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Old
02-13-2013, 12:43 PM
  #876
stokes84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Navy Goat View Post
The issue is you have no idea if Girgs will develop anywhere near the offense that ROR brings...in fact he brings about the same offense as Ennis but with a substantial increase in the defensive aspect of the game. The only thing Ennis has more than ROR is the speed and dynamic element he brings to the table. I'd prefer to keep both but I'd gladly move Ennis to get ROR.
And a much better contract. ROR will be playing with Foligno, not Landeskog. You think he will put up the same numbers? I don't.

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02-13-2013, 12:50 PM
  #877
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One option is for Regier to negotiate the framework of a deal with ROR's agent. Then call Sherman and say you've worked out a deal with O'Reilly--do not tell him the terms--and you'd prefer to work out a hockey trade with the Avs but if Sherman hangs up the phone without a deal being reached, O'Reilly will sign the offer sheet one minute later.

At that point, Sherman's options are: (a) work out a trade with the Sabres; (b) hope Regier is bluffing, but if he isn't and the Sabres sign him to an OS, Regier may have just hurt your asset's value by signing him to a contract some teams may not be willing to insert into their payroll.

I strongly doubt that Darcy would ever engage another GM in such an adverserial manner, but it'd be refreshing.

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02-13-2013, 12:58 PM
  #878
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
And a much better contract. ROR will be playing with Foligno, not Landeskog. You think he will put up the same numbers? I don't.
You're speculating about who he'd be playing with. You're also assuming, at least in part, that Landeskog drove O'Reilly's production, and marginalizing the possibility that O'Reilly drove Landeskog's production or they were just a really good combo. Also, if you look at O'Reilly's WoWY stats, pretty much every forward O'Reilly played with did better with him than without him. There isn't really an argument that he doesn't make players better.

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02-13-2013, 01:11 PM
  #879
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
You're speculating about who he'd be playing with. You're also assuming, at least in part, that Landeskog drove O'Reilly's production, and marginalizing the possibility that O'Reilly drove Landeskog's production or they were just a really good combo. Also, if you look at O'Reilly's WoWY stats, pretty much every forward O'Reilly played with did better with him than without him. There isn't really an argument that he doesn't make players better.
I am assuming VHS won't be broken up, and that whoever ROR will be playing with won't have half the talent of Landeskog. Landeskog is going to be a top 10 forward in the near future with or without ROR, so I don't think it hurt a bit. ROR can be a really nice player, and for the right price, do it. I just think everyone is shooting way too high here, given the circumstances. Considering this has become about Ennis and you all know I consider him better than CoHo, I wouldn't trade CoHo+ for him either.

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02-13-2013, 01:25 PM
  #880
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Considering Ennis is the ONLY scoring we have outside of our top line, offensive production is a massive hole which would only get bigger. We have an asset developing what O'Reilly brings as well, so that argument falls flat.
It's amazing that you can say things like "giving O'reilly a contract he hasn't earned"... and yet say with a straight face that we have a 19 year old developing who can bring what Oreilly has already demonstrated at the NHL level.

It's like me saying we have an asset developing that brings what Ennis brings (Catennacci)

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02-13-2013, 01:28 PM
  #881
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
And a much better contract. ROR will be playing with Foligno, not Landeskog. You think he will put up the same numbers? I don't.
who knows who he would be playing with... we are building for the future.... for all I know he'll be playing with Girgensons and Armia

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02-13-2013, 01:31 PM
  #882
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
I am assuming VHS won't be broken up, and that whoever ROR will be playing with won't have half the talent of Landeskog. Landeskog is going to be a top 10 forward in the near future with or without ROR, so I don't think it hurt a bit. ROR can be a really nice player, and for the right price, do it. I just think everyone is shooting way too high here, given the circumstances. Considering this has become about Ennis and you all know I consider him better than CoHo, I wouldn't trade CoHo+ for him either.
No it's about O'reilly... but has morphed into your inability to recognize his value due to both not knowing enough about him and being perturbed by the number of people willing to part with your favorite player.

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02-13-2013, 01:32 PM
  #883
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It's no different than the offseason Jordan Staal debate... you didn't want to trade Ennis for him either...

You don't know what it takes to build a winner... and you like flashy players

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02-13-2013, 01:32 PM
  #884
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
It's amazing that you can say things like "giving O'reilly a contract he hasn't earned"... and yet say with a straight face that we have a 19 year old developing who can bring what Oreilly has already demonstrated at the NHL level.

It's like me saying we have an asset developing that brings what Ennis brings (Catennacci)



You did say that, and I assume you meant Grigorenko, who hasn't proven squat yet.

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02-13-2013, 01:35 PM
  #885
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
[/B]
You did say that, and I assume you meant Grigorenko, who hasn't proven squat yet.
please find that quote... there is a difference between "brings what player X brings" and "having someone to fill the role (secondary scoring center).

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02-13-2013, 01:36 PM
  #886
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the team is simply better structured going forward with a center core of:
Hodgson, Oreilly, Grigorenko
than it is with
Hodgson, Ennis, Grigorenko

that's obvious to anyone with even the slightest idea of what it takes to win in the NHL today (with regards to the construction of a roster)

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02-13-2013, 01:38 PM
  #887
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The only things I take off the table in a deal for ROR are Grigs, Vanek & Pominville and the latter two have no interest to COL's front office anyway because of $$

Won't be Myers for the same reason.

It's going to be Ennis or Sekera + one of the other first/second round propsects in the pipe - and I'm totally OK with that.

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Old
02-13-2013, 01:38 PM
  #888
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
please find that quote... there is a difference between "brings what player X brings" and "having someone to fill the role (secondary scoring center).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Actually, you're the one missing the dynamics. All you seem to recognize is offensive production. Completely oblivious to the massive hole that Oreilly would fill... while we have an asset developing to replace Ennis' secondary scoring. Your bias blinds you to the dynamics in regards to Buffalo
Right here.

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02-13-2013, 01:42 PM
  #889
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Regier's alleged interest in Staal last offseason has me thinking he's at least kicking the tires on O'Reilly.

This team is clearly devoid of a defensive center and O'Reilly would certainly fit the bill. Organizationally, we have that prospective piece in place in Girgensons. That said, I'm a little less willing to move Zemgus in a trade for O'Reilly as in a matter of two seasons they could form two-thirds of a dynamic checking line.

It's akin to people rationalizing the trade of Kassian by saying that we have Foligno in the system. There is nothing wrong with having two players of that ilk (disclaimer: I'm still a proponent of that trade).

Having a legitimate scoring line in Vanek-Hodgson/Grigorenko-Pominville backed up by a checking line of Girgensons-O'Reilly-xxx in a matter of seasons would be organizationally smart and go a long way in building a champion in Buffalo.

With physical players like Foligno, Ott and Tropp and defensive players like Catenacci and Kaleta rounding out a bottom six highlighted by Grigorenko/Hodgson*as a pivot benefiting from easy minutes, the team is in great shape. A nice blend of offense, defense and physicality among the forwards.

Ennis is excluded because I'd move him for O'Reilly. If Regier isn't talking to Sherman, and as such not recognizing an organizational need, he ought to be on the chopping block - right there with Lindy.


Last edited by gallagt01: 02-13-2013 at 02:05 PM.
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Old
02-13-2013, 01:49 PM
  #890
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
Right here.
exactly... that's not the same thing. But I realize you aren't able to understand the subtle difference between skill set and spot in the lineup.

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02-13-2013, 01:54 PM
  #891
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
exactly... that's not the same thing. But I realize you aren't able to understand the subtle difference between skill set and spot in the lineup.


It's a joke that you would try to argue something like that. Hey, that's your personality, I guess.

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02-13-2013, 01:57 PM
  #892
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If ROR lands somewhere else for a package that I thought Regier could have trumped....

Sekera/Ennis/Stafford plus Armia/JGL/Pysyk works for me.

I'd prefer to keep the 2013 1st and Girgs. But, if one of those is the prospect piece, I'd live with it.

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02-13-2013, 02:04 PM
  #893
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post


It's a joke that you would try to argue something like that. Hey, that's your personality, I guess.
I think the difference between "what Oreilly brings" and "secondary scoring" is no joke at all.

But it does highlight the difference between what we value.

You value secondary scoring... I value shut down centers MUCH more

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02-13-2013, 02:10 PM
  #894
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
I think the difference between "what Oreilly brings" and "secondary scoring" is no joke at all.

But it does highlight the difference between what we value.

You value secondary scoring... I value shut down centers MUCH more
We can agree on that... For now.

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02-13-2013, 02:16 PM
  #895
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Originally Posted by Loods View Post
Regier's alleged interest in Staal last offseason has me thinking he's at least kicking the tires on O'Reilly.

This team is clearly devoid of a defensive center and O'Reilly would certainly fit the bill. Organizationally, we have that prospective piece in place in Girgensons. That said, I'm a little less willing to move Zemgus in a trade for O'Reilly as in a matter of two seasons they could form two-thirds of a dynamic checking line.

It's akin to people rationalizing the trade of Kassian by saying that we have Foligno in the system. There is nothing wrong with having two players of that ilk (disclaimer: I'm still a proponent of that trade).

Having a legitimate scoring line in Vanek-Hodgson/Grigorenko-Pominville backed up by a checking line of Girgensons-O'Reilly-xxx in a matter of seasons would be organizationally smart and go a long way in building a champion in Buffalo.

With physical players like Foligno, Ott and Tropp and defensive players like Catenacci and Kaleta rounding out a bottom six highlighted by Grigorenko/Hodgson*as a pivot benefiting from easy minutes, the team is in great shape. A nice blend of offense, defense and physicality among the forwards.

Ennis is excluded because I'd move him for O'Reilly. If Regier isn't talking to Sherman, and as such not recognizing an organizational need, he ought to be on the chopping block - right there with Lindy.
I have little doubt Regier has interest and has inquired about O'Reilly. My concern is whether he can bring it home.

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02-13-2013, 02:18 PM
  #896
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loods View Post
Regier's alleged interest in Staal last offseason has me thinking he's at least kicking the tires on O'Reilly.

This team is clearly devoid of a defensive center and O'Reilly would certainly fit the bill. Organizationally, we have that prospective piece in place in Girgensons. That said, I'm a little less willing to move Zemgus in a trade for O'Reilly as in a matter of two seasons they could form two-thirds of a dynamic checking line.

It's akin to people rationalizing the trade of Kassian by saying that we have Foligno in the system. There is nothing wrong with having two players of that ilk (disclaimer: I'm still a proponent of that trade).

Having a legitimate scoring line in Vanek-Hodgson/Grigorenko-Pominville backed up by a checking line of Girgensons-O'Reilly-xxx in a matter of seasons would be organizationally smart and go a long way in building a champion in Buffalo.

With physical players like Foligno, Ott and Tropp and defensive players like Catenacci and Kaleta rounding out a bottom six highlighted by Grigorenko/Hodgson*as a pivot benefiting from easy minutes, the team is in great shape. A nice blend of offense, defense and physicality among the forwards.

Ennis is excluded because I'd move him for O'Reilly. If Regier isn't talking to Sherman, and as such not recognizing an organizational need, he ought to be on the chopping block - right there with Lindy.
Oreilly makes Girgenson an even better piece of the puzzle... because ideally, he plays/wreaks havoc on the wing with Oreilly. That's 2 pieces of a future playoff caliber shutdown line

Vanek-Hodgson-Pommer
Girgensons-Oreilly-XXXX
Foligno-Grigorenko-Armia

Buy out Leino
Dump Stafford
Let all the free agents walk
Plenty of cap space to re-sign Vanek and Pommer

Rebuild the blueline

Find a new coach

Dream '16

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02-13-2013, 02:19 PM
  #897
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
I have little doubt Regier has interest and has inquired about O'Reilly. My concern is whether he can bring it home.
I don't think he's willing to go the offersheet route...

The question is whether he is willing to part with the high value pieces necessary to get Oreilly

If he's willing to trade Ennis.... then a deal should be within reach

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02-13-2013, 02:20 PM
  #898
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I strongly doubt that Darcy would ever engage another GM in such an adverserial manner, but it'd be refreshing.
He did trade for the temporary negotiating rights to Christian Ehrhoff... so who knows. Also was willing to give up a just drafted power forward prospect, thought that may have been more luck that Kassian was one of the few prospects Gillis wanted.

My point is, we're seeing more agressive moves out of Regier, so I wouldn't be shocked.

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02-13-2013, 02:22 PM
  #899
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
I don't think he's willing to go the offersheet route...

The question is whether he is willing to part with the high value pieces necessary to get Oreilly

If he's willing to trade Ennis.... then a deal should be within reach
He should be willing to go to the OS route, but that's another issue entirely.

The bolded is where I can see things breaking down--Colorado will want Ennis (the type of contract they wanted to give O'Reilly, and for less money), and Regier will want to give up Sekera/Stafford +.

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02-13-2013, 02:24 PM
  #900
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Oreilly makes Girgenson an even better piece of the puzzle... because ideally, he plays/wreaks havoc on the wing with Oreilly. That's 2 pieces of a future playoff caliber shutdown line

Vanek-Hodgson-Pommer
Girgensons-Oreilly-XXXX
Foligno-Grigorenko-Armia

Buy out Leino
Dump Stafford
Let all the free agents walk
Plenty of cap space to re-sign Vanek and Pommer

Rebuild the blueline

Find a new coach

Dream '16
I could be jumping the gun, but Catenacci could be the final piece of that checking line.

You need defense-oriented forwards to get it done in tight-checking games. Girgensons-O'Reilly-Cat could be fast, in your face and dynamic.

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