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Prospect Talk PART VI

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Old
02-13-2013, 02:19 PM
  #26
PROMputt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petrocelli View Post
In a normal year, a prospect like John Persson or Kiril Kabanov would have a chance at a roster spot with a good training camp. But looking at next years training camp, without the unforeseen moves and invites, it's virtually impossible for one of our mid range prospects to steal a roster spot.

The competition for a roster spot next year is going to be crazy!!!

Moulson Tavares B. Nelson

Bailey Strome Niederreiter

Grabner Nielsen Okposo

Ullstrom Cizikas Martin

McDonald Sundstrum A. Lee

Persson Joensuu Kabanov


This is without resigning Boyes, Aucoin, Reasoner or any new veterans to replace them. There is no spot for Lee who I think will earn a spot on our top 3 lines, thus someone will be bumped or traded..... Even if they don't want to sign a veteran FA for the top 2 lines and go with youth, we still are going to have to move somebody. Next year's camp should be very interesting.... Actually, we could have some of the answers by the trade deadline. Certain players may not make it through this season, yet alone training camp next year.
you left off Nathan MacKinnon- LOL just kidding- hopefully...

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Old
02-13-2013, 02:43 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by kasper11 View Post
Out of Nelson, Strome, Nino, Lee, which one has demonstrated that they belong in the NHL? And you want to not only hand them all ice time, but move somebody to make room for Lee?

Far from being stacked at forward, I think we need 1-2 more established forwards, then let players fight it out during camp. Let Nino prove he belongs. Send Strome to the AHL for a while if you need. Start Nelson on a 3rd line. If all the young players blow you away in camp, then you can look to trade someone away. The odds of that though are very slim.
edit: NM... completely misread your post.

#DUMB

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02-13-2013, 02:47 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
I usually agree with your posts Kasper, but IMO you are off on this one.

Lee hasn't proven anything. Especially nothing more than what Nino and Nelson have proven. The only thing Lee has on these guys is age. Nelson has outproduced Lee at the college level, and now is playing in the 2nd best league in North America where he's excelling. The same goes for Nino, who again is excelling in the AHL, one of the closest leagues in the world to the NHL.

I'd even give Strome the edge, mainly due to where he was drafted, his upside, and the fact that he fits exactly what we need: a 2C with high-end offensive ability.

I do like Lee, and hope to see him as a part of this team's future, but I think the chances of him starting next year in this team's top-six is slim to none. Bottom-six, absolutely. Doesn't mean I expect him to top out at that level, but I just don't see any way in hell that this guy will get a top-six spot over any of those three guys. At least not until one of them falls on his face.
I think you misunderstood me...I only included Lee because the previous posted said that he thought Lee would force his way into a top-6 role. My point was that we shouldn't count on ANY of these guys to be big contributors next year. We don't have forward depth, we have potential forward depth.

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02-13-2013, 02:49 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by kasper11 View Post
I think you misunderstood me...I only included Lee because the previous posted said that he thought Lee would force his way into a top-6 role. My point was that we shouldn't count on ANY of these guys to be big contributors next year. We don't have forward depth, we have potential forward depth.
Yeah I tried the ninja edit but you were too quick... For some reason I thought you were vouching for playing Lee ahead of every one of our top prospects. Apparently you were the real ninja.

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02-13-2013, 04:16 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by kasper11 View Post
I think you misunderstood me...I only included Lee because the previous posted said that he thought Lee would force his way into a top-6 role. My point was that we shouldn't count on ANY of these guys to be big contributors next year. We don't have forward depth, we have potential forward depth.
And we shouldn't hold our breath that Lee will sign here either. After all, if you were on the outside looking in to the situation here and had the ability to go to any team in the league, would you really opt to come here even with the prospect of Brooklyn and franchise stability? I know some will think that he will have the opportunity to play that he might not get elsewhere but I don't think that's necessarily true. He might look at a young talent like Nino and see that Snow opted to plug the likes of McDonald and Aucoin into the lineup letting Nino go to Bridgeport.

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Old
02-13-2013, 07:09 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by MikeT98213 View Post
And we shouldn't hold our breath that Lee will sign here either. After all, if you were on the outside looking in to the situation here and had the ability to go to any team in the league, would you really opt to come here even with the prospect of Brooklyn and franchise stability? I know some will think that he will have the opportunity to play that he might not get elsewhere but I don't think that's necessarily true. He might look at a young talent like Nino and see that Snow opted to plug the likes of McDonald and Aucoin into the lineup letting Nino go to Bridgeport.
My guess is after playing and dominating against Nino, Strome & Kabby in the prospects game almost two years ago they are the least of his concerns.....

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Old
02-13-2013, 08:08 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by blinkman360 View Post
.....Nelson has outproduced Lee at the college level....

Huh? What did I miss. I count:

36 Goals and 68 Points for Brock Nelson in 84 games as a freshman and Soph in NCAA

41 Goals and 78 Points for Anders Lee in 84 games in NCAA as a Fresh and Soph.

I know Lee played a season on USHL and was a year older, It still doesn't reverse or change the fact that Lee had more goals, assists, and points than Nelson in their first two years of college.

Comparing the two is kind of silly anyway since Lee is much bigger and Stronger and plays a Power forward role and Nelson, tho 6'4", is slight and plays more of a finesse game, albeit using his length and reach to his advantage.

My only point is that Lee should not be dismissed as an NHL possibility next season (if signed). I can name 100 NCAA players that came out of school at age 23 and went straight to the NHL, and not many of them had the stats and body-type of Lee.

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Old
02-13-2013, 08:22 PM
  #33
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As of Today: Which prospect(s), it doesn't matter where they are current playing can step in TOMORROW and give us something? Or is there not any prospect at all at the current moment. Goalies included?

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Old
02-13-2013, 08:31 PM
  #34
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Wednesday

Guelph 2, Owen Sound 0-Pedan, even.
Barrie 10, Ottawa 1-Theoret, 1 goal (22), 1 assist, + 3.
Niagara 6, Erie 3-Strome, 2 goals (30,31), 1 assist, + 2, Graham, even, Pelech, -1.
Spokane 4, Calgary 3-Kichton, 1 goal (18), even.


Last edited by Degeneration Rex: 02-14-2013 at 02:07 AM.
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Old
02-13-2013, 08:43 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Degeneration Rex View Post
Wednesday

Guelph 2, Owen Sound 0-Pedan, even.
Barrie 10, Ottawa 1-Theoret, 1 goal (22), 1 assist, + 3.
Niagara 6, Erie 3-Strome, 2 goals (30,31), 1 assist, + 2, Graham, even, Pelech, -1.
Calgary vs Spokane, later.
Nice, Strome with a big game.

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Old
02-13-2013, 08:52 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InformTheMasses View Post
Huh? What did I miss. I count:

36 Goals and 68 Points for Brock Nelson in 84 games as a freshman and Soph in NCAA

41 Goals and 78 Points for Anders Lee in 84 games in NCAA as a Fresh and Soph.

I know Lee played a season on USHL and was a year older, It still doesn't reverse or change the fact that Lee had more goals, assists, and points than Nelson in their first two years of college.

Comparing the two is kind of silly anyway since Lee is much bigger and Stronger and plays a Power forward role and Nelson, tho 6'4", is slight and plays more of a finesse game, albeit using his length and reach to his advantage.

My only point is that Lee should not be dismissed as an NHL possibility next season (if signed). I can name 100 NCAA players that came out of school at age 23 and went straight to the NHL, and not many of them had the stats and body-type of Lee.
Nelson > Lee

Lee's man strength advantage disappears in the AHL, and even moreso in the NHL...not that Anders will be pushed around, but he just won't have as much time and space because the opposition on average will be bigger, stronger, and tougher than in the NCAA. His skating will be more of an issue in both those leagues too...Lee produces primarily from 5-10 feet in front of the net...

Nelson doesn't just live off his size, though he has that too. Nelson's offensive and defensive awareness is higher...passing and set-up ability better...

Now I love Lee, but he's not in the same class as Nelson imo

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Old
02-14-2013, 05:17 AM
  #37
InformTheMasses
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Degeneration Rex View Post
Wednesday

Guelph 2, Owen Sound 0-Pedan, even.
Barrie 10, Ottawa 1-Theoret, 1 goal (22), 1 assist, + 3.
Niagara 6, Erie 3-Strome, 2 goals (30,31), 1 assist, + 2, Graham, even, Pelech, -1.
Spokane 4, Calgary 3-Kichton, 1 goal (18), even.
I'll have these highlights up at some point today. I flipped back and forth between the Niagra game and the Barrie beat down of Ottawa ast night, fell asleep early.

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Old
02-14-2013, 07:29 AM
  #38
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Friday night College Hockey, CBS Sports, 7:30 PM
Notre Dame (Lee, Russo) at Miami (Ohio).

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Old
02-14-2013, 08:24 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PWJunior View Post
Nice, Strome with a big game.
Seeing Strome continue to light it up makes me feel so much better about this whole thing going on with the big club. It's one thing if the team is struggling, it is another when your top prospects are struggling as well.

Looks like Strome has taken the bull by the horns and is going to be a very good player for us in the near future.

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Old
02-14-2013, 08:36 AM
  #40
InformTheMasses
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Originally Posted by bluechipbonzo View Post
Nelson > Lee

Lee's man strength advantage disappears in the AHL, and even moreso in the NHL...not that Anders will be pushed around, but he just won't have as much time and space because the opposition on average will be bigger, stronger, and tougher than in the NCAA. His skating will be more of an issue in both those leagues too...Lee produces primarily from 5-10 feet in front of the net...

Nelson doesn't just live off his size, though he has that too. Nelson's offensive and defensive awareness is higher...passing and set-up ability better...

Now I love Lee, but he's not in the same class as Nelson imo
I'm not really debating Lee vs Nelson. My posts have been more along the lines of 'no roster spots are guaranteed to any prospects at this point, nor will they be until the completion of camp next year. To that point, my caution to the board was to simply not just assume Nelson makes the team over and/or in place of Lee.

As for me thinking aloud about a potential Lee-Tavares-Strome line? I was simply looking at player attributes and skill sets and trying to match them as best as possible according to our organizational depth chart. It wasn't an indictment on Nelson, as I said, I wasn't ranking talent.

Nelson is more comparable to Strome than he is Lee anyway. Lee is a power forward the other 2 are not. Nelson and Strome have very similar games and are both aprox 190 lbs. Nelson is just taller. Other than that they are pretty much the same player. Strome is more explosive and Nelson has outstanding reach/range. There are other subtle differences but they are very compatible. So much so that if Nelson can prove that he can anchor a productive 2nd line in the NHL then it makes sense to potentially try Strome on Tavares wing. And if that happens I want, no Demand a power forward on their line. Ergo Lee the best power foward in the organization.

Now you have my full rationale.

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Old
02-14-2013, 08:49 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by MikeT98213 View Post
And we shouldn't hold our breath that Lee will sign here either. After all, if you were on the outside looking in to the situation here and had the ability to go to any team in the league, would you really opt to come here even with the prospect of Brooklyn and franchise stability? I know some will think that he will have the opportunity to play that he might not get elsewhere but I don't think that's necessarily true. He might look at a young talent like Nino and see that Snow opted to plug the likes of McDonald and Aucoin into the lineup letting Nino go to Bridgeport.
The advantages for the Isles are:

1) They can sign him after his college season is up and burn a year of his ELC. This is a big deal. The ELC comes with a max salary and must be a 2-way deal. For a player aged 22-23, it must be a 2-year deal. This means he can sign with the Isles and be an RFA after next year. If he plays well next year, he could command a 1-year deal and a bigger salary. Any other team he signs with, he doesn't become an RFA for another year (of course, that depends on the Isles offering him a deal before the end of the NHL season).

2) The Isles are building a young team, and he will have the opportunity to earn a spot. Yes, the Isles have some good prospects. But they don't have a ton of established forwards that are basically guaranteed ice time.

Not saying it is a sure thing he will sign here, but there are definitely reasons to do so.

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Old
02-14-2013, 09:53 AM
  #42
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I like the prospect pool, don't take this the wrong way, but I think the optimism around Anders Lee is misguided. He's just not that good. He's a very good NCAA player, no doubt about it. He goes to the net well, plays a simple NHL-style game, he should translate that to NHL hockey fairly easily.

But I think it'll be a 4th line player, possibly 3rd line if we're lucky.

I don't think Lee will be any better than Matt Martin (who I love as a player, by the way). Martin is JUST ONE YEAR OLDER than Lee. Josh Bailey (the "bust" as many have said) is the same age as Anders Lee.

Would I take another Matt Martin on the team? ABSOLUTELY. That part of what Lee might bring is something I'm excited about. But I seriously don't expect anything more. Anything can happen. Tyler Bozak was a great NCAA player, he's a #1 C today and he's become a pretty good hockey player but even he's not a top six player on a good team.
----
On Kabanov: we must get away from the phenom that he was at 16-17...because he's not a phenom at all. Scott99 is absolutely right, he's done NOTHING to suggest he can be a top six player on the NYI anytime soon. That said, he played very well in the Memorial Cup (though not the best player on his team, maybe the 3rd - 4th best forward from my recollection) and he's looked pretty good in the few AHL games I saw him play. But hardly a player who's knocking on the door for an NHL job, even on the terrible NYI roster.

Ullstrom and Cizikas are NHL players - no doubt about it. They can play a bottom six role very effectively and will only get better (I expect Cizikas will have the better and longer career, for what it's worth).

Kabanov is the same age as Nelson (1yr older), Sundstrom, Persson and Niederreiter (leaving unsigned Lee and Ryan Strome aside for the moment) and I'd say all four of those have shown more NHL-ready games than Kabanov, all can play offensively, have better size/strength, play NHL-style games and have shown MORE than KK has thus far in his early career.

NOBODY'S giving up on the kid. He's matured significantly since all the pre-draft fiasco. His game is much better, he shows good board work, good passer, he's got hockey sense and puck skills. He definitely has NHL potential and maybe in a year or two, he might become a player who has a chance to make the NHL. But there's nothing "wow" in his game to suggest he's anywhere close to making the NYI and contributing in a significant way. Angelo Esposito was a teen phenom at one time too.

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Old
02-14-2013, 10:00 AM
  #43
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I agree with Redbull. Besides, I doubt there will be more than 2 spots up for grabs at forward next year for 1 C and 1 W. The prohibitive favorites are Nelson and Niederreiter. What happens another year down the line with Lee/Kabanov, etc. is something I'm not particularly worried about.

Cheers,

Dan-o

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Old
02-14-2013, 10:42 AM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Degeneration Rex View Post
Wednesday

Guelph 2, Owen Sound 0-Pedan, even.
Barrie 10, Ottawa 1-Theoret, 1 goal (22), 1 assist, + 3.
Niagara 6, Erie 3-Strome, 2 goals (30,31), 1 assist, + 2, Graham, even, Pelech, -1.
Spokane 4, Calgary 3-Kichton, 1 goal (18), even.
Brenden Kichton PP Goal:




Mitch Theoret Assist:

Mitch Theoret Goal:

Ryan Strome Goal #1

Ryan Strome Assist:

Ryan Strome Goal #2


Last edited by InformTheMasses: 02-14-2013 at 11:24 AM.
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Old
02-14-2013, 11:46 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by InformTheMasses View Post
Huh? What did I miss. I count:

36 Goals and 68 Points for Brock Nelson in 84 games as a freshman and Soph in NCAA

41 Goals and 78 Points for Anders Lee in 84 games in NCAA as a Fresh and Soph.

I know Lee played a season on USHL and was a year older, It still doesn't reverse or change the fact that Lee had more goals, assists, and points than Nelson in their first two years of college.

Comparing the two is kind of silly anyway since Lee is much bigger and Stronger and plays a Power forward role and Nelson, tho 6'4", is slight and plays more of a finesse game, albeit using his length and reach to his advantage.

My only point is that Lee should not be dismissed as an NHL possibility next season (if signed). I can name 100 NCAA players that came out of school at age 23 and went straight to the NHL, and not many of them had the stats and body-type of Lee.
I was basing most of my opinion on the fact that Nelson is a full 15 months younger than Lee, yet they both played their freshman season at the same time. Nelson's 20 year old season vs Lee's 20 year old season, Nelson outscored him by 3 points(4 goals) in 2 less games. If you want to go by sophomore seasons alone(even though again, Lee was 15 months older), Nelson outproduced him by a good amount as well.

I understand that Lee brings a different element to the game, but as far as upside goes they are just on two different levels.

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Old
02-14-2013, 12:07 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by kasper11 View Post
The advantages for the Isles are:

1) They can sign him after his college season is up and burn a year of his ELC. This is a big deal. The ELC comes with a max salary and must be a 2-way deal. For a player aged 22-23, it must be a 2-year deal. This means he can sign with the Isles and be an RFA after next year. If he plays well next year, he could command a 1-year deal and a bigger salary. Any other team he signs with, he doesn't become an RFA for another year (of course, that depends on the Isles offering him a deal before the end of the NHL season).

2) The Isles are building a young team, and he will have the opportunity to earn a spot. Yes, the Isles have some good prospects. But they don't have a ton of established forwards that are basically guaranteed ice time.

Not saying it is a sure thing he will sign here, but there are definitely reasons to do so.
The key word here is "building." Why not go to a good, young team that is already highly competitive like the Blues where they have excellent young talent, are already a playoff team and have a proven record of providing opportunity for young talent?

Does a young free agent really want to play for Jack Capuano or on a team without a top goaltender or the semblance of NHL calibre defenseman, save for Hamonic?

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02-14-2013, 12:24 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InformTheMasses View Post
Brenden Kichton PP Goal:




Mitch Theoret Assist:

Mitch Theoret Goal:

Ryan Strome Goal #1

Ryan Strome Assist:

Ryan Strome Goal #2
Wow, sweet goals by Strome, both show great hands and offensive instincts.

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Old
02-14-2013, 12:26 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by MikeT98213 View Post
The key word here is "building." Why not go to a good, young team that is already highly competitive like the Blues where they have excellent young talent, are already a playoff team and have a proven record of providing opportunity for young talent?

Does a young free agent really want to play for Jack Capuano or on a team without a top goaltender or the semblance of NHL calibre defenseman, save for Hamonic?
He may not, but looking at the Blues, they have a lot of young, skilled forwards already in the NHL (Oshie, Perron, Backes, Tarasenko, Stewart, Berglund, Schwarz). The Islanders may not give you as good of a chance to win, but there may be a better chance to play in the NHL next year. Justin Schultz chose the Oilers after 3 straight dead last finishes because of the combination of a good young core and an opportunity for immediate playing time. Lee might choose the Isles for the same reason, especially combined with the opportunity to burn off a year of his ELC.

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02-14-2013, 12:55 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by redbull View Post
On Kabanov: we must get away from the phenom that he was at 16-17...because he's not a phenom at all. Scott99 is absolutely right, he's done NOTHING to suggest he can be a top six player on the NYI anytime soon. That said, he played very well in the Memorial Cup (though not the best player on his team, maybe the 3rd - 4th best forward from my recollection) and he's looked pretty good in the few AHL games I saw him play. But hardly a player who's knocking on the door for an NHL job, even on the terrible NYI roster.
Kabanov's an odd case in that he impressed me with his play at the Memorial Cup, but for almost completely opposite reasons than his original hype.

I didn't see the high end skill, the elite offensive ability, the hands that would produce top line numbers at the NHL level, that he was supposed to have based on his 16 year old hype. Instead, I liked his work ethic, his battle level along the boards, and his ability to make plays based on his board work.

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02-14-2013, 12:56 PM
  #50
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Todays game Kärpät vs Ässät (1-3) Ville Pokka didn`t get any points and get -1. Icetime was 22:37 (2nd) and he get 3 shots. Ässät make two goals on 0:17 and 0:58 on a first period. Terrible mistakes on a kärpät`s defence. Ville was again one of the surest player on kärpät. Saturday kärpät has homegame against Ilves.

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