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Brian Burke Thread - March 2013

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Old
02-13-2013, 09:57 AM
  #276
ACC1224
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It's ironic how "realists" rarely visit reality.

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02-13-2013, 10:07 AM
  #277
7even
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Burke did as best he could, and he left us what is here. He had quite a bit to work with, it is a myth to state otherwise.

He landed Phaneuf with the assets the team had. Just like he landed Pronger in Anaheim with 4 first rounders (and a 2nd.), and he used assets Anaheim had to do so. There was no magic involved in either of those transactions.

The Lupul and Gardiner deal has to go down as his best with the Leafs. Signing a UFA, and then dealing him when it turned out to be a mistake and landing Lupul and Gardiner approaches the magic cateory.

Trading Kubina for nothing ... I still don't know the reasoning here, unless it was Rotten Ronnie wanting to get the leadership out of the room. I can see RR having personality conflicts with strong individuals. Didn't want Sundin back, they bought out Tucker, paid to move McCabe, and dumped Kubina. Kaberle was not the leader type of personality, so that left the room void. Team played like it as well. This was not all Burke's doing, but perhaps this year is the first we might see some leadership on the ice.

He landed Kessel with assets the Leafs had, 2 first rounders and a 2nd.

He landed Biggs and Colborne with an asset the Leafs had, Kaberle.

He drafted players with assets the league gave him, the league gave every GM the same number of draft picks. That's not something a GM needs to do, they are gifted with those assets every year.

The team last year looked pretty good, although some knew they could not sustain their early season success because the coach did not implement a system that would work under pressure. We had a long discussion about outscoring their issues. Just doesn't work, eventually you need to win close, tough, hard fought games.

We can thank Burke for belatedly replacing the coach with the current coach, who appears to be engaged during games. Hopefully his system will hold up when the season starts getting serious.

Burke gets the credit he deserves, same as JFj gets his credit, and Quinn and ... before them.
Great post ULF. The Kubina trade threw me for a loop too.

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02-13-2013, 05:31 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by CrazeeEddie View Post
Funny, Burke only hired one head coach in Toronto. Any guesses on his name?
So he can take full credit for the plethora of JFJ talent playing on the Leafs and elsewhere because he was smart enough to re-sign them or trade them for better value...but the obnoxious jerk who happened to be his college room mate, one of his closest freinds and his "number one star" was extended and kept on far too long...cannot be attributed to Burke.

Furthermore, yes this is Burkes team but by the time the team is any good (if that ever happens and its certainly not there after 13 freaking games) it will be as much Burke's team as his team was JFJ's.....Such a dumb argument...thank you Burke for the great team that brought us an 8-5 start when last year Leafs started 10-4...how did that end up?

At least wait until "Burkes team" proves something before thanking the fraud.

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02-13-2013, 05:36 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by ACC1224 View Post
It's ironic how "realists" rarely visit reality.
Im pretty sure that is the very definition of a realist...one who lives in reality. In case you have missed how the Toronto Maple Leafs have performed over the last decade, I suggest you do the research....because the reality is not pretty. I dont know what reality you live in.

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02-13-2013, 07:53 PM
  #280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfanz View Post
So he can take full credit for the plethora of JFJ talent playing on the Leafs and elsewhere because he was smart enough to re-sign them or trade them for better value...but the obnoxious jerk who happened to be his college room mate, one of his closest freinds and his "number one star" was extended and kept on far too long...cannot be attributed to Burke.

Furthermore, yes this is Burkes team but by the time the team is any good (if that ever happens and its certainly not there after 13 freaking games) it will be as much Burke's team as his team was JFJ's.....Such a dumb argument...thank you Burke for the great team that brought us an 8-5 start when last year Leafs started 10-4...how did that end up?

At least wait until "Burkes team" proves something before thanking the fraud.
Lol.
Way to go off for no apparent reason.

I will repeat again, for the hundredth time. Giving Burke credit for what he's done doesn't mean you can't give credit to JFJ for what he did.
Saying that Burke did some good does not mean you agree with everything he did.
Saying that this is largely still Burke body of work does not mean you think this team is Stanley Cup bound.

Any other arguments you'd like to throw out that I'm not making?

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02-13-2013, 07:55 PM
  #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazeeEddie View Post
Lol.
Way to go off for no apparent reason.

I will repeat again, for the hundredth time. Giving Burke credit for what he's done doesn't mean you can't give credit to JFJ for what he did.
Saying that Burke did some good does not mean you agree with everything he did.
Saying that this is largely still Burke body of work does not mean you think this team is Stanley Cup bound.

Any other arguments you'd like to throw out that I'm not making?
The best thing Burke did was get fired. We dont need his arrogant, confrontational attitude near this team. Team moral seems higher than ever. He played a part in almost ruining Kadri, Franson and Frattin.

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02-13-2013, 07:55 PM
  #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfanz View Post
Im pretty sure that is the very definition of a realist...one who lives in reality. In case you have missed how the Toronto Maple Leafs have performed over the last decade, I suggest you do the research....because the reality is not pretty. I dont know what reality you live in.
Nope. Reality has many different shades of grey. 'Realists' tend to live in a world of absolutes, black and white that generally leaves their arguments very shallow and lacking. It also tends to cause them to rant and put words in people's mouths that nobody has ever actually said.

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02-13-2013, 07:57 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by hockeyfanz View Post
Im pretty sure that is the very definition of a realist...one who lives in reality. In case you have missed how the Toronto Maple Leafs have performed over the last decade, I suggest you do the research....because the reality is not pretty. I dont know what reality you live in.
Difference being realists don't blame Burke for the last 10 years, where it seems yourself and others blame Burke for the cup drought since 67.

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02-13-2013, 08:00 PM
  #284
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Who cares about Burke anymore. He is gone and in the past.

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02-13-2013, 08:02 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by New Liskeard View Post
Difference being realists don't blame Burke for the last 10 years, where it seems yourself and others blame Burke for the cup drought since 67.
Again, it's a simple case of 'all or nothing'. And it only applies to this team apparently.

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02-13-2013, 08:09 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by CrazeeEddie View Post
Again, it's a simple case of 'all or nothing'. And it only applies to this team apparently.
It's quite something isn't it.

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Old
02-13-2013, 08:20 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by New Liskeard View Post
It's quite something isn't it.
Makes for interesting conversation.

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02-13-2013, 08:21 PM
  #288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mapleleaf979 View Post
The best thing Burke did was get fired. We dont need his arrogant, confrontational attitude near this team. Team moral seems higher than ever. He played a part in almost ruining Kadri, Franson and Frattin.
Agreed!!

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Old
02-13-2013, 08:23 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
Agreed!!
Me too. Kadri, Franson, and Frattin look terrible. All that time in the AHl for our youth hurt them pretty bad.

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02-14-2013, 08:07 AM
  #290
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Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
Updated with more information.

Notice the cost associated with many of these players.

Easy to just post a lineup of players. But takes a bit more effort to actually evaluate how much each player cost the team and who was inherited from previous regimes.

Notice how mistakes like Komisarek are missing from this sort of "analysis".

I dont see Brad Ross or Percy or Olden or any other bad draft choices.
Ummm u realize u are doubling up the costs.
U make it look like Burke traded beauch like 3 times and Ashton for Audie Stajan white etc.

And again it's pretty simple

Kessel.........seguin
Gardiner......Hamilton
Jvr...............schenn
Kadri............b.schen. Bahahahaha
Phaneuf.........white, Stajan, hangman
Ashton...........Audie
Lilies..............kaberle
Snowstorm......Mayers
Franson for Leda


That's at least comparable. There is no evidence to suggest that the bruins package is any better than Kessel and gardiner. Jvr for schenn looks like a steal at least based on positional needs. Kadri for Brayden looks even too. Ashton for Audie meh. 4 seasons of liles is better than 12 games of kaberle although when gardiner came up I would have tried to get something for liles.

Add in lupul, bozak, colbourne, Biggs etc and I think Burke wins..

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02-14-2013, 08:09 AM
  #291
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Originally Posted by 7even View Post
Great post ULF. The Kubina trade threw me for a loop too.
What is the point of this. Of course he used assists to get better ones...... What is he supposed to do, ask nicely??

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02-14-2013, 09:02 AM
  #292
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Originally Posted by hockeyfanz View Post
Im pretty sure that is the very definition of a realist...one who lives in reality. In case you have missed how the Toronto Maple Leafs have performed over the last decade, I suggest you do the research....because the reality is not pretty. I dont know what reality you live in.
You're doing it wrong.

Anyway, Burke did a lot of good, some bad and intimidates(for some reason) a few.

His reign is over. Time to move on and enjoy what he left as well as what's to come.

The King is dead, long live the King!

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02-14-2013, 10:25 AM
  #293
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Originally Posted by CrazeeEddie View Post
No, but when you start amassing picks after that one trade, sending veterans the other way in return, the inclination is definitely toward rebuild.

Getting hung up on one trade is blinding you to the rest of his work.

And I agree, we'll have to wait a while longer to see how it all unfolds.
I'd say 2 trades, White, Staj and Hag would have brought a nice package of pic/pros back.

How about shipping out a 2nd for Lillies?

Those are Re-tooling trades.

Not moving Mac last TD for a conditional 1rst a rebuild move?

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Old
02-14-2013, 10:30 AM
  #294
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The only thing that matters in life is results. This is especially true in the sports and business world.

The reality of the situation, hence where the term 'realists' derives, is that Brian Burke did not produce results. His winning percentage here as a general manager speaks for itself. He acknowledged as much in press conference after his firing and so did everyone else living in reality.

There is no spinning of this. This is a fact.

He left some nice pieces, yes. But so does every other general manager who does not produce results and gets fired. We only need to look as far as the recent example of Scott Howson, who left Columbus with some nice pieces. However, this does not change the fact that neither general manager produced results. So both were failures.

Nothing more needs to be said.

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Old
02-15-2013, 12:10 PM
  #295
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Originally Posted by New Liskeard View Post
Difference being realists don't blame Burke for the last 10 years, where it seems yourself and others blame Burke for the cup drought since 67.
Of course not because he wasn't the effin GM for the last 10 years...I blame Burke for his tenure only....and he sucked....his record showed it, his assesment of talent showed it, his choices of coaching, goalies etc...showed it...basically everything points to him sucking including him getting fired for being a failure. Now THAT is reality.

IF only his college "free wallets" could score like good ole Burkie...maybe he would have a job.

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02-21-2013, 07:46 AM
  #296
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Burke Deserves The Credit

I am a long time reader however I have never posted before. I made this account specifically due to the fact that I cannot for the life of me understand the Brian Burke Hate. I am a life long leafs fan that grew up and lives in NYC so I understand that its not just Toronto fans that will love or hate someone at the drop of a hat.

For me there is no question that this team is what it is today because of Brian Burke and he deserves a great deal of credit. When he took over the leafs had easily one of the worst lineups in the league and very few prospects with the exception of Frattin ect. from JF era. The future was not looking good and I couldnt find a single player on the leafs that I truly enjoyed watching....Stajan? Hagman? Blake? I mean really. We now have Phanuef, Gardener, Reily, Kessel, JVR, Lupul, Kadri....to name a few. Even if this season turns to crap...we have exciting young players that will be a part of this franchise for years to come and we did not have to tank every year to do so.




Whatever happens this year good or bad Brian Burk deserved the credit. From the style of hockey that is being played now due to him bringing in Randy Carlyle to not rushing some of our prospects who look as though they may turn into very solid NHL players.

I honestly find it pretty remarkable what this lineup looks like compared to what it was when he took over. The future looks bright so give credit where credit is due.

*Disclaimer* Written quickly at work.

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02-21-2013, 07:50 AM
  #297
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Most Leaf fans know, it's really only the (extremely) vocal minority. The further along into his plan we go, the more praise he's going to get.

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02-21-2013, 07:51 AM
  #298
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Hello Brian.

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Old
02-21-2013, 07:53 AM
  #299
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hmmmmm......wonder what the comments in this thread will be like?

Oh well, haven't had a good Burke "discussion" in about a week, maybe it'll be different this time.

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02-21-2013, 08:01 AM
  #300
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He greatly upgraded our depth, made us younger, and got us a few legitimate secondary-core players.

But also, after 4 years or whatever it was, he didn't get us any legitimate franchise players (IMO), which are also obviously the hardest to get. At some point, Nonis, or some other GM is going to have to figure out a way to get us some legitimate top end talent, Norris/Selke/Vezina/Hart potential/nominee calibre players, because without ~2 players of that calibre, you simply cannot win in this league. (Quick/Doughty/Richards, Bergeron/Chara/Thomas, Toews/Keith, Crosby/Malkin/Staal, Lidstrom/Datsyuk, Pronger/Niedermayer, E. Staal/Brind'Amour, etc as examples of guys who have all won hardware or were at least nominees).

Rielly is obviously our current biggest hope to be able to fill that type of role in the future, though that's far from a guarantee.

So yea, the team overall is better. But then again, it literally couldnt have gotten much worse at all, so after ~4 years the expectation SHOULD have been improvement on the roster and in the prospect pool. It's really hard to say if another GM would have done better/worse/the same. Because while most GMs probably wouldnt have made the Kessel trade, they also wouldnt have pulled off the Phaneuf/Gardiner/Lupul trades either, but again who knows what other trades they would have done. Impossible to say.

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