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Would you consider moving Cole if the price is right?

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Old
02-13-2013, 12:29 PM
  #251
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I'd trade anyone for the right price. That is how you improve a team.

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02-13-2013, 12:35 PM
  #252
Burke the Legend
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
in a bubble... sure. getting a 2nd round pick for a smallish player who was a 5th rd draft pick, with minimal NHL resume seems pretty good.
You're the one in a bubble, Grabovski still isn't worth much more than a 2nd, maybe 2nd + 3rd. He's a mediocre 2nd line centre who can put up 50 points getting a lot of icetime on a bad team and brings zero intangibles.

On a good team he's a plug, and he couldn't even crack 3rd line centre on the Habs who were in 1st that year, and wouldn't the next season either when we had Koivu, Plekanecs and Lang starting down the middle.

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02-13-2013, 12:58 PM
  #253
Miller Time
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Wait a second return for Grabovski? a colossal screw-up, one that rightfully contributed to all those involved getting a one-way ticket out of town? If my memory serves me correct Grabovski stay in Montreal towards the end was anything good to right about did he leave the team on his own during the California swing? Was making life difficult for the captain, coach and team? You think he was worth staying? wow Grabovski was packed and ready to go it wasn't a colossal screw-up he has issues and eventually it will show again.
ah yes, the "he had issues" defense... how original

there's a reason that every one of Grabovski, Lapierre, S.Kost, Latendresse, Ribiero, went on to have much better seasons IMMEDIATELY after leaving montreal, and that, latendresse aside, none have had any of these so-called "issues" in their new found homes.

combined, we have exactly ZERO to show for those 5 players... all 5 of them are still playing prominent/top-9 roles for their teams and only 1 of them is over 30.

Absolutely terrible asset management... hard to believe anyone still tries to rationalize it any other way... not sure if it's memory that's problematic, or just the lingering effects of an overdose on the gainey/gauthier kool-aid.

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02-13-2013, 01:03 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by Burke the Legend View Post
You're the one in a bubble, Grabovski still isn't worth much more than a 2nd, maybe 2nd + 3rd. He's a mediocre 2nd line centre who can put up 50 points getting a lot of icetime on a bad team and brings zero intangibles.

On a good team he's a plug, and he couldn't even crack 3rd line centre on the Habs who were in 1st that year, and wouldn't the next season either when we had Koivu, Plekanecs and Lang starting down the middle.
right, because the alternative we ended up with, Mr. "No goals in a calendar year despite top-wingers/pp time/offensive opportunities" was a much better alternative?

keeping Grabovski instead of waisting a 2nd to get Lang should have been a no-brainer and would have been for a management team with a viable plan to build a winner. Instead we gave up a promising, cheap, top-6 C for a pick we then used on an expensive, old, top-9 C, before making a complete team overhaul 8 months later.


i mean come on, we endure Scott freaking Gomez, who was so bad our team was willing to pay him to stay home!


and you're trying to argue that Grabovski "isn't worth much"... get a clue!

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02-13-2013, 01:14 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
ah yes, the "he had issues" defense... how original

there's a reason that every one of Grabovski, Lapierre, S.Kost, Latendresse, Ribiero, went on to have much better seasons IMMEDIATELY after leaving montreal, and that, latendresse aside, none have had any of these so-called "issues" in their new found homes.

combined, we have exactly ZERO to show for those 5 players... all 5 of them are still playing prominent/top-9 roles for their teams and only 1 of them is over 30.

Absolutely terrible asset management... hard to believe anyone still tries to rationalize it any other way... not sure if it's memory that's problematic, or just the lingering effects of an overdose on the gainey/gauthier kool-aid.
Lapierre had his best season by far with MTL and certainly displays some of the same 'issues' with Vancouver. Ribeiro has also continued to have the same issues but since he's producing it becomes easier to overlook.

Grabovski got us a 2nd which is good value for the player he was.
Latendresse we got decent value for even if in hindsight it didn't work out.

Trading Ribeiro was the right move because we wanted to give a bigger role to Plekanec which was the right decision. The return we got was awful though.

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Old
02-13-2013, 02:22 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
right, because the alternative we ended up with, Mr. "No goals in a calendar year despite top-wingers/pp time/offensive opportunities" was a much better alternative?

keeping Grabovski instead of waisting a 2nd to get Lang should have been a no-brainer and would have been for a management team with a viable plan to build a winner. Instead we gave up a promising, cheap, top-6 C for a pick we then used on an expensive, old, top-9 C, before making a complete team overhaul 8 months later.


i mean come on, we endure Scott freaking Gomez, who was so bad our team was willing to pay him to stay home!


and you're trying to argue that Grabovski "isn't worth much"... get a clue!
Wow you have some genius 20/20 hindsight analsysis. You sit here and cry about things that went wrong years later but you still ignore the main point that Grabovski is not worth very much. Your main endorsement of him seems to be "cheap".

All he's done is put up 50 points given a lot of icetime on a freewheeling offensive team. The Leafs would not get a 1st for him if they tried to trade him now so how is the Habs getting a 2nd for him 4 years ago a terrible trade?

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Old
02-13-2013, 07:23 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Mover View Post
We finally got a 30 goals scorer: NO.
yes we had a former 30 goal scorer who had a career year and we finished with the third pick in the draft

you get a decent return move him and others who have no long term future with us

he was signed for 2 years too many

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Old
02-13-2013, 08:06 PM
  #258
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I don't think people realize this thread is a year old and are responding to posts people made last season. It was bumped to make an "in retrospect" point and people are continuing the conversation. I like it.

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02-13-2013, 08:24 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Lapierre had his best season by far with MTL and certainly displays some of the same 'issues' with Vancouver. Ribeiro has also continued to have the same issues but since he's producing it becomes easier to overlook.

Grabovski got us a 2nd which is good value for the player he was.
Latendresse we got decent value for even if in hindsight it didn't work out.

Trading Ribeiro was the right move because we wanted to give a bigger role to Plekanec which was the right decision. The return we got was awful though.
Ribeiro had off ice and issues in the room as well which was a well known fact among NHL front offices. Gainey tried to get a lot more but nobody was biting, so he gambled that Niniimaa would bounce back and he didn't. It's not like he was a nobody.

People quickly forget that he had 319 NHL points in 741 games including 41, 43 and 44 point seasons in Edmonton, plus he was only 31 at the time. Not sure why his career disintergrated in 2 years.

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Old
02-13-2013, 08:41 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Lapierre had his best season by far with MTL and certainly displays some of the same 'issues' with Vancouver. Ribeiro has also continued to have the same issues but since he's producing it becomes easier to overlook.

Grabovski got us a 2nd which is good value for the player he was.
Latendresse we got decent value for even if in hindsight it didn't work out.

Trading Ribeiro was the right move because we wanted to give a bigger role to Plekanec which was the right decision. The return we got was awful though.
lapierre's minutes in VCR have gone up each year. You're right, his best overall season was in montreal, a year where the entire team overachieved, then he found himself (like most young players in our organization around that time) handled very poorly until the point where his value was it's lowest, and then shipped out for even less than that (Ducks traded him, a few weeks later -with no sign of improved play, for a better return).

Ribeiro's "issues" clearly weren't as bad in Dallas (i didn't like him in our jersey, and know quite a few of the behind the scenes stories that contributed to his departure, but none of that justifies how poorly we managed him as an asset)... otherwise why would he have lasted 6 years there (3 of them playing for Tippett, a guy known for being demanding), and signed to a long-term large raise contract shortly after getting there.


Go look at the 2nd round picks from the last decade... very few of them have become players of Grabovski's caliber or better. He was 23-24, absolutely dominating the AHL, and looking very much like a top-6 caliber player in the near future. A 2nd round pick for a young player with that kind of upside is not a "good value". Especially not for a team with very thin depth at C both in the NHL and in their prospect pool at the time.

Lats for Pouliot was probably the "best" of those deals... and we ended up with Pouliot... nuff said.

main point, in any case, remains that we squandered several young assets who went on to better things (except Lapierre) with their new teams, while we were left with nothing to show for it.

and that's how you go from winning the conference to last in the conference in a few years despite having the best scouting department and being a cap spending team.

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Old
02-13-2013, 08:51 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by Burke the Legend View Post
Wow you have some genius 20/20 hindsight analsysis. You sit here and cry about things that went wrong years later but you still ignore the main point that Grabovski is not worth very much. Your main endorsement of him seems to be "cheap".

All he's done is put up 50 points given a lot of icetime on a freewheeling offensive team. The Leafs would not get a 1st for him if they tried to trade him now so how is the Habs getting a 2nd for him 4 years ago a terrible trade?
most of, if not all of, those moves were poor at the time, and hindsight just cemented them as idiotic.

grabovski was a better option than what we ended up with, and the fact that he was much cheaper is OBVIOUSLY of value in a cap system. Not sure why that is hard to understand.

it was a bad trade at the time because
- we were thin at C (especially top-6/offensive C's)
- we were bare in prospect top-6 C's
- our management team completely undervalued our own NHL talent, while simultaneously overvaluing the NHL talent available elsewhere... leading to the summer of 09 debacle and the beginning of the "Luxury Smurf" era.

hindsight, where Grabovski quickly establishes himself as a legit top-6 C (to the point of earning a 3M$ RFA deal, followed by a long term 5.5M$ UFA deal)
I might not value him at 5.5M$, but to call him "not worth very much" just bc he plays for the leafs is a little silly.

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Old
02-14-2013, 08:08 AM
  #262
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Ribeiro had off ice and issues in the room as well which was a well known fact among NHL front offices. Gainey tried to get a lot more but nobody was biting, so he gambled that Niniimaa would bounce back and he didn't. It's not like he was a nobody.

People quickly forget that he had 319 NHL points in 741 games including 41, 43 and 44 point seasons in Edmonton, plus he was only 31 at the time. Not sure why his career disintergrated in 2 years.
No he didn't he had 46 and 44 point seasons then quickly came back down to earth. And by the way those seasons were in 2000-01, 2001-02, we traded for the guy in 2006-07 and he was going nothing but downhill. But again typical you defending the organization all the time even when they make mistakes

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02-14-2013, 08:17 AM
  #263
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Grabovsky wasn't traded for a 2nd rounder.

We also got Greg Pateryn, a decent defensive prospect, and...

The negotiating rights to Mats Sundin.

It was a decent risk by Bob Gainey. He thought Mats Sundin would make us a favorite, and that was an intelligent thought.

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02-14-2013, 08:20 AM
  #264
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Grabovsky wasn't traded for a 2nd rounder.

We also got Greg Pateryn, a decent defensive prospect, and...

The negotiating rights to Mats Sundin.

It was a decent risk by Bob Gainey. He thought Mats Sundin would make us a favorite, and that was an intelligent thought.
The 2nd rounder was flipped to get Robert Lang.

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02-14-2013, 08:21 AM
  #265
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Grabovsky wasn't traded for a 2nd rounder.

We also got Greg Pateryn, a decent defensive prospect, and...

The negotiating rights to Mats Sundin.

It was a decent risk by Bob Gainey. He thought Mats Sundin would make us a favorite, and that was an intelligent thought.
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
The 2nd rounder was flipped to get Robert Lang.
That is correct

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02-14-2013, 09:06 AM
  #266
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No he didn't he had 46 and 44 point seasons then quickly came back down to earth. And by the way those seasons were in 2000-01, 2001-02, we traded for the guy in 2006-07 and he was going nothing but downhill. But again typical you defending the organization all the time even when they make mistakes
If you're going to post about a trade at least look at both sides.

He had 43 points in 97-98
...then 28, 33, 46 and 44.
In 02-03 he had 34 points.
03-04 he had 28
04-05 was the lock out
05-06 he had 16 in 63 between two team and had a serious injury(I believe it was a shoulder...)

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02-14-2013, 09:27 AM
  #267
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Originally Posted by SeriousHabs View Post
I'd trade anyone for the right price. That is how you improve a team.
Except on some the right price might be so high that it makes a move harder.

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Old
02-14-2013, 09:34 AM
  #268
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Grabovsky wasn't traded for a 2nd rounder.

We also got Greg Pateryn, a decent defensive prospect, and...

The negotiating rights to Mats Sundin.

It was a decent risk by Bob Gainey. He thought Mats Sundin would make us a favorite, and that was an intelligent thought.
This had nothing to do with the Grabovski deal.

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02-14-2013, 10:39 AM
  #269
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
ah yes, the "he had issues" defense... how original

there's a reason that every one of Grabovski, Lapierre, S.Kost, Latendresse, Ribiero, went on to have much better seasons IMMEDIATELY after leaving montreal, and that, latendresse aside, none have had any of these so-called "issues" in their new found homes.
I agree that the trades were horrible but the bolded statement is false and Ribs is a prime example.

Having said that, I would trade Cole but only if it was designed to improve the team rather than dump salary.

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02-14-2013, 10:45 AM
  #270
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Really weird question.

I'd trade anyone if the "price was right" including Carey Price, Andrei Markov, Max Pacioretty, or PK Subban.

If you mean, would I trade him for his value? Probably not because his value is going to be down right now.

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02-14-2013, 10:48 AM
  #271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Grabovsky wasn't traded for a 2nd rounder.

We also got Greg Pateryn, a decent defensive prospect, and...

The negotiating rights to Mats Sundin.

It was a decent risk by Bob Gainey. He thought Mats Sundin would make us a favorite, and that was an intelligent thought.
Yes he was. The trade for Grabovski was a 2nd (flipped for Robert Lang, Boston drafted Jared Knight with the pick) and Greg Pateryn.

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Old
02-14-2013, 10:59 AM
  #272
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Originally Posted by HawkeyeCB View Post
Really weird question.

I'd trade anyone if the "price was right" including Carey Price, Andrei Markov, Max Pacioretty, or PK Subban.

If you mean, would I trade him for his value? Probably not because his value is going to be down right now.
These threads always pop up for players that are down in performance. In a couple weeks, when Pacioretty, Cole, and Gionta are on a roll the Bourque, Plekanec "if the price is right" threads will get up and running.

My only criteria for a trade , and this is where Gauthier was unbelievably short sighted, is that the trade obtain the best player in the deal and that it make sense beyond a couple of years.

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02-14-2013, 01:15 PM
  #273
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Originally Posted by HawkeyeCB View Post
Really weird question.

I'd trade anyone if the "price was right" including Carey Price, Andrei Markov, Max Pacioretty, or PK Subban.

If you mean, would I trade him for his value? Probably not because his value is going to be down right now.
The problem is that, for some player even if you get "their value" then you have to turn around and replace that player.

Plus, value is always relative...if you are a "seller" then the value you want for player X who is older is probably less than another team with the same player but is contending.

There are also situations where you have a young team and that player is a key leader(Gionta) and trading him would put more pressure and negatively affect younger players' development.

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02-14-2013, 01:18 PM
  #274
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
ah yes, the "he had issues" defense... how original

there's a reason that every one of Grabovski, Lapierre, S.Kost, Latendresse, Ribiero, went on to have much better seasons IMMEDIATELY after leaving montreal, and that, latendresse aside, none have had any of these so-called "issues" in their new found homes.

combined, we have exactly ZERO to show for those 5 players... all 5 of them are still playing prominent/top-9 roles for their teams and only 1 of them is over 30.

Absolutely terrible asset management... hard to believe anyone still tries to rationalize it any other way... not sure if it's memory that's problematic, or just the lingering effects of an overdose on the gainey/gauthier kool-aid.
Ribeiro had issues... That guy was an embarrassment as far as I'm concerned and he's the one guy I didn't mind getting ripped off for. I was just glad we got rid of him.

Your main point is well taken though. Carry on...

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02-14-2013, 01:52 PM
  #275
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If a team is fool enough to give a 1st for Cole you jump on the deal and never look back. Might as well give cole's ice time to Eller at least the kid is showing intensity.

I'd have no problem playing Gallagher and Galchenyuk 15 minutes per game.

The draft this year is deep maybe we could get a gritty player like Erne or a player like Zykov with this pick.

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