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Do the Habs need a heavyweight enforcer?

View Poll Results: Should the Habs claim Matt Kassian on waivers from Minnesota?
Yes 86 74.78%
No 29 25.22%
Voters: 115. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-13-2013, 12:33 PM
  #226
Blind Gardien
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The only reason we talk about Nokelainen is for the IF/WHEN he comes back. We're already at 23 before Nokelainen. And we already can't figure out who goes to make room for Kassian. But if we do add Kassian, then if/when Nokelainen does come back, it just increases the likelihood that we'd have to waive him on return. Basically like Palushaj. Not really a big deal, but then, I don't think we have much of a clue about Nokelainen's injury status. Maybe he's done for the year?

Anyway, for today, nobody in the default 23 is injured and nobody is going to get injured presumably before noon tomorrow. We can put in a claim on Kassian anyway, even with 23 guys, just we have to make a move tomorrow *IF* our claim is successful. Could just put Gallagher on a plane for Hamilton, while awaiting an injury/move, that's probably easiest, in the event our claim was successful.

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02-13-2013, 12:34 PM
  #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GFORCE View Post
Matt Kassian would actually fill a need on this team. Look at the North East division. Look at the kind of hockey that's being played in the league right now, with a 20% increase of fights.
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Originally Posted by Habsfannick View Post
That's where you're wrong he fills a role that for the wild that is already filled, however a role that is wide open in montreal that's stuck in a bruiser division he would hold great value for montreal as a 4liner or even a depth guy, can bang with the best of them big tough physical guy with something to prove now
I'm not saying Kassian doesn't fill a need; I think he does. I'm saying I don't think the timing is right. If you're agreeing with me that we can't move Nokelainen, then your only suggestion is that we waive Weber to make a spot, and I don't agree with that - I think it's poor asset management. I'm not a huge fan of Weber but I do think he can be moved at some point, even if it's for only a late pick. All the same, I'm not in favor of kicking him out the door to make room for a guy who, though he might help, will probably not have a significant impact on our lineup.

In short: I do think we should add a heavyweight at some point; I don't think we should risk wasting an asset to do it. I think we can wait a little longer and do it when the timing is better (e.g. we have an injury and an open roster spot).

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02-13-2013, 12:34 PM
  #228
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If we weren't playing in the North-east division we wouldn't be having this discussion, but the Habs do play in the north-east, there's no escaping that. Based on what the Wild board has to say about Kassian, he sounds like he could be a serviceable 4th liner and a good team player, plus he can fight like the dickens

I'd like to see him on the roster as much as anyone, but I'm not sure how reasonable a possibility it is. We could waive White, but I'd like to see him stick around despite his tendencies to take awful penalties so far this year. Until Nokelainen is healthy I don't believe he can be put on waivers. Aside from White and Nokelainen, the only option I see is to send Gallagher down until Nokelainen is healthy, but that's not fair to Gallagher (who's played excellently so far this year)

Tough spot, it'll be interesting to see what management does

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02-13-2013, 12:35 PM
  #229
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Kassian is the code-type enforcer... As much as he's good at fighting hes not a thug...

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02-13-2013, 12:35 PM
  #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
The only reason we talk about Nokelainen is for the IF/WHEN he comes back. We're already at 23 before Nokelainen. And we already can't figure out who goes to make room for Kassian. But if we do add Kassian, then if/when Nokelainen does come back, it just increases the likelihood that we'd have to waive him on return. Basically like Palushaj. Not really a big deal, but then, I don't think we have much of a clue about Nokelainen's injury status. Maybe he's done for the year?

Anyway, for today, nobody in the default 23 is injured and nobody is going to get injured presumably before noon tomorrow. We can put in a claim on Kassian anyway, even with 23 guys, just we have to make a move tomorrow *IF* our claim is successful. Could just put Gallagher on a plane for Hamilton, while awaiting an injury/move, that's probably easiest, in the event our claim was successful.

Yeah I think that's the only option. Don't think that is likely to happen though.

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02-13-2013, 12:37 PM
  #231
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Kassian is big, tough, young and cheap = Not the Habs type of player.

Seriously we should get this guy if we want to compete in the NE Division. We need a 4th line that can physically punish the opposition.

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02-13-2013, 12:38 PM
  #232
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Yeah I think that's the only option. Don't think that is likely to happen though.
When was the last time Weber played? He is wasting away and his low value is only getting lower.

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02-13-2013, 12:42 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
I'm not saying Kassian doesn't fill a need; I think he does. I'm saying I don't think the timing is right. If you're agreeing with me that we can't move Nokelainen, then your only suggestion is that we waive Weber to make a spot, and I don't agree with that - I think it's poor asset management. I'm not a huge fan of Weber but I do think he can be moved at some point, even if it's for only a late pick. All the same, I'm not in favor of kicking him out the door to make room for a guy who, though he might help, will probably not have a significant impact on our lineup.

In short: I do think we should add a heavyweight at some point; I don't think we should risk wasting an asset to do it. I think we can wait a little longer and do it when the timing is better (e.g. we have an injury and an open roster spot).
You create the timing.

Weber's value will never get any higher, he just doesn't play. We'll end up losing him for close to nothing, that's something we have to accept. Pretty sure a team or two would already give up a late pick for him right now.

People here talk as if guys like Nokalainen and Weber were "assets". You know what? You can replace those "assets" later on, with very similar players, at least 10-15 times in a season, just keeping a look on the waivers list. I don't think losing Nokalainen or Weber will come back and bite us in the ass later on.

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02-13-2013, 12:44 PM
  #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary320 View Post
Yeah I think that's the only option. Don't think that is likely to happen though.
I don't think so either. Obviously they'd let Gallagher know the reason why and that he'd be back very soon, so it wouldn't be some big mysterious crushing blow to the kid. But still, it would seem like a lot of disruption to their overall team plan, and be perceived as a knee-jerk reaction to the Toronto thrashing... I can't see them being that reactionary, or wanting to seem to be that reactionary. Maybe if there was genuinely a roster opening and it really affected nothing to claim Kassian, but not when it forces their hand in other ways.

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02-13-2013, 12:49 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by GFORCE View Post
You create the timing.

Weber's value will never get any higher, he just doesn't play. We'll end up losing him for close to nothing, that's something we have to accept. Pretty sure a team or two would already give up a late pick for him right now.

People here talk as if guys like Nokalainen and Weber were "assets". You know what? You can replace those "assets" later on, with very similar players, at least 10-15 times in a season, just keeping a look on the waivers list. I don't think losing Nokalainen or Weber will come back and bite us in the ass later on.
Similarly, there are players of Kassian's ilk on waivers several times a year, many of whom who could be plucked from the AHL right now if we were so inclined. Kassian is good, but he's not head-and-shoulders above everyone else, or "THE GUY" that we need to pick up. We can fill that need without giving up anything, if we want to.

Ironically, what you're saying about Weber could just as easily be applied to Kassian. You're saying "it's not that Kassian isn't serviceable, it's that the Wild have too many similar guys ahead of him". Change it to Weber and the Habs and you have the exact same situation. So if Kassian has value by those rules, so does Weber.

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02-13-2013, 12:51 PM
  #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GFORCE View Post
Weber's value will never get any higher, he just doesn't play. We'll end up losing him for close to nothing, that's something we have to accept. Pretty sure a team or two would already give up a late pick for him right now.
I don't think Weber's "value" is purely defined by what other teams in the league might offer in a trade, however. Defensive depth has value to the Habs. We've been ridiculously healthy so far this season, but I think we all have lived through the nightmares of past seasons. Weber is here, he's familiar with the system, he's plug and play ready if anybody goes down. That's part of his value.

Another part of his value is for next season. We now *know* that Kaberle is gone. Bouillon may or may not be. But we've got one RFA we can qualify for a bit under $1M in Weber, an affordable depth option for next season too. There is not a clear indication that any kids in the minors are going to be ready to come up, and no guarantees that a suitable free agent could be signed. So again, Weber has some internal value.

Not huge value, of course. But still something aside from a 3rd-7th round pick or whatever his trade value to other teams is.

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02-13-2013, 12:59 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
Similarly, there are players of Kassian's ilk on waivers several times a year, many of whom who could be plucked from the AHL right now if we were so inclined. Kassian is good, but he's not head-and-shoulders above everyone else, or "THE GUY" that we need to pick up. We can fill that need without giving up anything, if we want to.

Ironically, what you're saying about Weber could just as easily be applied to Kassian. You're saying "it's not that Kassian isn't serviceable, it's that the Wild have too many similar guys ahead of him". Change it to Weber and the Habs and you have the exact same situation. So if Kassian has value by those rules, so does Weber.
Weber could really be serviceable to a team such as Detroit, who lost depth and has injuries on their blue line. That being said, the Habs, a team already counting on players such as Kaberle, Markov, Diaz, Subban... Weber has close to no value for us and offers absolutely no diversity.

Are there a lot of players like Kassian on the waivers in a year? No. Simply because there are not that many heavyweights available out there.

The fact that Weber can have some value on another team and might be appreciated elsewhere has no importance and doesn't change the fact that Weber, on this Montreal team, is just more of the same. And with the future on the blueline, it's obvious Weber is going to get dealt at some point. And looking back at his only "performance" this year (if you want to call it like that), and the fact he just doesn't play, there comes a time where you have to take a decision and do what's best for your team.

You can always say "Well we can wait..." The fact is, this season is only 48 games long, and the other 11 games against divisional opponents will likely determine whether or not we're making the playoffs. And with our current blend of players and our current approach, we're 2-5 against them.

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I don't think Weber's "value" is purely defined by what other teams in the league might offer in a trade, however. Defensive depth has value to the Habs. We've been ridiculously healthy so far this season, but I think we all have lived through the nightmares of past seasons. Weber is here, he's familiar with the system, he's plug and play ready if anybody goes down. That's part of his value.

Another part of his value is for next season. We now *know* that Kaberle is gone. Bouillon may or may not be. But we've got one RFA we can qualify for a bit under $1M in Weber, an affordable depth option for next season too. There is not a clear indication that any kids in the minors are going to be ready to come up, and no guarantees that a suitable free agent could be signed. So again, Weber has some internal value.

Not huge value, of course. But still something aside from a 3rd-7th round pick or whatever his trade value to other teams is.
Weber is nothing like defensive depth. He's redundant, and offers nothing more than what we have. You wanna add a guy that is big and can clear the crease? Absolutely. That's what I call depth, because the guy gives your team different elements. Weber? Sincerly, the way he's playing, I'm not even sure he'd break the top-4 in Hamilton right now.

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02-13-2013, 02:31 PM
  #238
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Originally Posted by GFORCE View Post
Weber could really be serviceable to a team such as Detroit, who lost depth and has injuries on their blue line. That being said, the Habs, a team already counting on players such as Kaberle, Markov, Diaz, Subban... Weber has close to no value for us and offers absolutely no diversity.

Are there a lot of players like Kassian on the waivers in a year? No. Simply because there are not that many heavyweights available out there.

The fact that Weber can have some value on another team and might be appreciated elsewhere has no importance and doesn't change the fact that Weber, on this Montreal team, is just more of the same. And with the future on the blueline, it's obvious Weber is going to get dealt at some point. And looking back at his only "performance" this year (if you want to call it like that), and the fact he just doesn't play, there comes a time where you have to take a decision and do what's best for your team.

You can always say "Well we can wait..." The fact is, this season is only 48 games long, and the other 11 games against divisional opponents will likely determine whether or not we're making the playoffs. And with our current blend of players and our current approach, we're 2-5 against them.



Weber is nothing like defensive depth. He's redundant, and offers nothing more than what we have. You wanna add a guy that is big and can clear the crease? Absolutely. That's what I call depth, because the guy gives your team different elements. Weber? Sincerly, the way he's playing, I'm not even sure he'd break the top-4 in Hamilton right now.
I am with you on this. Weber or Kaberle should be traded. Even if you only get a 5th rounder which Timmins seems to be good at getting talent you make the trade to free up a spot. Too many of the same type of D that are physically weak. Diaz is better than Weber and we don't need two of the same style of players on the ice. Going forward Markov should be our weakest Dman besides Diaz of course. We have young D prospects that all seem to have physical sides to them if needed. Tinordi, Beaulieu, Deitz, Thrower can all throw good body checks and defend themselves as well.

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02-13-2013, 02:40 PM
  #239
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I really hope we make room for Kassian. Last Saturday was sickening and we need someone to step up in those games. Only dresses when the other team has a heavyweight in the lineup.

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02-13-2013, 02:47 PM
  #240
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I am with you on this. Weber or Kaberle should be traded. Even if you only get a 5th rounder which Timmins seems to be good at getting talent you make the trade to free up a spot. Too many of the same type of D that are physically weak. Diaz is better than Weber and we don't need two of the same style of players on the ice. Going forward Markov should be our weakest Dman besides Diaz of course. We have young D prospects that all seem to have physical sides to them if needed. Tinordi, Beaulieu, Deitz, Thrower can all throw good body checks and defend themselves as well.
What is all that more concerning, is that there is a tendency when you'e looking at the last 2 Cup champs.

Boston:
Chara
Seidenberg
Boychuk
McQuaid
Ference
Kaberle


Los Angeles:
Doughty
Scuderi
Greene
Mitchell
Martinez
Voynov

There are a lot of similarities there. One dominant defenseman, with 3 others d-men in each team who play a tough and gritty game (Ference/McQuaid/Boychuk vs Scuderi/Greene/Mitchell) within their limits. Most of these 6 are imposing and big d-men, that while not the best to move the puck up, will clear the crease and play the body on their opponents. Both teams then had a defenseman that is also capable of moving the puck, playing sheltered minutes (Voynov - Kaberle).

And while nobody think of them as a relevant team this year, the Leafs look like they are taking a page out of these teams' book, playing guys like Holzer, Franson and Fraser. Of course, Phaneuf is no Doughty, neither is he in the same class as Chara. But their size and physicality back there make them very hard to play against.

Here, we have guys like Gorges, Kaberle, Diaz, Markov, Weber... We need a different mix. Now, Gorges and Markov are keepers IMO, as both can be useful in a championship team. But Diaz shouldn't play a much bigger role than a guy like Voynov or Kaberle in a Cup winning team. And Gorges can be one of our guys who play a specific role for us. But Kaberle and Diaz offer absolutely no ingredient that a winning team would need, as the trend is clearly about acquiring tough to play against d-men. This is the kind of depth we need. Not guys like Weber and Kaberle.

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02-13-2013, 02:51 PM
  #241
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Originally Posted by GFORCE View Post
What is all that more concerning, is that there is a tendency when you'e looking at the last 2 Cup champs.

Boston:
Chara
Seidenberg
Boychuk
McQuaid
Ference
Kaberle


Los Angeles:
Doughty
Scuderi
Greene
Mitchell
Martinez
Voynov

There are a lot of similarities there. One dominant defenseman, with 3 others d-men in each team who play a tough and gritty game (Ference/McQuaid/Boychuk vs Scuderi/Greene/Mitchell) within their limits. Most of these 6 are imposing and big d-men, that while not the best to move the puck up, will clear the crease and play the body on their opponents. Both teams then had a defenseman that is also capable of moving the puck, playing sheltered minutes (Voynov - Kaberle).

And while nobody think of them as a relevant team this year, the Leafs look like they are taking a page out of these teams' book, playing guys like Holzer, Franson and Fraser. Of course, Phaneuf is no Doughty, neither is he in the same class as Chara. But their size and physicality back there make them very hard to play against.

Here, we have guys like Gorges, Kaberle, Diaz, Markov, Weber... We need a different mix. Now, Gorges and Markov are keepers IMO, as both can be useful in a championship team. But Diaz shouldn't play a much bigger role than a guy like Voynov or Kaberle in a Cup winning team. And Gorges can be one of our guys who play a specific role for us. But Kaberle and Diaz offer absolutely no ingredient that a winning team would need, as the trend is clearly about acquiring tough to play against d-men. This is the kind of depth we need. Not guys like Weber and Kaberle.
These big d-men are hard to get in a trade. Not long time ago, we had Gill, Hamrlik, Mara, O'Byrne, Komisarek.......

I think we will have to wait until Tinordi, Dietz, Thrower, Beaulieu, Ellis or Pateryn are ready.

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02-13-2013, 03:05 PM
  #242
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These big d-men are hard to get in a trade. Not long time ago, we had Gill, Hamrlik, Mara, O'Byrne, Komisarek.......

I think we will have to wait until Tinordi, Dietz, Thrower, Beaulieu, Ellis or Pateryn are ready.
Komisarek is useless ever since Lucic sucked any virility away from him.

O'Byrne is not nearly as established as a player as the ones I listed above.
Mara hasn't played in the NHL ever since we let him go for the 2nd time.
Hamrlik was a good, big role d-man to have, but was a little old.
As for Gill, unlike guys like McQuaid, Boychuk, Ference, Mitchell, Greene and Scuderi, he had absolutely, absolutely NO foot speed.

These d-men have to be developed, but can also be acquired through trade. Boychuk was acquired by Boston before he broke out. McQuaid was developed. Ference was aquired. Greene was acquired by trade by LA. Scuderi and Mitchell were UFA signings.

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02-13-2013, 03:17 PM
  #243
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Komisarek is useless ever since Lucic sucked any virility away from him.

O'Byrne is not nearly as established as a player as the ones I listed above.
Mara hasn't played in the NHL ever since we let him go for the 2nd time.
Hamrlik was a good, big role d-man to have, but was a little old.
As for Gill, unlike guys like McQuaid, Boychuk, Ference, Mitchell, Greene and Scuderi, he had absolutely, absolutely NO foot speed.

These d-men have to be developed, but can also be acquired through trade. Boychuk was acquired by Boston before he broke out. McQuaid was developed. Ference was aquired. Greene was acquired by trade by LA. Scuderi and Mitchell were UFA signings.
Stuart, Sarich, Gleason. Guys I'd push real hard for in a trade.

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02-13-2013, 04:07 PM
  #244
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Stuart, Sarich, Gleason. Guys I'd push real hard for in a trade.
Forget Brad Stuart, he has already said that it was San Jose or nothing and the Wings did him this favor by trading him to the Sharks last June and he signed a 3-years extension with them

edit: Unless you talked about Mark Stuart !

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02-13-2013, 04:20 PM
  #245
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Forget Brad Stuart, he has already said that it was San Jose or nothing and the Wings did him this favor by trading him to the Sharks last June and he signed a 3-years extension with them

edit: Unless you talked about Mark Stuart !
Yes, it is Mark Stuart that I am talking about. Been a favorite of mine since he was with the Bruins. He used to destroy Akost at least once a game. hahaha

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02-13-2013, 04:28 PM
  #246
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When was the last time Weber played? He is wasting away and his low value is only getting lower.
what if he plays and doesn't play well? Then his value gets lower doesn't it

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02-13-2013, 04:58 PM
  #247
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I don't think so either. Obviously they'd let Gallagher know the reason why and that he'd be back very soon, so it wouldn't be some big mysterious crushing blow to the kid. But still, it would seem like a lot of disruption to their overall team plan, and be perceived as a knee-jerk reaction to the Toronto thrashing... I can't see them being that reactionary, or wanting to seem to be that reactionary. Maybe if there was genuinely a roster opening and it really affected nothing to claim Kassian, but not when it forces their hand in other ways.
Always really enjoy and respect your opinions BG and rarely disagree with them but this time I feel I must.

I'm not inclined to "knee jerk reactions" based on one game, even a game like the one with the Leafs. I've been around too long for that, but the fact remains that Orr tried to take out our top centre (and perhaps BEST PLAYER) when he took the run at Pleks. If any other Leaf and tried that, I wouldn't like it but could let it pass and someone like Prust could have dealt with it, but this was their top enforcer Orr and he knew he could do it with impunity because there simply was no one on the Habs bench who was able to take him to task on it. No team can afford to give guys like Orr a "free pass" on going after their best players. There has to be a response. Whether such action SHOULD be required is another matter, but the fact is no team can afford to let something like that slide or be ignored.

Would Orr have tried that on Pleks if Kassian was on the Habs bench or on the ice. Maybe, hard to say but I'm pretty sure that that Kassian would have discussed the matter with Orr and perhaps impressed upon Orr that such conduct as trying to take out our best players was an ill-advised way to proceed.

Contrary to what some posters here think, guys like Kassian do not appear all the time on the waiver wire. There's an old saying: "When opportunity knocks, don't complain about the noise." Kassian is just sitting there and he is needed on this team. You make room for him and before the Habs play Toronto again, you show Kassian a video of what Orr tried to do on Pleks and ask him to "discuss" the matter with Orr the next game against Toronto.

I am quite sure that the thing that prompted Gainey to get Laroque was the little lecture Peters gave the entire Habs bench before the game ever started against Buffalo, which strangely enough, occurred not long before Laroque came on the scene. Strangely enough, the Habs lost that game. Unfortunately Laroque "found Jesus" and was not as active as we would have hoped BUT the Habs never got lectured again by Peters (or anyone else) before a game while Laroque was there. Like I said, some things you just can't permit to happen and Gainey was smart enough to know what Peters did was one of them.

I am very interested on how Bergevin reacts to this opportunity to get Kassian. I sincerely hope he doesn't let it pass.

I'm just an old geezer so maybe I'm too much of a dinosaur but that's my 2 cents.

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02-13-2013, 04:59 PM
  #248
disturbedraven
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I can already see it now

Step 1: Bandwagon for habs to claim Kassian
Step 2: Habs claim Kassian, Bandwagon fans rejoice
Step 3: Kassian plays 1-2 games for Habs, Bandwagon fans revolt due to: a) isn't fighting enough, b) isn't putting up enough points in a 4th line role among Eller and Moen, c) he isn't getting enough icetime yet complain when we don't score enough goals, d) Kassian becomes the forward version of Hal Gill (with fighting ability) and becomes nothing more than a pylon to which teams take advantage of. e) all of the above


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02-13-2013, 05:14 PM
  #249
Blind Gardien
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FisherKing View Post
...
I am very interested on how Bergevin reacts to this opportunity to get Kassian. I sincerely hope he doesn't let it pass.
...
Good post, but I think everybody who promotes the claiming of Kassian should be obligated to also suggest their favourite corresponding roster move.

I'm fine with claiming Kassian if it means trading/waiving Kaberle, for example. Because I feel like Kaberle is a goner anyway, and is redundant even for his depth defense role with Weber.

I still have enough hope for White and Weber that I wouldn't be fine with waiving one of them to make room.

I'd be fine with waiving Armstrong too, except I automatically discount that as even being a possibility, given his connection to Therrien.

The only other option is the temporary demotion of Gallagher. I'd be on the fence with that one. Maybe if I had a trade in the works that I *knew* would enable his recall, but which wasn't quite consummated yet, I could be ok with this. If it was just waiting for an injury and introducing the possibility of a recurring issue of trying to juggle for that last roster spot... then no.

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02-13-2013, 05:21 PM
  #250
HiggsBozon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
Good post, but I think everybody who promotes the claiming of Kassian should be obligated to also suggest their favourite corresponding roster move.

I'm fine with claiming Kassian if it means trading/waiving Kaberle, for example. Because I feel like Kaberle is a goner anyway, and is redundant even for his depth defense role with Weber.

I still have enough hope for White and Weber that I wouldn't be fine with waiving one of them to make room.

I'd be fine with waiving Armstrong too, except I automatically discount that as even being a possibility, given his connection to Therrien.

The only other option is the temporary demotion of Gallagher. I'd be on the fence with that one. Maybe if I had a trade in the works that I *knew* would enable his recall, but which wasn't quite consummated yet, I could be ok with this. If it was just waiting for an injury and introducing the possibility of a recurring issue of trying to juggle for that last roster spot... then no.
you have 2 extra d-men. Weber and Kaberle. And every day of the week, Kaberle, while being... Kaberle, is less horrible than Weber. He's also not half the passer Kaberle is, and he is never playing.

I personally have absolutely 0 hope left for Weber. He's ran out of chances. It's time to move on and to try to get whatever you can get for him. Buy-out Kaberle in the summer after this.

Whenever Nokalainen comes back, waive him.

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