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NBA "sunbelt" expansion has also failed

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Old
02-12-2013, 01:06 AM
  #51
tarheelhockey
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Would YOU spend your own discretionary income to watch the Charlotte Bobcats?

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02-12-2013, 01:08 AM
  #52
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Who changed the title? Someone bitter about hockey working in Carolina and Florida?

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02-12-2013, 05:14 AM
  #53
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Miami Heat as part of this topic. LOL.

Please, the owner has made a killing on the team, the tickets are expensive as hell and they sell out, easily, for the games worth watching.

Getting to the arena sucks, parking sucks and Miami is starting to suck.

No point in driving down to biscayne blvd, dealing with locals and tourists to watch the Heat play the Bobcats or the Magic. Have a better seat watching the game 60 miles north on a 60"HDtv.

Besides, the NBA can't be compared to the NHL. All you need is a star and 1-2 good players around him. Throw a D. Wade, Kobe, Howard or LeBron in Charlotte.
They'll go from a lotto team to a team that is contending for a playoff spot.

Ps, Miami is awful. So overrated. The only thing worth going to is some of the clubs for a night.

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02-12-2013, 05:25 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by OKCDevil View Post
I love how you mention the sun belt teams in the NBA but neglect to mention how OKC is tearing it up and has been sold out pretty much its entire time in OKC.
Well, let's keep in mind that the Thunder aren't an expansion team. They pulled up stakes from Seattle, with a bonafide franchise player (Kevin Durant) to quickly build a contender around. We'll see how loyal the OKC fans are when their roster gets old and the team endures losing seasons as part of a rebuilding process.

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02-12-2013, 06:46 AM
  #55
tarheelhockey
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Besides, the NBA can't be compared to the NHL. All you need is a star and 1-2 good players around him. Throw a D. Wade, Kobe, Howard or LeBron in Charlotte.
.
Kobe WAS drafted by Charlotte, and pulled a Lindros in order to get to the Lakers.

LeBron... have you forgotten already?

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02-12-2013, 07:03 AM
  #56
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The NBA has no parity, so fans have little reason to watch unless they are one of a few teams with superstars. A fundamentally broken business model has made it this way.
Parity is a cop out used to defend bandwagon fans or bad owners who haven't built any loyalty within their market. It's always the same cities that draw bad in all sports when they have a bad team.

The Raptors and TFC have been brutal for a decade yet they manage to hit 90-100% capacity every night and that's in a city with more to do then almost every other city in North America.

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02-12-2013, 10:31 AM
  #57
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Parity is a cop out used to defend bandwagon fans or bad owners who haven't built any loyalty within their market. It's always the same cities that draw bad in all sports when they have a bad team.

The Raptors and TFC have been brutal for a decade yet they manage to hit 90-100% capacity every night and that's in a city with more to do then almost every other city in North America.
That's because MLSE has a monopoly on canadian sports.

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02-12-2013, 11:40 AM
  #58
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For all the grief the "sunbelt" NHL teams get the NBA isnt doing any better. Charlotte is a joke. Atlanta attendance is pittful. The Miami heat cant get people to show up despite Lebron.Memphis is also a joke. New orleans Hornets were very close to relocating. Why does the NHL get all the flak for there southern expansion?
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I've said it before and I'll say it again

The South as a whole could care less about Pro sports, they LOVE their college sports though

Give or take a few pro teams in the South that actually do well
Excatly. I have been saying this for years. This is a sports problem. Those who get mad at hockeys problems in the south don't realize that the NFL is having the same issues.

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02-12-2013, 11:44 AM
  #59
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Florida as a whole is one of the worst state for sports. No idea why it has two NHL teams.
Probably has to do with the 20 million people living there.

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02-12-2013, 11:46 AM
  #60
Melrose Munch
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Originally Posted by syc View Post
Parity is a cop out used to defend bandwagon fans or bad owners who haven't built any loyalty within their market. It's always the same cities that draw bad in all sports when they have a bad team.

The Raptors and TFC have been brutal for a decade yet they manage to hit 90-100% capacity every night and that's in a city with more to do then almost every other city in North America.
amen.

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02-12-2013, 10:27 PM
  #61
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Kobe WAS drafted by Charlotte, and pulled a Lindros in order to get to the Lakers.

LeBron... have you forgotten already?
True but Lebron was in Cleveland for how long?

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02-12-2013, 10:31 PM
  #62
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Parity is a cop out
Parity is not a cop out. Put another way, it means fans in every market have a compelling reason to watch and pay for the product. Are you somehow under the impression that the parity seen in the NHL post lockout hasn't contributed to increased revenues?

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02-12-2013, 10:41 PM
  #63
tarheelhockey
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True but Lebron was in Cleveland for how long?
7 years, at which point he made a television production out of giving the organization the finger.

I just think its funny to see an argument that drafting superstars can help small-market NBA teams when the past two generational stars have made a public point of selecting their large-market destination. And before that was a generation when the superstars played in Chicago, Boston and LA from day one.

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02-12-2013, 11:03 PM
  #64
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Parity is not a cop out. Put another way, it means fans in every market have a compelling reason to watch and pay for the product. Are you somehow under the impression that the parity seen in the NHL post lockout hasn't contributed to increased revenues?
He means in all sports not just hockey. It seems the same cities have bad attendance everywhere. across the big 4, cap or no cap.
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
7 years, at which point he made a television production out of giving the organization the finger.

I just think its funny to see an argument that drafting superstars can help small-market NBA teams when the past two generational stars have made a public point of selecting their large-market destination. And before that was a generation when the superstars played in Chicago, Boston and LA from day one.
That's very true.

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02-12-2013, 11:18 PM
  #65
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He means in all sports not just hockey. It seems the same cities have bad attendance everywhere. across the big 4, cap or no cap.
There's a Canadian bias at play here. Most Canadian cities do not have teams in every major pro sport, and there's little competition among the teams. In many cities in the United States, it's the complete opposite. The Phoenix Suns went from one of the most exciting teams to ever hit the court to now flailing around as one of the leagues worst. Attendance and ratings are way down. How, exactly, is that an indictment on the average sports fan? The basketball being played is meaningless, and the organization shows no signs of improving. Quite simply, people don't want to pay for a **** product. Having the ability to watch comfortably from home for free in high definition doesn't help.

Teams that do not have any sort of correlation between performance and attendance (Cubs, Leafs, Habs, Red Sox) etc... are often cultural institutions in their respective cities. A team like the Lakers could be very, very bad for a long time and still enjoy strong attendance due to their past glories and market situation. Other teams don't have this advantage, because they don't have the appeal to pull it off. Parity levels the playing field between the great markets and the not so great. If every team in the NBA stood a chance to win the title each year, attendance wouldn't be so bad. Unless you root for the Celtics, Lakers or Heat, there really isn't much point to watching or attending. That's bad for business.

For the vast majority of fans and teams, simply going for the spectacle of the sport is not enough anymore. I'd personally go pay to watch the Oilers, because they are an exciting team despite being low in the standings. I wouldn't go pay to watch Columbus or the Islanders, because they are not exciting and ice a poor product. It's really not that complicated. People want something worth cheering for, and worth spending money on. A bandwagon team enjoys new found support because it's winning, and winning often indicates that it's a good product being put out.

You can lament these 'bad fans' all you want but they are the paying majority. Dealing with them makes or breaks teams.

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02-13-2013, 12:03 AM
  #66
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Well, let's keep in mind that the Thunder aren't an expansion team. They pulled up stakes from Seattle, with a bonafide franchise player (Kevin Durant) to quickly build a contender around. We'll see how loyal the OKC fans are when their roster gets old and the team endures losing seasons as part of a rebuilding process.
I can't control circumstance. It was easy being an Avs fan right out of the gate, too. Also, San Antonio (from Dallas... yes, check it), Memphis and New Orleans weren't expansion teams either when they moved.

I'm not worried about the long-term viability of the Thunder in OKC, a city on the rise with awesome corporate support and a growing metro area. We're becoming a recipient of west coast expats wanting to get away from the insanity there. Hell, that's how I got here.

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02-13-2013, 12:57 AM
  #67
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Unlike the NHL they have a huge national TV deal to draw from. So attendance does not matter as much.
Umm, I'd be willing to bet that when the Canadian TV deal is renewed they wont be that far apart from the NBA in total TV revenue of the U.S. and Canada combined...

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02-13-2013, 09:44 AM
  #68
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Well, let's keep in mind that the Thunder aren't an expansion team. They pulled up stakes from Seattle, with a bonafide franchise player (Kevin Durant) to quickly build a contender around. We'll see how loyal the OKC fans are when their roster gets old and the team endures losing seasons as part of a rebuilding process.
They had Hornets for a season after Katrina, sold out every game and was loud and energetic.

OKC is probably a lot like Winnipeg in terms of fandom, 1 team, and they are going to love it regardless.

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02-13-2013, 09:52 AM
  #69
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Umm, I'd be willing to bet that when the Canadian TV deal is renewed they wont be that far apart from the NBA in total TV revenue of the U.S. and Canada combined...
Can I take you up on that bet?

NBA receives $960 Million a year from TV

NHL receives $200Million a year from NBC, $100Million from CBC and I heard $60Million from TSN but can't confirm. You are saying Canadian TV will pay something around $760 Million a year to match NBA. They may get $200-$250 but don't expect much more.

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02-13-2013, 10:20 AM
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Can I take you up on that bet?

NBA receives $960 Million a year from TV

NHL receives $200Million a year from NBC, $100Million from CBC and I heard $60Million from TSN but can't confirm. You are saying Canadian TV will pay something around $760 Million a year to match NBA. They may get $200-$250 but don't expect much more.
The $160mil they're currently getting will easily hit $250mil and maybe even as high as $350.

No one has any idea how big TSN is willing to go.

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02-13-2013, 12:20 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Swarez99 View Post
Can I take you up on that bet?

NBA receives $960 Million a year from TV

NHL receives $200Million a year from NBC, $100Million from CBC and I heard $60Million from TSN but can't confirm. You are saying Canadian TV will pay something around $760 Million a year to match NBA. They may get $200-$250 but don't expect much more.

It's been widely rumored that they want to go the NFL route and have contracts with multiple platforms.

Toss in Winnipeg as a 7th team added since the last go round, and quite frankly it wouldn't surprise me if they strategically drop expansion plans right in the wake of those negotiations. Add Quebec City and/or Toronto II and you're looking at an additional three teams.

The NHL can play CBC like a fiddle considering the constant talk was that CBC was absolutely dead during the lockout.

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02-13-2013, 02:11 PM
  #72
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Buffalo also doesn't seem like a long-term viable market if there's going to be another team in the GTA-Hamilton area.
ya the WNY/Southren Ontario region(like 10 million people combined all where hockey is the number one sport) can easily support 3 teams and Buffalo is one of the top 5 national tv draws in the country, they get more national tv games than Chicago for christs sake

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02-13-2013, 02:51 PM
  #73
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They had Hornets for a season after Katrina, sold out every game and was loud and energetic.

OKC is probably a lot like Winnipeg in terms of fandom, 1 team, and they are going to love it regardless.
Exactly. It's just so funny how OKC is now a basketball mecca or whatever. The arena the Thunder play in, Chesapeake Arena, was built to spec for the NHL! You'll recall it was OKC and Houston left out of the last round of expansion. Well, the arena was finished in time for what would have been the start of the 2002-03 hockey season. It has a giant press box/sky suite section at the top of it - something not put in arenas looking for basketball first. But the NHL never came calling officially and when Katrina took place, OKC was the only city in the region with a pro-level arena empty in a market big enough to support a team - although there was questions if that would even take place. People were worried the Hornets would draw 7,500 a night for no-name teams and only sell out for the Lakers, Spurs, Mavs, etc. But from the start, the place was sold out and both years of the Hornets saw giant crowds.

By that time, this market, a football first, second and fourth market, was in love with Chris Paul and the Hornets. But they went back to New Orleans. That one season without the NBA was torture for The City, so once the Thunder arrived we instantly latched onto KD and Westbrook. And that first team was terrible, to the tune of 20-62 or something like that. Even so, we loved them from the start.

So yes, I can see a lot of similarities between OKC and Winnipeg when it comes to being a one-sport town all-in with its team. All you used to see in OKC was OU and OSU stuff and Dallas Cowboys too. Now? I'd say Thunder clothes are sighted about 50 percent of the time when it comes to sports clothing worn in OKC. And I'm talking year-round. The Thunder have given OKC an identity and the team has become a family member to most, including me.

Now, 10 years of 30-win seasons would make it hard to show up to games, but aside from a mystical few spots, that would be the case anywhere. But that's not likely an issue for us for another 10 years, as Durant and Westbrook have both re-upped for long-term deals and want to win here, together. We'll see what the future holds, but OKC is definitely Thundered-out just as Winnipeg is Jetsed-out.

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02-13-2013, 05:05 PM
  #74
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The reality is that hockey doesn't work in small cities or suburbs... generally the places where the NHL expanded to... and happen to correlate with these "southern teams".
You don't get out much from your little hole in the wall , do you?

Buffalo doesn't work? another team in tornot buffalo will be fine. the issue is Hamilton---its too close and will draw from their market/fan base. If you look at Buffalo including the Canadian population near with an hr drive Buffalo has well over 3 million people....enough to support a franchise.

The issue with the South---as in----the area of Arkansas/Louisiana over to Caolinas excluding FLA and TX. You have many smaller cities that are strong college sports markets.

Atlanta, Nashville, Charlotte, and Raleigh are loaded with northern transplants. Same true with TX and FL.

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02-13-2013, 10:39 PM
  #75
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Exactly. It's just so funny how OKC is now a basketball mecca or whatever. The arena the Thunder play in, Chesapeake Arena, was built to spec for the NHL! You'll recall it was OKC and Houston left out of the last round of expansion. Well, the arena was finished in time for what would have been the start of the 2002-03 hockey season. It has a giant press box/sky suite section at the top of it - something not put in arenas looking for basketball first. But the NHL never came calling officially and when Katrina took place, OKC was the only city in the region with a pro-level arena empty in a market big enough to support a team - although there was questions if that would even take place. People were worried the Hornets would draw 7,500 a night for no-name teams and only sell out for the Lakers, Spurs, Mavs, etc. But from the start, the place was sold out and both years of the Hornets saw giant crowds.

By that time, this market, a football first, second and fourth market, was in love with Chris Paul and the Hornets. But they went back to New Orleans. That one season without the NBA was torture for The City, so once the Thunder arrived we instantly latched onto KD and Westbrook. And that first team was terrible, to the tune of 20-62 or something like that. Even so, we loved them from the start.

So yes, I can see a lot of similarities between OKC and Winnipeg when it comes to being a one-sport town all-in with its team. All you used to see in OKC was OU and OSU stuff and Dallas Cowboys too. Now? I'd say Thunder clothes are sighted about 50 percent of the time when it comes to sports clothing worn in OKC. And I'm talking year-round. The Thunder have given OKC an identity and the team has become a family member to most, including me.

Now, 10 years of 30-win seasons would make it hard to show up to games, but aside from a mystical few spots, that would be the case anywhere. But that's not likely an issue for us for another 10 years, as Durant and Westbrook have both re-upped for long-term deals and want to win here, together. We'll see what the future holds, but OKC is definitely Thundered-out just as Winnipeg is Jetsed-out.
To be fair, OKC may not have been a pro basketball market in itself, but basketball does have a rich tradition in the Plains with Kansas being one of the powerhouses of the college game, but also good traditions at OSU, OU, KSU, Wichita State, Creighton, Missouri and even Oklahoma City University who are now a NAIA powerhouse but were a pretty good NCAA program up to the 60s.

Also the title can't be serious. Expansion teams will always be a good bet to be in trouble for the simple reason that there's likely a good reason a market wasn't among the first choices for a team and this likelihood is going to increase with every expansion. It's like a market draft, of course the 4th round will on average turn out worse than the 1st round.

But the distinction is that some of the most popular franchises in the NBA are "Sun Belt" franchises and if anything they have some problems with some Northern franchises, whether it's the Cavs, Bucks, Pacers or T'Wolves.
In the NBA you can really say the problems are franchise-specific, whereas there's a pretty obvious regional variation in the NHL especially in terms of local TV ratings (the most reliable indicator of market team popularity IMO) from the Canadian teams at the top to the unsuccessful Southern teams at the bottom. Franchise-specific reasons play a role too but the regional issue obviously does, too, unlike in the NBA.

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