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Old
02-13-2013, 02:24 PM
  #526
Faterson
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It makes sense for Dinamo Riga, the Western Conference's weakest team this season, to "send out" the most clueless poster to HFBoards. If Latvia played hockey the way this guy does his "research" using Google Translate, they'd be relegated to "C" pool within 2 years. I thought Latvians in general were knowledgeable hockey fans, but he's now embarrassing them all (along with the club, that has had enough suffering this season already).

Meanwhile, the Slovan fan club is contemplating sending the 3rd plane with fans to that final, meaningless regular season game in Riga -- a symbolic gesture.

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02-13-2013, 02:27 PM
  #527
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
if KHL needs Dinamo Riga, club will not collapse. Yes, new owner can come, not a big deal.
The owner of Dinamo Riga is the government of Russia (the majority stakeholder ITERA Latvia is owned by ITERA group, which in turn is essentially a subsidiary company of Gazprom, which is controlled by the Russian government). So, no, there won't be a new owner. There might be a new manager, but not an owner.

You won't find an entrepreneur who's willing to suffer €10 million losses per year with no chances of ever returning a profit.

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02-13-2013, 02:30 PM
  #528
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PS: If it was up to me, I'd cancel all those planes to Riga and send them to the 2 play-off games to (very likely) Moscow instead! That's where Slovan will need the fan support most. Also, from a "tourist" point of view, attending 2 games instead of just 1, makes it less expensive -- and they could also have a look around Moscow instead of just flying back immediately after the game, which is kinda dumb.

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02-13-2013, 02:39 PM
  #529
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Namejs

What do you think about bussiness model of european soccer clubs/leagues?

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02-13-2013, 02:59 PM
  #530
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
Namejs

What do you think about bussiness model of european soccer clubs/leagues?
I don't know much about soccer, to be honest, so I can't talk about it in detail.

What I do know is that there's a number of billionaires from various parts of the world, who have acquired football clubs as their personal toys, so they're not expecting any profits to roll in.

If that's what you were hinting at, I don't think KHL is comparable to that in any way, as most of the losses are covered by the Russian government and not hockey-crazed billionaires. It's essentially a single trillionaire - the Russian state, figuratively speaking.

The problem with that is that:
a) those are tax dollars;
b) the flow of money rests on the stability of the Russian political establishment;
c) in case of a larger shift in Russian politics or in case of a global energy crisis, the entire league would collapse miserably, destroying the entire Russian hockey pyramid, along with the hockey pyramid of several other countries.

Because I'm Latvian, I have several other reasons to be against a continued mismanagement of the KHL, as it, in my opinion, damages the chances of developing hockey in Latvia in the long-term. The current situation is absolutely artificial and unsustainable.

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02-13-2013, 03:24 PM
  #531
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I don't think KHL is comparable to that in any way, as most of the losses are covered by the Russian government and not hockey-crazed billionaires.
comparing soccer and KHL. Try to find out what is Qatar Investment Authority (QIA), it is connection to PSG and who is owner of QIA. The same situation like you said, replace Russia by Qatar.

Why should I care where are money from? You can not be serious by saying

Quote:
c) in case of a larger shift in Russian politics or in case of a global energy crisis, the entire league would collapse miserably, destroying the entire Russian hockey pyramid, along with the hockey pyramid of several other countries.
no change next 20 years.


Last edited by MoreMogilny: 02-13-2013 at 05:41 PM.
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02-13-2013, 03:25 PM
  #532
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Originally Posted by Namejs View Post
From a free market perspective, it is absolutely irrational to create a new team on the other side of the globe.

The only rationale for keeping a team there is:
a) developing a professional hockey team in every part of Russia (so that clearly makes the KHL a Russian hockey league with a primary task of serving local Russian interests);
b) discouraging any decent and actually profitable European teams from joining the league.

Thinking like this defines the KHL and is the main reason why KHL will never be profitable.
The fact is, there is far more economic growth potential in Vladivostok then there is in Riga. Vladivostok is a major seaport, and the fact is that economic growth in the World is tilting toward the Asian-Pacific region. Growing hockey in the Far East is in the best interest of both the KHL and Russia. It is ridiculous to say that hockey in a vast region of Russia should be abandoned, especially when there is a very successful franchise there. It may be too long a flight from Riga, in which case Dinamo may decide that it is no longer feasible to maintain a KHL franchise. We would hate to see it go, but it has always been anticipated that some franchises would fall by the wayside.

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Old
02-13-2013, 03:29 PM
  #533
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Did you get PM? Just asking...

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02-13-2013, 03:34 PM
  #534
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Originally Posted by Latgale_fan View Post
. Medvescak would be even bigger challenges as these are not really hockey markets per se but... the same could be said for many early NHL cities.
Sure that Zagreb is not traditional hockey market per se, but since EBEL came to Zagreb, hockey is most attended sport in Zagreb by far, and showing almost no signs of decline. After all, due to great att numbers Medvedev has shown interest in getting Medvescak to KHL. Season tickets for next season are already at sale and Medvescak board said that in case of joining KHL they won't raise the price.

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02-13-2013, 03:43 PM
  #535
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Originally Posted by CroHabitant View Post
Sure that Zagreb is not traditional hockey market per se, but since EBEL came to Zagreb, hockey is most attended sport in Zagreb by far, and showing almost no signs of decline. After all, due to great att numbers Medvedev has shown interest in getting Medvescak to KHL. Season tickets for next season are already at sale and Medvescak board said that in case of joining KHL they won't raise the price.
any news in local press about Medvescak joining KHL next season? Will they apply?

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02-13-2013, 03:51 PM
  #536
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
any news in local press about Medvescak joining KHL next season? Will they apply?
For now nothing new. It is still "They are 95%" in, as Medvedev said back in Septmeber when he was with his Gazprom team in Pula where Medvescak played its two games in old Roman colloseum.

Upcoming arrival of Jakub Gasparovic (made debut for Slovakian NT this year) could be a sign. I doubt that 22-year forward with very good stats in Slovakian extraleague would switch Dukla for Medveščak just before playoffs if not for some inside information he got from Medvescak board. Player of his calibre would probably try to get a job in league like DEL, maybe SM-Liiga, not EBEL.

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02-13-2013, 03:54 PM
  #537
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Originally Posted by CroHabitant View Post
For now nothing new. It is still "They are 95%" in, as Medvedev said back in Septmeber when he was with his Gazprom team in Pula where Medvescak played its two games in old Roman colloseum.

Upcoming arrival of Jakub Gasparovic (made debut for Slovakian NT this year) could be a sign. I doubt that 22-year forward with very good stats in Slovakian extraleague would switch Dukla for Medveščak just before playoffs if not for some inside information he got from Medvescak board. Player of his calibre would probably try to get a job in league like DEL, maybe SM-Liiga, not EBEL.
that makes sense, we will see.

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02-13-2013, 04:00 PM
  #538
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Originally Posted by Namejs View Post
Nope, I wasn't looking at MHL tickets. http://www.sport-now.ru/hockey-amur.html This is where I got the data from.
And you call that an official website? Okay... It is not.

Now you're missing the point which is: if we take the number of seats of each price category, multiply it by the price of those tickets, sum it up and conclude an average ticket price we'll see that it is higher than in Riga (I hope I've explained it simple enough for you to understand). So it doesn't matter if you can find a seat for 2 euros or not (you can't btw), in the end Amur is getting more money from tickets than Riga. In Amur case that is 4 million dollars. Which is not surprising because the average salary in Khabarovsk is 1,5 times higher than in Riga (GDP or not, you should really read more about it, it's not a measure of personal wealth). And this could as well explain why every summer they get 30 000 requests for season tickets despite its cost, comparing that to Riga who has a couple of sell outs per season. That is the market. And that is 4 mln out of 15 already, in just a 7k seat arena, without TV, Merchandise and sponsor money. I'd say they have a bright future.

Now I find it funny that you're trying to pretend to be "informed" and at the same time suggesting to get rid of Amur for whatever stupid reasons that came into your head. It's just nonsense. Oh man, you were this close (3 places in season standings) to naming Vityaz and getting everyone to agree with you.


Last edited by MoreMogilny: 02-13-2013 at 05:42 PM.
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Old
02-13-2013, 04:07 PM
  #539
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
Dear Namejs, it is pointless to discuss with you, but I will try.


comparing soccer and KHL. Try to find out what is Qatar Investment Authority (QIA), it is connection to PSG and who is owner of QIA. The same situation like you said, replace Russia by Qatar.
Except that Qatar doesn't own all of French professional football teams and their junior affiliates, so the comparison is invalid.

Quote:
no change next 20 years.
Here's where we disagree. Going deeper into the politics of that would mean I'd break the rules, so I'm not going to discuss that.

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02-13-2013, 04:24 PM
  #540
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And you call that an official website? Okay... It is not.
I can't remember hundreds of sites I've visited throughout the day from the top of my head, so sorry for the mistake. That's surely not an official site, but it's the only source I could find. If you can provide a more reliable source, be my guest.

Quote:
Now you're missing the point which is: if we take the number of seats of each price category, multiply it by the price of those tickets, sum it up and conclude an average ticket price we'll see that it is higher than in Riga
LOL. You're still not getting the point. Why are you mentioning Riga all the time? The tickets here are too cheap as well, relative to the budget the team has.

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In Amur case that is 4 million dollars.
Source?

Quote:
Which is not surprising because the average salary in Khabarovsk is 1,5 times higher than in Riga (GDP or not, you should really read more about it, it's not a measure of personal wealth).
GDP is not a measure of personal wealth, but there's a strong correlation between the GDP levels and personal wealth. So as long as we don't have any official data regarding the average salary in Riga or Khabarovsk, that's the only reliable piece of data we can currently use. In any case, as I already have repeatedly said, Riga IS NOT a suitable place to host an elite-level ice hockey team.

Once again, you haven't provided any sources, so all of your numbers are worthless.

Quote:
That is the market. And that is 4 mln out of 15 already, in just a 7k seat arena, without TV, Merchandise and sponsor money. I'd say they have a bright future.
What 4 million? Also, the budget is 17 million, with most professional teams (in the NHL, for instance) earning the bulk of their income through ticket sales. Even if the 4 mln figure is correct, it's nowhere near being profitable.

Also, what TV, merchandise and sponsor money are you talking about?

Quote:
Now I find it funny that you're trying to pretend to be "informed" and at the same time suggesting to get rid of Amur for whatever stupid reasons that came into your head. It's just nonsense. Oh man, you were this close (3 places in season standings) to naming Vityaz and having everyone agree with you.

Your other political blabbering is not even amusing. I don't think any of us, forumers, wanted to become a witnesses to your personal breakdown, those Russian Oligarchs... it must have been hard for you.
I genuinely don't understand what you're saying in the 2 paragraphs above.

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Old
02-13-2013, 04:35 PM
  #541
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Would be great to see 20-25 000 arena in Khabarovsk one day. Any chance next lets say 10 yrs?

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02-13-2013, 04:41 PM
  #542
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
The fact is, there is far more economic growth potential in Vladivostok then there is in Riga. Vladivostok is a major seaport, and the fact is that economic growth in the World is tilting toward the Asian-Pacific region. Growing hockey in the Far East is in the best interest of both the KHL and Russia. It is ridiculous to say that hockey in a vast region of Russia should be abandoned, especially when there is a very successful franchise there. It may be too long a flight from Riga, in which case Dinamo may decide that it is no longer feasible to maintain a KHL franchise. We would hate to see it go, but it has always been anticipated that some franchises would fall by the wayside.
Sorry, do you speak English? I love the fact that every single one of you is trying to have a go at the city of Riga or Dinamo Riga, when I have repeatedly said that Dinamo Riga is unsustainable as well.

Ladies, this is not about who lives in a bigger, wealthier city, it's about the economic management of KHL. If KHL wants to become a profitable enterprise with most of their teams being profitable or at least capable of breaking even without massive governmental assistance, the only rational step is to add already established teams from Europe from countries with a big hockey following.

The KHL has made several succesful decisions in this context, but if the KHL wants to move in the same direction and wants to become a financially self-sustainable league (in the long-term), it has to get rid of the smaller teams and teams, which are counter-productive in attaining that goal. Amur is one of them.

KHL has to transform from being a glorified Russian championship with some foreign teams thrown into the mix to actually becoming a "continental" league with as many European clubs as possible.

The market in Far East Russia is limited purely because of the small population size and economic capacity.

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02-13-2013, 04:44 PM
  #543
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Originally Posted by Namejs View Post
I can't remember hundreds of sites I've visited throughout the day from the top of my head, so sorry for the mistake. That's surely not an official site, but it's the only source I could find. If you can provide a more reliable source, be my guest.
Already did, pay attention next time.

Quote:
LOL. You're still not getting the point. Why are you mentioning Riga all the time? The tickets here are too cheap as well, relative to the budget the team has.
Because both teams are among the most expensive places to watch hockey in Eurasia.

Quote:
Source?
Math.

Quote:
GDP is not a measure of personal wealth, but there's a strong correlation between the GDP levels and personal wealth. So as long as we don't have any official data regarding the average salary in Riga or Khabarovsk, that's the only reliable piece of data we can currently use. In any case, as I already have repeatedly said, Riga IS NOT a suitable place to host an elite-level ice hockey team.
Then I guess you're trying to say that the only place suitable is USA with their inflated prices?

Anyway, here is the official data about salaries in Khabarovsk. http://news.mail.ru/inregions/fareas...mics/11005536/

Riga won't take you long to google. Especially in Latvian.

Quote:
Once again, you haven't provided any sources, so all of your numbers are worthless.
So you want me to post tens and tens of links in a single post? I think I'm wasting enough time on you already as it is.

Quote:
What 4 million? Also, the budget is 17 million, with most professional teams (in the NHL, for instance) earning the bulk of their income through ticket sales. Even if the 4 mln figure is correct, it's nowhere near being profitable.
LOL at having the nerve to correct the budget figure.

Source for the budget pls! Now that is actually the closed information, compared to info about average salaries, ticket prices and attendances. So take your time.

Quote:
Also, what TV, merchandise and sponsor money are you talking about?
If you don't know what the merchandise or advertising is - look it up in dictionary.

Quote:
I genuinely don't understand what you're saying in the 2 paragraphs above.
Don't worry, it was meant to cheer up others, I didn't expect your answer anyway.

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02-13-2013, 04:57 PM
  #544
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Originally Posted by Namejs View Post
The KHL has made several succesful decisions in this context, but if the KHL wants to move in the same direction and wants to become a financially self-sustainable league (in the long-term), it has to get rid of the smaller teams and teams, which are counter-productive in attaining that goal. Amur is one of them.
Okay. That's it guys. I tried, I really did, but I think that this level of lunacy is too much for me to read. The team that is in top 20 Europe attendance-wise, and has one of the most expensive tickets in Eurasia, in a region of 1,3 mln people... that team is counter-productive... cool beans!

I leave him to you.


Last edited by ult: 02-13-2013 at 05:03 PM.
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02-13-2013, 05:15 PM
  #545
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Oh, the horror! Most of us kinda feel that it would be in the best interests of our hockey that we'd go even further and have our best team playing strictly in Latvia, meaning we have a healthy local hockey community like Switzerland does.
That would have both upsides and downsizes.

I admit it is not really a healthy situation when there is only one elite hockey club in a hockey country. Latvian hockey could benefit from more competition inside its borders.

Then again, forming a good domestic hockey league requires money which Latvia does not have. If Dinamo Riga was to be dismembered where would it's players go. They would not play in Latvian league but they would go the other KHL clubs or Finnish, Swedish, Czech, Swiss, German etc. leagues.

The only change Latvian hockey fans to see players like Karsums, Indrasis and foreigners such as Giroux is that Dinamo remains in the KHL.

And why can't Latvia form a domestic league while Dinamo plays in the KHL? They are not mutually exclusive things.

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02-13-2013, 05:16 PM
  #546
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Sorry, do you speak English? I love the fact that every single one of you is trying to have a go at the city of Riga or Dinamo Riga, when I have repeatedly said that Dinamo Riga is unsustainable as well.

Ladies, this is not about who lives in a bigger, wealthier city, it's about the economic management of KHL. If KHL wants to become a profitable enterprise with most of their teams being profitable or at least capable of breaking even without massive governmental assistance, the only rational step is to add already established teams from Europe from countries with a big hockey following.

You know, it is not so easy to add already established teams from Europe. Do you think that KHL leadership is bunch of clowns who dont know what to do? AIK Stockholm - denied by federation. Do you want swedish clubs in KHL? As you know, Swedes does not care about hockey if attendance of EHT/WHC is a "proof". You have Slovan and Lev, hockey countries. Switzerland? There is a Helvetics project. Germany? Rumours about 3-4 clubs. Established euro clubs have now the evidence - Slovan - the success story. Slovan is not KHL project team, it has long history. The same like Eisberan or so.

The KHL has made several succesful decisions in this context, but if the KHL wants to move in the same direction and wants to become a financially self-sustainable league (in the long-term), it has to get rid of the smaller teams and teams, which are counter-productive in attaining that goal. Amur is one of them.

Dont worry, it will happen one day. You can not ged rid of smaller teams now. You need them, because you dont have substitution for them from Europe/Asia.

Dont agree with Amur leaving


KHL has to transform from being a glorified Russian championship with some foreign teams thrown into the mix to actually becoming a "continental" league with as many European clubs as possible.

The market in Far East Russia is limited purely because of the small population size and economic capacity.

A few ppl wrote about potential of Far East. You still dont get it. Lets discuss the topic in 2033
bold the answers

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02-13-2013, 05:28 PM
  #547
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Originally Posted by ult View Post
Already did, pay attention next time.
No, you didn't. There are no sources in your previous posts, or the links you've posted are without sourced material themselves.


Quote:
Because both teams are among the most expensive places to watch hockey in Eurasia.
No, they're not. Try Sweden, Switzerland, Finland.

Quote:
Math.
Seriously? The source for ticket prices and the number of seats in each category are all in your head?


Quote:
Then I guess you're trying to say that the only place suitable is USA with their inflated prices?
Inflated prices? What are you talking about? Tickets should be the main source of income for any team. So the total earnings from ticket sales should make roughly a half or slightly less of the total expenses of the respective team.

There are plenty of places in Europe that would be suitable. But that's the thing, we aren't talking about Russia here.

Quote:
Anyway, here is the official data about salaries in Khabarovsk. http://news.mail.ru/inregions/fareas...mics/11005536/
That figure isn't very helpful, because there's no data regarding the distribution of salaries/economic inequality. A very high-earning upper class seriously skews up the results. Any sources from an actual statistics department or something of that sort?

If the figure is correct and there's no enormous income disparity, it's still nowhere near to fund the current team budget. The arena capacity should be increased by at least 100% for the team not to be considered a black hole for any real investments.

Quote:
So you want me to post tens and tens of links in a single post? I think I'm wasting enough time on you already as it is.
I think having just 1 source per every claim made is pretty fair.



Quote:
LOL at having the nerve to correct the budget figure.

Source for the budget pls! Now that is actually the closed information, compared to info about average salaries, ticket prices and attendances. So take your time.
There are various claims regarding the size of Amur's budget. For instance, http://www.aif.ru/sport/article/58130 here the budget is reported to be much higher than both your and my claim.


Quote:
If you don't know what the merchandise or advertising is - look it up in dictionary.
I think that's the only place where the managers of Amur are seeing these words.

If you disagree, how much have they earned by selling merchandise or tv rights? Any sources to back you up? I bet there aren't.

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02-13-2013, 05:37 PM
  #548
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
Yakushev72

Did you get PM? Just asking...
No. I didn't look at my inbox. Sorry. I'll check it out. Thanks, Vorky.

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02-13-2013, 05:38 PM
  #549
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Originally Posted by Peter25 View Post
That would have both upsides and downsizes.

I admit it is not really a healthy situation when there is only one elite hockey club in a hockey country. Latvian hockey could benefit from more competition inside its borders.

Then again, forming a good domestic hockey league requires money which Latvia does not have. If Dinamo Riga was to be dismembered where would it's players go. They would not play in Latvian league but they would go the other KHL clubs or Finnish, Swedish, Czech, Swiss, German etc. leagues.

The only change Latvian hockey fans to see players like Karsums, Indrasis and foreigners such as Giroux is that Dinamo remains in the KHL.

And why can't Latvia form a domestic league while Dinamo plays in the KHL? They are not mutually exclusive things.
Your first fully rational post in ages. I agree, and, unfortunately, I can't really answer the question you pose in the last paragraph because it's truly baffling.

Personally (I'm not pretending everyone agrees with me) I'm ok with giving up the cream of the crop as long we have at least BOL-like league. So our up and coming kids can have place where to start their pro careers in their home and not feeding Swedish second tier junior teams till they end their careers prematurely. Basically KHL (and it's orbit) is great for everyone in it, but leaves rest of our hockey in a deep, deep ditch.

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02-13-2013, 05:40 PM
  #550
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