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Is Teemu Selanne a top 10 forward of all time?

View Poll Results: Is Teemu Selanne a Top 10 forward of all time
Yes 54 15.43%
No 296 84.57%
Voters: 350. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-12-2013, 10:33 PM
  #126
pdd
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Originally Posted by Litework View Post
But we arent talking about Graves and Stevens are we? RW was very strong between 92-2001 (stronger than Centre some years)
Ok, I'll bite. In what years was RW stronger than a field of centers containing most or all of Yzerman, Fedorov, Sakic, Forsberg, Lemieux, Gretzky, Messier, Lindros, Francis, Yashin, Modano, Sundin?

Also please remember that it's a year Selanne needs to end up in the top five forwards.

I would personally slot Selanne among the top five FORWARDS in 1992-93, 1997-98, and 1998-99. 1997-98 is the only one of those three I think even comes close to fitting your argument, with strong seasons from Bure and Bondra in addition to Jagr and Selanne among top players. But the top centers were still better.

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02-12-2013, 11:18 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Ok, I'll bite. In what years was RW stronger than a field of centers containing most or all of Yzerman, Fedorov, Sakic, Forsberg, Lemieux, Gretzky, Messier, Lindros, Francis, Yashin, Modano, Sundin?

Also please remember that it's a year Selanne needs to end up in the top five forwards.

I would personally slot Selanne among the top five FORWARDS in 1992-93, 1997-98, and 1998-99. 1997-98 is the only one of those three I think even comes close to fitting your argument, with strong seasons from Bure and Bondra in addition to Jagr and Selanne among top players. But the top centers were still better.
97-98 and 99-2000.

And how was Selanne not a top 5 forward in 96-97?


Last edited by Evincar: 02-12-2013 at 11:24 PM.
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02-13-2013, 12:23 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Litework View Post
97-98 and 99-2000.

And how was Selanne not a top 5 forward in 96-97?
1) Lemieux.

2) Jagr and Kariya both scored in the high 90s playing under 70 games.

3) Lindros scored 79 in only 52 games.

4) Forsberg scored 86 in 65 AND was second place in Selke voting.

Forsberg is the only player I have listed who was behind Selanne in PPG, and he wasn't behind by much. A Selke nomination is certainly worth at least 0.08 points per game - or 6.5 points in a full season - wouldn't you say?

As for 1999-00, it's true that RW did have a solid year. But you're leaving out an important fact: Selanne finished seventh in All-Star voting. I personally rank him fourth among RW for that year, but again center strength pushes him out.

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02-13-2013, 01:03 AM
  #129
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02-13-2013, 05:08 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Litework View Post
But we arent talking about Graves and Stevens are we? RW was very strong between 92-2001 (stronger than Centre some years), when Selanne played his best stretch of hockey. I'm well aware that the 2nd best LW is no where near the 3rd best Center. All-Star teams like everything, need to be put in context.
I don't know, are you? If you want to talk about post season all-stars as "proof" of whether or not someone is a "top X player" as opposed to having had a "top season among those at the same position", I'll list all the people you're talking about competing for those positions.

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Originally Posted by Litework View Post
If you had looked a little harder you would have seen that in all of Selanne's AST selections he placed 2,2,5,5 in scoring. I guess that technically makes him a "top 3-5" player as that poster was asking.

There's your proof.
Spezza, Kovalchuk, and Kessel were 4th, 5th, and 6th in scoring last year. Know who wasn't in the top 5? Crosby, Kopitar, Gaborik, St. Louis, Neal, the Sedins, Thornton, Tavares, Ovechkin, etc. It's fine to point out that Selanne was a top 5 scorer. That part is fact, and can't be taken away. Neither that, nor the all-star finishes, though, proves anything about where someone would end up on an "overall ranking".

Refer to Selanne as a top 5 scorer in those years all you want, but don't pretend there are no holes in your all-star (and now attempted points finish) defense(s) if you want to stretch that further into the "overall".

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02-13-2013, 05:45 AM
  #131
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He is rich mans Peter Bondra.
Yeah, but Bill Gates level rich.

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02-13-2013, 05:59 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
I don't know, are you? If you want to talk about post season all-stars as "proof" of whether or not someone is a "top X player" as opposed to having had a "top season among those at the same position", I'll list all the people you're talking about competing for those positions.



Spezza, Kovalchuk, and Kessel were 4th, 5th, and 6th in scoring last year. Know who wasn't in the top 5? Crosby, Kopitar, Gaborik, St. Louis, Neal, the Sedins, Thornton, Tavares, Ovechkin, etc. It's fine to point out that Selanne was a top 5 scorer. That part is fact, and can't be taken away. Neither that, nor the all-star finishes, though, proves anything about where someone would end up on an "overall ranking".

Refer to Selanne as a top 5 scorer in those years all you want, but don't pretend there are no holes in your all-star (and now attempted points finish) defense(s) if you want to stretch that further into the "overall".
I agree that All-Star selections and scoring finishes are not everything. But they definitely need to be looked at when judging players seasons.

I'd say that Selanne was arguably a top-5 forward in 5 different years. It is the whole body of work that he had to show for the years between 95-00 seasons.

For that timeframe he had 4th best PPG and only one player had more games played than him in the top-10- It was John LeClair in the 9th spot. For that timeframe he was 5th in GPG with most games played again after LeClair. Who was 8th in that comparison.

He also had 3 post season AS selections with 1st 2nd and 2nd team.
In that timeframe he was 1st, 1st and 2nd in goalscoring seasons.
He also was 2nd, 2nd, 5th, 7th and 8th in points. He was also top-10 in PPG for every season that time. 95/96=8th in PPG 96/97=5th in PPG 97/98=3rd in PPG 98/99=2nd in PPG 99/00=8th in PPG

I'd say that he has very good case for being top-5 forward in the league for every season and for that 5 season stretch as a whole.

Not a slam dunk sure thing but Selanne has very strong arguments going on for him in every season looked at and considering the whole body of work he probably is about top-5 forward in most those years.

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02-13-2013, 06:05 AM
  #133
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Either way Selanne's career will be one of the most remembered careers, and definetly the most amazing one in modern era of hockey. and it aint over yet, so who knows

Is there a list about selanne's records?

It might be one of the longest in history. Teemu was among the best in 1992 and he is still in 2013. These stat comparisons are so flawed, when most of the players have scored in much lesser competition and hockey was much more minor sport some time ago...and so different that its pointless even to compair...

Also time always goldens things. People are arguing with players that they've never seen play and only look at stats and maybe a highlight video. People also only remember the good things about the player X, but teemu is still playing and you can see the bad things about him, if there are any... So all this talk is so flawed that nobody should bother.

And there is always a nationality and hockey market factor and therefore teemu will never get the recognition he deserves and it's a shame.

Teemu is s legend and will always be rememberd, there is always jelousy


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02-13-2013, 06:19 AM
  #134
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Nope. Top 30 or so.

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02-13-2013, 08:40 AM
  #135
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He might, just might be a Top 10 European forward of all-time. (Not bad at all though).

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02-13-2013, 09:24 AM
  #136
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
I agree that All-Star selections and scoring finishes are not everything. But they definitely need to be looked at when judging players seasons.

I'd say that Selanne was arguably a top-5 forward in 5 different years. It is the whole body of work that he had to show for the years between 95-00 seasons.
Quote:
95/96=8th in PPG 96/97=5th in PPG 97/98=3rd in PPG 98/99=2nd in PPG 99/00=8th in PPG

I'd say that he has very good case for being top-5 forward in the league for every season and for that 5 season stretch as a whole.

Not a slam dunk sure thing but Selanne has very strong arguments going on for him in every season looked at and considering the whole body of work he probably is about top-5 forward in most those years.
I've already addressed 96-97 and 99-00. So let's look at 1995-96.

We have Selanne tied for seventh in scoring with Kariya with 108 points. Ahead of him we have Mario Lemieux, Jaromir Jagr, Joe Sakic, Ron Francis (2nd in Selke voting), Peter Forsberg, and Eric Lindros. And in ninth, we have a tied between Selke winner Sergei Fedorov and Alexander Mogilny. Also notable are 13th-place Mark Messier's 99 points (2nd in Hart voting, 2nd team All-star...?) and 19th-place Steve Yzerman's 95 points (3rd in Selke voting).

Mogilny is the only forward there I would consider putting Selanne ahead of for 1995-96; it was a VERY center-heavy year. And Selanne finished behind Mogilny in All-Star voting.

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02-13-2013, 12:06 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
I agree that All-Star selections and scoring finishes are not everything. But they definitely need to be looked at when judging players seasons.
Oh, I won't disagree with that at all. And while you did at least "flesh out" the argument beyond that (sorry for deleting it all), there's just so much more to look at than just those and PPG when you have such a top-heavy era of centres.

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02-13-2013, 12:12 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
1) Lemieux.

2) Jagr and Kariya both scored in the high 90s playing under 70 games.

3) Lindros scored 79 in only 52 games.

4) Forsberg scored 86 in 65 AND was second place in Selke voting.

Forsberg is the only player I have listed who was behind Selanne in PPG, and he wasn't behind by much. A Selke nomination is certainly worth at least 0.08 points per game - or 6.5 points in a full season - wouldn't you say?

As for 1999-00, it's true that RW did have a solid year. But you're leaving out an important fact: Selanne finished seventh in All-Star voting. I personally rank him fourth among RW for that year, but again center strength pushes him out.
This post is using two different methods that push Selanne out from top-5 forwards. PPG and reputation as a top-forward.

Selanne finished second in points and goals. Ahead only Lemieux in points and lost by one goal to Keith Tkachuk who played three more games.

Now, if Kariya and Jagr were ahead of Selanne due to the higher PPG (Kariya had 1.43 and Selanne had 1.40 but 10 more points ). By that analogy Selanne is a top-5 forward in those 5 seasons i listed since his PPG is 4th highest with most games played in top-9 and his GPG is 5th highest with most games played by top-8. Which is it?

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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
I've already addressed 96-97 and 99-00. So let's look at 1995-96.

We have Selanne tied for seventh in scoring with Kariya with 108 points. Ahead of him we have Mario Lemieux, Jaromir Jagr, Joe Sakic, Ron Francis (2nd in Selke voting), Peter Forsberg, and Eric Lindros. And in ninth, we have a tied between Selke winner Sergei Fedorov and Alexander Mogilny. Also notable are 13th-place Mark Messier's 99 points (2nd in Hart voting, 2nd team All-star...?) and 19th-place Steve Yzerman's 95 points (3rd in Selke voting).

Mogilny is the only forward there I would consider putting Selanne ahead of for 1995-96; it was a VERY center-heavy year. And Selanne finished behind Mogilny in All-Star voting.

Good points, i would personally give Selanne two solid places in top-5 in those 5 years. In 96/97 and 98/99 seasons. He finished 2nd in points in both years was 1st and 2nd in goals and was 1st and 2nd team all-star. He was also 5th and 2nd in PPG. So, using the normal metrics he should be a very strong candidate for top-5 in both years. I would actually say that he has a good case for 2nd best in one year.

He is probably somewhere around 5th in 97/98. He led the league in goals and had best GPG excluding Kariya who played 22 games. He was also 3rd in PPG excluding Kariya again.

Now, for the year you took upon. 95/96. He probably was around 10th in terms of forwards. Not going to argue there.

99/00 he was also probably closer to 10th than he was 5th. But somewhere around there.

For three years from 96-99 he was first in GPG first in goals scored and second in PPG second in points. Now tell me how is that not a top-5 forward in three years.

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02-13-2013, 12:33 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Oh, I won't disagree with that at all. And while you did at least "flesh out" the argument beyond that (sorry for deleting it all), there's just so much more to look at than just those and PPG when you have such a top-heavy era of centres.
True. I think memory is one of the strongest things here. Selanne had his peak years so little time a go that there are a lot of people who remember him playing and how he was regarded at that time. I don't remember him being the top-dog never. But he was definitely on the next tier after Jagr/Lemieux.

Where to put him is debatable but it is not outrageous to make a claim that he was top-5 forward for 3 years. 5 is stretching it, i took it too far admit. But for 96-99 he was definitely on the top tier of forwards.

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02-13-2013, 12:36 PM
  #140
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Love Selanne. But if you really think he's a top-10 forward all time, then you probably haven't been watching hockey very long and are completely oblivious to players that played before you became a fan. I would struggle putting him in my top-20

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02-13-2013, 12:37 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
This post is using two different methods that push Selanne out from top-5 forwards. PPG and reputation as a top-forward.
The question was "top 5 forwards" not "top 5 seasons by forwards", which is notably different.

Selanne was named to the first-team ahead of Jagr in 1997 because of how many games Jagr missed. Kariya was Selanne's linemate and outpaced him, and was generally considered the better player. Which I think is accurate; 94-95 through 99-00 inclusive, Kariya was the better player. Selanne had some very good years outside of that stretch though, so he's better all-time. But I think it's Selanne peak, Kariya prime, Selanne career. Without injury, I think Kariya takes career as well.

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Good points, i would personally give Selanne two solid places in top-5 in those 5 years. In 96/97 and 98/99 seasons. He finished 2nd in points in both years was 1st and 2nd in goals and was 1st and 2nd team all-star. He was also 5th and 2nd in PPG. So, using the normal metrics he should be a very strong candidate for top-5 in both years. I would actually say that he has a good case for 2nd best in one year.
In 96-97 I have Selanne ranked 8th, and I already spoke of why he's not top five. I think I already mentioned I placed him in the top five in 97-98 and 98-99.

Quote:
He is probably somewhere around 5th in 97/98. He led the league in goals and had best GPG excluding Kariya who played 22 games. He was also 3rd in PPG excluding Kariya again.
Fifth is where I have him ranked.

Quote:
Now, for the year you took upon. 95/96. He probably was around 10th in terms of forwards. Not going to argue there.
I place him 11/12, depending on whether you put him ahead of or behind Mogilny. I'm leaning towards 12th, but it's pretty close.

Quote:
99/00 he was also probably closer to 10th than he was 5th. But somewhere around there.
I put him 8th.

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For three years from 96-99 he was first in GPG first in goals scored and second in PPG second in points. Now tell me how is that not a top-5 forward in three years.
I'd rank him fifth for the overall period of 96-97 through 98-99, if that's what you're including. 8th, 4th, and 5th for individual seasons in that order. Drops back down to 8th in 99-00.

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02-13-2013, 12:43 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
The question was "top 5 forwards" not "top 5 seasons by forwards", which is notably different.
.
Pretty much agreed with this. Altough i think Kariya, as close they were with Selanne was never better than Selanne. It is the media hype and view he got, that made people think he was better.

For 2-3 years he was top-5 and for few more years he was top-10.

Sorry for deleting a lot of your post but it was right above mine and my respond was so short.

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02-13-2013, 12:57 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
For 2-3 years he was top-5 and for few more years he was top-10.
Kariya? Or Selanne?

If you mean Kariya with this, no no no no.

Despite what I stated with the "Kariya>Selanne" part, I would only place one of Kariya's seasons in the top five. Seems like all of his best years ended up in seasons with strong top-end performances at the other two forward positions; I have him ranked 10th, 6th, 5th, 6th, and 9th (in order) in the span from 1995-96 through 1999-00.

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02-13-2013, 01:13 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Kariya? Or Selanne?

If you mean Kariya with this, no no no no.

Despite what I stated with the "Kariya>Selanne" part, I would only place one of Kariya's seasons in the top five. Seems like all of his best years ended up in seasons with strong top-end performances at the other two forward positions; I have him ranked 10th, 6th, 5th, 6th, and 9th (in order) in the span from 1995-96 through 1999-00.
No, i meant Selanne. I just worded it badly.

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02-13-2013, 02:28 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
1) Lemieux.

2) Jagr and Kariya both scored in the high 90s playing under 70 games.

3) Lindros scored 79 in only 52 games.

4) Forsberg scored 86 in 65 AND was second place in Selke voting.

Forsberg is the only player I have listed who was behind Selanne in PPG, and he wasn't behind by much. A Selke nomination is certainly worth at least 0.08 points per game - or 6.5 points in a full season - wouldn't you say?
The only forward I would consider putting ahead of Selanne for 2nd place is Jagr. Does Forsberg's defensive play make up for the 17 games he didnt play? I dont think so. Lindros missed too many games to be put over Selanne. 79 in 52 is ridiculous but thats still 30 games missed.

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02-13-2013, 03:24 PM
  #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus3007 View Post
Selanne's career > Forsberg's career
Yes, because Selänne has so much more hardware or even a triple gold club, or perhaps even two of them - as Forsberg got?

Forsberg had a shorter career and accomplished more, because he was more talented.

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02-13-2013, 04:13 PM
  #147
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Yes, because Selänne has so much more hardware or even a triple gold club, or perhaps even two of them - as Forsberg got?

Forsberg had a shorter career and accomplished more, because he was more talented.
No comment on talent levels but team accomplishments are team accomplishments - not individual accomplishments. The only exception possibly being Hasek in Nagano.

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02-13-2013, 05:15 PM
  #148
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No comment on talent levels but team accomplishments are team accomplishments - not individual accomplishments. The only exception possibly being Hasek in Nagano.
The Hart and Art Ross trophies, though, are often indication enough of "another level". Guys from Bondra to Cheechoo to Hejduk have Richard trophies (or the "retro-version", for seasons before '98/99), but you look at the names on the Hart and Art Ross trophies and it's no comparison really.

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02-13-2013, 07:08 PM
  #149
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nah. but hes still a top 25 forward

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02-13-2013, 08:21 PM
  #150
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The only forward I would consider putting ahead of Selanne for 2nd place is Jagr. Does Forsberg's defensive play make up for the 17 games he didnt play? I dont think so. Lindros missed too many games to be put over Selanne. 79 in 52 is ridiculous but thats still 30 games missed.
The question is whether Selanne was a top-five forward, not whether his season was one of the five best.

There's a difference, and I believe you highlighted it.

It's like the people who maintained through Crosby's injury struggles the past few years that he is the best player. You can't have the best season if you play 20 or 40 games or maybe even 60 games, unless you're an otherwordly talent (which Crosby is not). But you can still be the best player.

The players I listed were clearly better than Selanne in 96-97. Let's look at what kind of scoring pace they would have to maintain to match Selanne's points and GP:

Kariya (99 in 69) would need 10 in 9.
Jagr (95 in 63) would need 14 in 15.
Lindros (79 in 52) would need 30 in 26.
Forsberg (86 in 65) would need 23 in 13.

Here's what their actual paces put them for in their specified GP:
Kariya 9GP, 14 points.
Jagr 15 GP, 23 points.
Lindros 27 GP, 40 points.
Forsberg 14 GP, 17 points.

So if those four all played 78 games as Selanne did continuing their paces, here's what the top ten (well, top eleven) scoring leaders look like:

Lemieux 122
Lindros 119
Jagr 118
Kariya 113
Selanne 109
Forsberg 103
Leclair 97
Gretzky 97
Sundin 94
Palffy 90
Francis 90

At that point, Selanne is fifth in scoring. He's well behind Lemieux, Lindros, and Jagr so there's not a discussion there. He's also behind his teammate Kariya, so he probably loses that battle this season as the two were often viewed as equals and during Kariya's peak Kariya was considered the better player.

Which leaves it to be a "Forsberg vs. Selanne" argument for the last spot, and Forsberg was second in Selke voting (despite injury - maybe he wins if healthy?) while being very close to Selanne's offensive production.

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