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How bad does Pegula look now?

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Old
02-13-2013, 02:59 PM
  #201
SackTastic
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Originally Posted by Myllz View Post
You presume a hell of a lot in that.
What, exactly, did I presume?

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02-13-2013, 03:08 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by sabrefan27 View Post
He's the owner of a hockey team. That's what matters. The other stuff is great, but ultimately, the product on the ice rules at the end of the day.
I am talking about the hockey team. I care that he makes the right decisions and gets the team closer to the goal of a cup. It doesn't have to be NOWNOWNOW. It will come.

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02-13-2013, 03:11 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by vcv View Post
I am talking about the hockey team. I care that he makes the right decisions and gets the team closer to the goal of a cup. It doesn't have to be NOWNOWNOW. It will come.
Oh yeah? When is that? 5 years from now? How much more evidence needs to mount that Ruff needs to go? Patience is not a good thing right now in this case.

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02-13-2013, 03:26 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by sabrefan27 View Post
Oh yeah? When is that? 5 years from now? How much more evidence needs to mount that Ruff needs to go? Patience is not a good thing right now in this case.
I think it's clear that anyone thinks 5 years from now would be FAR too long. There need be no more evidence, for us.

Do you think patience from Terry is actually hurting the team long term? Or is it just an annoyance for those of us (everyone) who think Ruff needs to go?

I simply need to see how this all shakes out in the end to have a better picture of what the reasons were for keeping Ruff, both in the beginning and through out the struggles. Anything right now is speculation and I don't think that serves anyone well.

Maybe Ruff isn't out the door for another year and a half and all the information comes out indicating that Terry never wanted Ruff out until the very end. If that's the case, my opinion WOULD change.

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02-13-2013, 03:31 PM
  #205
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Pegula should have said i will evaluate the team for 3 yrs. Then make my decision. This cup in 3 years seems like a pitch to sell tickets. And that he is doing.

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02-13-2013, 03:41 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by vcv View Post

Do you think patience from Terry is actually hurting the team long term? Or is it just an annoyance for those of us (everyone) who think Ruff needs to go?

.
Yes I do. Ruff as a coach is preventing the team from moving on and starting a fresh course with a new coach. What's the point of Ruff staying? Even you admitted this can't go on for another couple of years. He's stale. He's done. The longer Pegula, Regier or Black wait the more they're hurting the franchise.

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02-13-2013, 03:52 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by sabrefan27 View Post
How much more evidence needs to mount that Ruff needs to go? Patience is not a good thing right now in this case.
I'm fine with it being the end of the year, for several reasons.

This year is going to be a wash regardless, so it's actually better for us if Ruff stays. We'll have a better pick.

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02-13-2013, 03:53 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by vcv View Post
I think it's clear that anyone thinks 5 years from now would be FAR too long. There need be no more evidence, for us.

Do you think patience from Terry is actually hurting the team long term? Or is it just an annoyance for those of us (everyone) who think Ruff needs to go?

I simply need to see how this all shakes out in the end to have a better picture of what the reasons were for keeping Ruff, both in the beginning and through out the struggles. Anything right now is speculation and I don't think that serves anyone well.

Maybe Ruff isn't out the door for another year and a half and all the information comes out indicating that Terry never wanted Ruff out until the very end. If that's the case, my opinion WOULD change.
Yes, at this point it is. If Ruff here, it means we are still pretending in the "3 year window". Every day that this franchise moves forward under that same plan, is another day that is hurting our future.

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02-13-2013, 03:54 PM
  #209
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As fans all we can do is call it by what we see on the ice each night, and what we are seeing we aren't liking. Sure Pegula has the right to take time and not make snap decisions regarding Regeir/Ruff, but the point is he HAS had time now.

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02-13-2013, 04:22 PM
  #210
Layne Staley
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Originally Posted by SackTastic View Post
Because some of us have lived through almost 15 years of unstable and generally crappy ownership, and we're happy to have an owner like Pegula who has money and passion to make the franchise better for years to come.
Golisano was the furthest thing from unstable. He was an average but solid enough owner, we spent around the top half of the league in his last few years as owner. Golisano has had more success then Pegula. Think Pegula will make back to back conference finals in the first 4 years as owner like Golisano?

Golisano is the only reason that Terry Pegula was able to buy the BUFFALO Sabres and not the Seattle Paul Allen's. BTG is the only reason we still have a team, he is more of a savior then Pegula.

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02-13-2013, 04:31 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Layne Staley View Post
Golisano was the furthest thing from unstable. He was an average but solid enough owner, we spent around the top half of the league in his last few years as owner. Golisano has had more success then Pegula. Think Pegula will make back to back conference finals in the first 4 years as owner like Golisano?

Golisano is the only reason that Terry Pegula was able to buy the BUFFALO Sabres and not the Seattle Paul Allen's. BTG is the only reason we still have a team, he is more of a savior then Pegula.
BTG deserves credit for buying the team, and keeping them here. Nobody disputes that.

He was also an absentee landlord, and his edict of breakeven and fiscal stability over on ice performance was, frankly, a huge detriment to this organization.

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02-13-2013, 05:07 PM
  #212
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If this team continues to tank I think Terry will make changes...but I don't think that will happen until seasons end. What he is likely waiting for is the mid season surge this group tends to do only to fall 2 points short of making the playoffs.

Sarcasm aside...I'm guessing Pegs is trying to evaluate exactly what he has...aka, "Is this team truly this bad?" and will wait the season out to make his judgement.

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02-13-2013, 05:09 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by sabresandcanucks View Post
If this team continues to tank I think Terry will make changes...but I don't think that will happen until seasons end. What he is likely waiting for is the mid season surge this group tends to do only to fall 2 points short of making the playoffs.

Sarcasm aside...I'm guessing Pegs is trying to evaluate exactly what he has...aka, "Is this team truly this bad?" and will wait the season out to make his judgement.
Answer....yes.

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02-13-2013, 05:16 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by Newcastlesabre View Post
Answer....yes.
Agreed....but as a manager of a business myself, I understand the caution to ensure you know absolutely what you have before making major changes.

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02-13-2013, 05:16 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by vcv View Post
Or is it just an annoyance for those of us (everyone) who think Ruff needs to go?
Not everyone.


Lol. I cannot believe that I am the only lindy ruff supporter.

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02-13-2013, 05:20 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by sabresandcanucks View Post
Agreed....but as a manager of a business myself, I understand the caution to ensure you know absolutely what you have before making major changes.
How far do you take that caution though? It's so obvious now to everyone how far behind we are, we are going backwards.

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02-13-2013, 05:56 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by Newcastlesabre View Post
How far do you take that caution though? It's so obvious now to everyone how far behind we are, we are going backwards.
Obvious to people who don't have the requisite knowledge to make that decision intelligently. You and I may hit on Ruff needing to go, but making decisions based on "How I feel today" isn't how you achieve success.

I'll restate because it's important. While Ruff going may be the right decision, no one on this forum has the full breadth of information to make that decision. We can judge based on what information we do have, but in no way are we making the same decision that the Sabres organization is in regards to Ruff.

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02-13-2013, 06:25 PM
  #218
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Thats a fair comment Jeremy. But this feeling amongst fans isn't based on how we feel today is it? Its a feeling which is building as we move form set back to set back. I understand that such a decision can't be taken lightly and may have repercussions beyond what we can see. It is however natural of fans to want a fix asap. They pay alot of money to support the team and naturally this then gives them a voice. Its a two way street and as much as we have to understand the difficulties in changing a coach etc, the fans do have to be listened to as well.

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02-13-2013, 06:49 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by vcv View Post
Do you think patience from Terry is actually hurting the team long term?
Not in the long term.

Depends on perspective and timing. Fans are normally worried about the extreme short term. Pegula's patience probably hurts here. Team owners have longer time horizons. From a long-term ownership perspective, Pegula's patience is likely a great thing. 2016, three years from now, is long term for a fan. It's near term for a business. Most of Pegula's actions have more long term implications (creation of a winning, family culture) than short term.

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02-13-2013, 07:31 PM
  #220
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Originally Posted by Newcastlesabre View Post
Thats a fair comment Jeremy. But this feeling amongst fans isn't based on how we feel today is it? Its a feeling which is building as we move form set back to set back. I understand that such a decision can't be taken lightly and may have repercussions beyond what we can see. It is however natural of fans to want a fix asap. They pay alot of money to support the team and naturally this then gives them a voice. Its a two way street and as much as we have to understand the difficulties in changing a coach etc, the fans do have to be listened to as well.
I really think the late surge last season has caused Terry to not over-react. He has seen this core turn it around...albeit too late last year and just soon enough the season before...So he is going to give Lindy the season before pulling the trigger. Again, I also think that the whole management team is trying to figure out just how bad this team is before making some major changes as well. I think even they agree that the product on the ice is mediocre at best.

The interesting dynamic to all this in my opinion is that I don't think Lindy and Darcy are on the same page anymore. This is not to say they are at each others throats but rather that Regier is attempting to build a good team "on paper"...now that he has free reign to do so...and may not be valuing Ruff's opinion as much as he once did. I believe Ruff wants to be a gm and knows that is not going to happen here. In short, I would not be surprised if Lindy is hoping this will be his last season as coach here as well.

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02-13-2013, 07:46 PM
  #221
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Originally Posted by Der Jaeger View Post
Not in the long term.

Depends on perspective and timing. Fans are normally worried about the extreme short term. Pegula's patience probably hurts here. Team owners have longer time horizons. From a long-term ownership perspective, Pegula's patience is likely a great thing. 2016, three years from now, is long term for a fan. It's near term for a business. Most of Pegula's actions have more long term implications (creation of a winning, family culture) than short term.
With the cap and the limited windows that players have at the top of their game, long-term horizons are a bit dangerous, aren't they?

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02-13-2013, 07:59 PM
  #222
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All I have to say is this:

Columbus, which has been crappy since day 1 and in many respects is even worse off than Buffalo, actually had the stones to sack Niles Crane's other brother(Regier being the first)Scott Howson the other day and replaced him with Jarmo Kekalainen, who worked under John Davidson in St. Louis as its assistant GM/scouting director. Odds are, Jarmo had a hand in making the Blues a damned good team today-and I hope he'll do the same in Columbus.

With us, we're lucky if Pegs(or his advisors)can get his stones out of his purse. Like it or not, two years is more than enough time to get a read on the team.

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02-13-2013, 08:05 PM
  #223
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It isn't like we haven't seen this play out before in Buffalo. As a long time fan, it's just another cycle. We miss the playoffs for a few years, barely get in in a few years.....we completely suck for 20 straight games in a season, then can't do anything wrong for a while. Sure, I think that at times, the product on the ice looks a little stale, like right now. But the blame doesn't fall on just one part of the organization. The players, the coaches, the GM office...heck, you can even throw the ownership in there if you want. They all play a part in the breakdown.

The question is, how do you change the culture of all this repetition? The easiest way is to fire the coaching staff, that brings an instant change to a team. Changing the GM doesn't change much "right now", only over the long term as trades, signings and the drafts transform the team. Ownership isn't going anywhere, and you certainly can't change the roster overnight.

So if Pegula is serious about his 3 year plan, he doesn't have much choice right now than to pull Regier in his office in the AM and telling him to "walk down the hall and fire your friend or you can kiss that 4 year extension goodbye"

Lindy will re-surface, he will get up the next day, he will be offered another job somewhere, their is little doubt. But the culture needs to change right now....

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02-13-2013, 08:17 PM
  #224
Myllz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SackTastic View Post
What, exactly, did I presume?
Well, let's see...

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Originally Posted by SackTastic View Post
"I, random hockey fan, know more about how to run a business than a man who built a $4B enterprise from scratch.
You presume people don't know more than Pegula does about running a team. There are people on here that have been watching, playing and focused on hockey for 20+ years. Just because Pegula has the money to buy a professional team doesn't mean he knows more about running one than everyone else. Him running a $4 billion oil company doesn't mean he automatically knows how to run a hockey club.

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I know what I see on TV, and that makes me more qualified to know what to do than someone who spent months and months doing due diligence on the team and employees before he bought it, and spends more time in a day involved in the inner workings of the operation than I spend ever.
All presumptions. You don't know what Pegula did prior to buying the team, nor do you know how he spends his time on a daily basis.

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It's obvious to ME that something should have been done, therefore I am correct!!"
It's obvious to lots of people, not just the person you're representing with this post. Majority rule isn't always correct, but don't pretend like it's just a few people who think something should have been done by now.

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02-13-2013, 08:29 PM
  #225
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Originally Posted by Slapshot85 View Post
With the cap and the limited windows that players have at the top of their game, long-term horizons are a bit dangerous, aren't they?
In the long term, Pegula should be worried about creating an organization that players, staff, coaches, etc. want to be a part of. It's his flagship franchise idea, and it's a good one. I want him to fire Ruff too, but keeping him for another year has minimal impact on a goal that's going to take a lot longer than 3 years to reach.

Companies need long time horizons, but remain flexible in the short term. If Ruff is gone this season or the next is really immaterial in the long term goals Pegula has for the franchise.

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