01:40 PM
  #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottFC View Post
This thread is an example of what happens when a players every move is examined, he's been put in a hyperbol.

Yeah he screwed up on the 1st goal yesterday but there was 2 passes after that in which the 4 other players on the ice just stood still and watched.

PK is not the best defenceman in the league, he has a lot of good and some bad to go with it but whatever way you look at it he should be on the ice when we're trying to hold a lead with a minute left in the game. He's our 2nd best defenceman at both ends and Gorges, orr 1st in our own end, is limited by size while Markov our, 1st in the offensive zone, is limited by his stamina.
This is true. PK's bad plays are highly scrutinized. Markov's are ignored by most.

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02-13-2013, 01:41 PM
  #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Joker View Post
I largely agree. I think Markov might still be more of a "No. 1 D" than Subban, but it's close. And Markov is getting up there in years, while Subban is young, so I think it's better for both men for Subban to log the most minutes and Markov to be 2nd for ATOI for the D.

Perhaps Subban isn't getting many minutes yet because they're waiting for him to get more into game-shape (since he did miss a few games at the start of the season). That's what I'm hoping anyway.

Subban definitely should be logging 24 or more minutes per game if/when he's at 100%.

And I agree with you that Subban/Gorges and Emelin/Markov should be our top two pairings, in that order.
Agree 100%

I think another issue is to get Subban back to 24min a game, he needs to play with Gorges, and so far Diaz has been great with Gorges, but again, no reason why Bouillon and Daiz can't be good together.

I would have Gorges and Subban go vs other teams top line, and Markov and Emelin vs other 2nd line, less work for Markov and maybe can generate more offensive 5 on 5.

Keep Markov Diaz on the pp, and play Subban with Gorges on the pk, that would mean you're going to have either Subban or Markov on the ice for around 50min a game. Pretty damn good if you ask me.

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02-13-2013, 01:47 PM
  #168
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Agree 100%

I think another issue is to get Subban back to 24min a game, he needs to play with Gorges, and so far Diaz has been great with Gorges, but again, no reason why Bouillon and Daiz can't be good together.

I would have Gorges and Subban go vs other teams top line, and Markov and Emelin vs other 2nd line, less work for Markov and maybe can generate more offensive 5 on 5.

Keep Markov Diaz on the pp, and play Subban with Gorges on the pk, that would mean you're going to have either Subban or Markov on the ice for around 50min a game. Pretty damn good if you ask me.
Yeah, I think that's the right approach to take with our D right now.

Diaz/Bouillon is fine for a 3rd pairing.

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02-13-2013, 01:55 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by PyrettaBlaze View Post
I really don't like the way Therrien is handling Subban.
He's handling him perfectly.

There are still 36 games to go, and hopefully some playoffs games.

he will give him more and more time as the season goes.

Therrien, for the moment doesn't want to destroy his pairings that gave him, most of the time, good hockey since the beginning of this season.


In't it Therrien who said in his press conf on Day 1 that PK was a thoroubred ?

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02-13-2013, 02:02 PM
  #170
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Shutdown #1
Subban - Georges
Shutdown #2
Markov - Emelin
Shutdown #3
Diaz - Cube

Offensive pairing #1
Markov - Emelin
Offensive pairing #2
Subban - Georges
Offensive pairing #3
Diaz - Cube

Need a goal right now pairing
Markov - Subban

PP #1
Markov - Diaz
PP #2
Subban - ? (Cube on the PP is not something I like)

PK #1
Subban - Georges
PK #2
Georges - Cube (The way the league is this year, PP followed by PK is not uncommon)
PK #3
Markov - Emelin

I feel Subban deserves the most minutes but at the same time make sure no one is overplayed. He is dynamic and learns quickly.

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02-13-2013, 02:03 PM
  #171
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Amazing that people criticize PK for the 3-1 goal last night. He's got two guys tied up in the corner but nobody takes Pyatt all alone in the middle of the ice. PK has been the best D at generating offense since he came back. And then he's on all three goals last night. Really, what more is he supposed to do?

It bugs me that the coaches managed to wipe the smile off his face and are giving him limited minutes.
That's your definition of "having two guys tied up in the corner"? Come on dude, that goal is completely on PK Subban. Trying to make a fancy play with his "super backwards skating" and having one hand on his stick, then when he's already screwed up and they're heading in on an odd-man rush, he goes for one of the stupidest and weakest hits I've ever seen, taking himself completely out of the play.

It is only one play, but holy crap was it a bad one. More importantly, at that stage of the game, and with Carey pitching a shutout, there's absolutely no reason for ANY of that to happen.

Every player makes mistakes, but that one was just stupid and unnecessary.

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02-13-2013, 02:13 PM
  #172
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Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
That's your definition of "having two guys tied up in the corner"? Come on dude, that goal is completely on PK Subban. Trying to make a fancy play with his "super backwards skating" and having one hand on his stick, then when he's already screwed up and they're heading in on an odd-man rush, he goes for one of the stupidest and weakest hits I've ever seen, taking himself completely out of the play.

It is only one play, but holy crap was it a bad one. More importantly, at that stage of the game, and with Carey pitching a shutout, there's absolutely no reason for ANY of that to happen.

Every player makes mistakes, but that one was just stupid and unnecessary.
It's a bad play but Cole takes himself out exactly the same way on the same side of the ice and then DD is just floating, leaving Pyatt all alone in the middle of the ice. Somehow it's supposed to be a team sport but PK gets singled out for every single mistake. Habs were up 3-0 mostly thanks to him at that point. Can we cut him some slack?

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02-13-2013, 02:19 PM
  #173
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Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
That's your definition of "having two guys tied up in the corner"? Come on dude, that goal is completely on PK Subban. Trying to make a fancy play with his "super backwards skating" and having one hand on his stick, then when he's already screwed up and they're heading in on an odd-man rush, he goes for one of the stupidest and weakest hits I've ever seen, taking himself completely out of the play.

It is only one play, but holy crap was it a bad one. More importantly, at that stage of the game, and with Carey pitching a shutout, there's absolutely no reason for ANY of that to happen.

Every player makes mistakes, but that one was just stupid and unnecessary.
It's fans like you that entertain the eternal pressure in montreal of not producing. It's always he is good but he did this but. Stop with the but go see elsewhere Shea Weber the best dman in the league in the sense of hfboard has 1 freakin point this year and he hasn't been stellar in his zone.

Since Subban has been back he has 6 points has been playing well on both ends, yesterday he makes one bad play oh he is overrated, oh he is stalling wth. Markov made freakin horribles plays (the Komarov goal for once) in the last 4 games has anybody said oh Markov sucks, Markov is bad.


Continue on your path of bashing Subban our best or 2nd best dman while still improving.

The cup is half full not half empty.

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02-13-2013, 02:27 PM
  #174
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Originally Posted by DenverHabsFan View Post
It's a bad play but Cole takes himself out exactly the same way on the same side of the ice and then DD is just floating, leaving Pyatt all alone in the middle of the ice. Somehow it's supposed to be a team sport but PK gets singled out for every single mistake. Habs were up 3-0 mostly thanks to him at that point. Can we cut him some slack?
Had Pk just stayed in position, Cole wouldn't have had a chance to look horrible trying to cover for him on that play.

Believe me when I tell you that I do not single out every one of PKs mistakes, even though there are lots. Not on here at least. My tv hears about every mistake that anyone wearing the CH makes, but I'm not going to be here whining for everything. That's not me.

And "mostly thanks to him"? Come on...

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02-13-2013, 02:32 PM
  #175
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I just think its unacceptable at a coach to have Diaz on the ice for the final minutes when you are protecting a lead. I like Diaz, lots of potential there but his success so far has been on the power play with Markov. Doesn't mean Subban had to be on, it could have been anyone else except for Diaz ( the #6 D-man).

I also don't understand how Subban did not get on the ice for an entire 2 minute power play in OT, especially when it looked like Markov was completely gassed. I mean you had Gionta and Deharnais in the point position for stretches of that power play.

To me its just Therrien being stubborn and trying to prove a point with Subban.
What Therrien fails to realize is that he is coaching in the NHL not junior hockey. In the NHL coaches do not win in these situations with players.
Coaches get fired players do not.

If you have a player like Subban and you are not using him in situations like the OT last night you are "cutting off your nose to spite our face".

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