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Is Mario Lemieux a bit overrated?

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Old
02-13-2013, 07:06 PM
  #26
Walkingthroughforest
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I don't even want to imagine what 10 years from now will be like.

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02-13-2013, 07:07 PM
  #27
Samzilla
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Sigh...this is up there with the "Forsberg is better than Gretzky" discussions. No, Mario is not overrated.

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02-13-2013, 07:10 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Sir Gary Oak View Post
Hey, don't drop Mike, he's a cool guy..
thank you for commenting on that

Oh, and terrible thread for the reasons mentioned here

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02-13-2013, 07:11 PM
  #29
saskganesh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stars23 View Post
Bobby Orr played in a garage league with no Soviets or Europeans - like 95% Canadian league - and There was the WHA (who beat the NHL more often)
WHA teams were competitive against middle-ranked NHL teams in preseason exhibitions whose rosters were often not regular season rosters. That's all that data suggests.

But true enough, no Soviets. So go watch the '76 Canada Cup to see how Orr played against Europeans.

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02-13-2013, 07:11 PM
  #30
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Super Mario is my favorite player of all time. He is very comparable to Wayne.
Just another joke thread. I didnt realize it was April Fools!!
silly me.

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02-13-2013, 07:12 PM
  #31
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He's the only person to come close to Gretzky's insane 1.921 PPG. Nice try, troll.

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02-13-2013, 07:12 PM
  #32
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I like when kids look at numbers and think they've uncovered some truth about our mythical past that somehow eluded the rest of us.

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02-13-2013, 07:12 PM
  #33
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When a headline or thread title is in the form of a question, the answer is almost always "No."

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02-13-2013, 07:12 PM
  #34
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He's the most talented player I've ever seen, let alone the most talented big man. His speed was also very deceptive. Just ask Ray Bourque exactly how overrated he was.

There's so many mario lemieux stories.

What about him ripping the league apart while his back was so bad, that he couldn't tie his skates?

What about him returning from cancer in mid season, immediately leading his team to a 17 game winning streak? Not only that, but he handily won the scoring title that same season with 160 points in 60 games.

What about him returning after a 3 year retirement at age 35, in the height of the dead puck era, he returns in mid season without a training camp. He should be way behind everyone... wrong. He puts up 76 points in 43 games and leads the pens to an improbable conference final run.

That's just a few of the stories, but I wont get into his b2b stanley cups and his impressive performances in the 80's on some bad pens teams

But yeah, overrated

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02-13-2013, 07:12 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaffy View Post
Yeah, he was no good at hockey.

From wikipedia:
Records:
The 'records' you quote start to become fairly subjective , and many are 'shared' .

There is nothing wrong with that but that list tries to milk every single possible way the guy holds any kind of record at all.

Is he the tallest guy to ever get 80 goals ? Im certain Gretzky and Hull were both shorter. That should be in the NHL books too !!!!

Records that I think are legit sound records

- 6 points in an NHL all star game.

- the 13 short handed goals in a year is incredible.

- I think the scoring a goal even , short, pp, empty net and penalty shot should be an NHL record.

I doubt someone matches it but someone could even score 5 on 3 , then 3 on 5 to break it.

Oh yes, dont forget then a SHOOT OUT goal.

Many of the others he shares or need heavy spin to call it a record.

I mean, 'most goals assisted or scored as a percentage of the teams goals 57% wtf? I guess other players needed their team mates to score LESS so he could pad their totals to beat marios record.

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02-13-2013, 07:12 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saskganesh View Post
WHA teams were competitive against middle-ranked NHL teams in preseason exhibitions whose rosters were often not regular season rosters. That's all that data suggests.

But true enough, no Soviets. So go watch the '76 Canada Cup to see how Orr played against Europeans.
Not just not Soviets (still only what liek 15 Russians players in the league today? lol) - Not Soviets - No Europeans - No WHA players

Russians had B/C team - Treated it lower than Canadians treat the World Championships

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02-13-2013, 07:17 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stars23 View Post
What's wrong with having an Opinion that the NHL caters to Canadians? Talk about this place - no opinions allowed! Mods will delete it and ban you
Joe Mullen > Mario Lemieux?

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02-13-2013, 07:18 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qward View Post
This is a problem with people that are too young to have watched a player play.

I somewhat disagree with that statement.

Just look at the stats of these past greats. Mario and company easily blew away the likes of Crosby, Stamkos, Malkin, Sedin, Thorton, Karlsson etc. on stats alone.

I dont understand how fans who didnt get to see these awesome players dominate can even use that as an excuse.

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02-13-2013, 07:18 PM
  #39
Machinehead
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Is Lemieux more revered for the incredible things he can do with his combination of size and skill and his ability to make good players look stupid than he is for his actual numbers? Yes, I'll buy that. Think Rick Nash, times 1000.

But in Lemieux's case the numbers are there, and they're there in a big way.

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02-13-2013, 07:29 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stars23 View Post
In his 1995-96 and 2000-01 Stats - close to 50% of his total Goals and Assists came from the POWERPLAY - not that impressive when you look at the whole picture.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/teams/players/bio/?id=4011
Yes, Mario Lemieux scored a significant amount of his points on the powerplay. Considering he is very likely the best powerplay player of all time, and definitely ahead of Gretzky in this regard, I would say that it is in fact quite impressive that he scored as much at even strength.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Stars23 View Post
If you look in the top ES Goal Scoring Seasons - Lemieux is not even in the top 10.


In fact he has only led the league ONCE in ES GOALS!


http://www.hockey-reference.com/lead...ev_yearly.html

http://www.hockey-reference.com/lead...ev_season.html
Yes, and if Lemieux was only an even strength sniper this would be an issue. Luckily for him, he was also an incredible passer and as you already noted, deadly on the powerplay. Additionally, this does not account for the amount of games Lemieux missed when he was head and shoulders above every other player in hockey.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stars23 View Post
Also All his His International stats are average (except for the 87' playing with Gretzky and the ref's)
Even though international stats are largely irrelevant for players who mainly plied their trade in the NHL, and thus missed out on most international hockey, let's take a look.

1983 World Juniors - 10 points as a 17 year old, second on his team. Average.

1985 World Championships - 10 points in 9 games as a 19 year old. Average.

1987 Canada Cup - 18 points in 9 games as a 22 year old. Played with Gretzky and also refs throwing the puck in the net for him, so average.

2002 Olympics - 6 points in 5 games as a 36 year old who has fought various cereer threatening injuries. Average.

2004 World Cup - 5 points in 6 games as a 38 year old. Average.

Being a dominant player in international hockey, with incredibly impressive point totals, despite never playing a game of international hockey during his prime - average.

Quote:
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Discuss
No need. Your conclusions based on the available information are ridiculous.

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Pick him back up and go learn about hockey.


Last edited by JackSlater: 02-13-2013 at 07:35 PM.
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Old
02-13-2013, 07:31 PM
  #41
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If he'd have been healthy he would have had a better career than Gretzky. Definitely not overrated.

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02-13-2013, 07:37 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokey McCanucks View Post
If he'd have been healthy he would have had a better career than Gretzky. Definitely not overrated.
IMO, statements like this do overrate Mario. I don't think Mario ever played better than prime Gretzky, and Gretzky maintained that level for a very long time, until getting a serious back injury of his own. Mario probably hit Gretzky level, but he never maintained it, mostly (completely?) because of injuries.

Despite the inflammatory nature of the OP, he has a point in a way - Mario's even strength game was statistically closer to Jagr than to Gretzky. But goals (and points) on the powerplay count too, and Mario was easily the best forward of all time on the PP (its hard to compare him to Orr there).

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02-13-2013, 08:03 PM
  #43
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I have to comment on the Bobby Orr post about lack of Euros and WHA players; in the 1969-70 season there were 12 teams in the NHL and it was before the WHA, he won the Hart, Smythe, Norris, and Ross trophies! It might have been a mostly Canadian league, but the level of competition was much higher

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02-13-2013, 09:17 PM
  #44
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199 points? Ye overated.

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02-13-2013, 09:49 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
IMO, statements like this do overrate Mario. I don't think Mario ever played better than prime Gretzky, and Gretzky maintained that level for a very long time, until getting a serious back injury of his own. Mario probably hit Gretzky level, but he never maintained it, mostly (completely?) because of injuries.

Despite the inflammatory nature of the OP, he has a point in a way - Mario's even strength game was statistically closer to Jagr than to Gretzky. But goals (and points) on the powerplay count too, and Mario was easily the best forward of all time on the PP (its hard to compare him to Orr there).
I would agree. Lemieux is a clear third (for me) in terms of best forwards behind Howe and Gretzky, but he's EASILY ahead of Jagr, Esposito, Hull, Beliveau, Richard and the like.

He's the consensus fourth best player of all time. Call him overrated or underrated, but that's where most of us have him.

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02-13-2013, 09:57 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Wizeman View Post
I mean, 'most goals assisted or scored as a percentage of the teams goals 57% wtf? I guess other players needed their team mates to score LESS so he could pad their totals to beat marios record.
You don't consider Lemieux being part of 57% of the teams goals for a record, when no one has had a higher percentage? What does the bolded even mean?

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02-13-2013, 10:11 PM
  #47
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Not saying Lemieux is either of those, but I like to call out all people who still don't know the difference between the words 'overrated' and 'bad'.

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Old
02-13-2013, 10:14 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by dahrougem2 View Post
He's not overrated at all, he is one of the top 5 players in the history of this game, along with, in my opinion, Wayne Gretzky, Bobby Orr, Maurice Richard, and Patrick Roy.
Your credibility is severely damaged when you rank Richard as a top-fiver but not Howe, given that they were similar players playing the same position at the same time and Howe was clearly the superior player most seasons.

Beyond that, Richard's most notable achivement - his 50-in-50 - was during the league's weakest point in history talent-wise, and rather than win the Hart trophy Richard was centered by the Hart winner (Elmer Lach).

Quote:
Originally Posted by fish7 View Post
I have to comment on the Bobby Orr post about lack of Euros and WHA players; in the 1969-70 season there were 12 teams in the NHL and it was before the WHA, he won the Hart, Smythe, Norris, and Ross trophies! It might have been a mostly Canadian league, but the level of competition was much higher
Let's look at some things. Since the NHL's 1967 expansion, including the WHA, there have been the following number of major pro teams:

67-68 through 69-70: 12 teams
70-71 through 71-72: 14 teams
72-73 through 73-74: 28 teams (16 NHL, 12 WHA)
74-75 through 75-76: 32 teams (18 NHL, 14 WHA)
76-77: 30 teams (18 NHL, 12 WHA)
77-78: 28 teams (18 NHL, 10 WHA)
78-79: 27 teams (17 NHL, 10 WHA)
79-80 through 90-91: 21 teams
91-92: 22 teams
92-93: 24 teams
93-94 through 97-98: 26 teams
98-99: 27 teams
99-00: 28 teams
00-01 to present: 30 teams

We know that the league is around 55% Canadian, more or less. That's basically 16.5 teams worth of players. If you make the vast assumption that the quality of player development hasn't changed over the years, then yes Orr was playing against a much deeper and more skilled league. But looking at it critically, he wasn't. Even in those early pre-WHA years, the NHL didn't have the talent level it does now, simply because players on lower tiers are so much better than they used to be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goalsfordinner View Post
199 points? Ye overated.
What's really notable about that season is that while he led in ES points, he was only one up on Yzerman.

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Old
02-13-2013, 11:38 PM
  #49
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What about him returning from cancer in mid season, immediately leading his team to a 17 game winning streak? Not only that, but he handily won the scoring title that same season with 160 points in 60 games.
Best part about this:

When he returned, he was 12 points behind Buffalo's Pat LaFontaine in the scoring race. On March 10th, he was 18 points behind Lafontaine. By March 26th it was a 5 point lead, with 10 games left each.

Lemieux won his second straight and fourth overall scoring title, finishing with 160 points (69 goals, 91 assists) in 60 games, beating out LaFontaine by 12 points, despite Lafontaine playing 24 more games than him.


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02-13-2013, 11:43 PM
  #50
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Lemieux's reliance on power play production is pretty jarring, but it doesn't change my perception of him. Special teams is integral and he was skilled enough to dominate the PP to an extent even Gretzky couldn't do. A goal is a goal. Clearly what Lemieux was doing on the PP was impossible to duplicate even for the rest of the best players, so whatever. They were hard earned.

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