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Where will the Sedins rank among all-time Swedish players?

View Poll Results: Where will the Sedins finish among Swedish Forwards?
#1/#2 2 0.99%
#2/#3 3 1.49%
Both Top 5 58 28.71%
Both Top 10 116 57.43%
Not Top 10 23 11.39%
Voters: 202. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-12-2013, 10:14 PM
  #76
lawrence
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top ten behind Sundin, Forberg Lidstrom.

Top 5 because they are the only brothers in hockey history to win the art ross trophy's.

Henrik Sedin's hockey iq, and play making smarts makes him one of the greatest Swedish players of all time, and when he is done with hockey, I will say one of the best Vancouver Canucks of all time behind the one and only Pavel Bure.

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Old
02-12-2013, 11:52 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizeman View Post
I cannot tell you how weak your post is. You make no point whatsoever. Zero.

Yeah, you ARE comparing them 2 to 1. They havent played apart for more than what? 40 games combined in their whole careers. There whole careers are over 95% joint effort.

You CANT compare them separately. Compared to WHAT? They rarely played at any level at all anywhere by themselves. There is no way to compare them to the greats playing individually. 40 games as a body of work to compare them to? There efforts in those 40 games.

Thus the special category.

Lol twins being the same as Kurri and Gretzky . They played their whole careers together too? Grew up together came out of the same womb too?

Didnt know Gretzky and Kurri were Swedish.

I just cant TAKE IT anymore. Im sorry. Im not trying to be rude, but if you are going ot reply to my posts, then actually make some logical points

Do everyone a favor. Stop replying to my posts. It reads like a kid trying to show his big brother how 'tough' he is and his logic is 5 steps behind .
Do I know you?

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Old
02-13-2013, 12:07 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
For sure it would. That's why one of the reasons Henri Richard gets rated a lot higher by some people than he should. He won eleven cupzz!!!!!

It is dumb because the Stanley Cup is a team award.

The only series I can think of where the Sedins were the best players, was the San Jose series in 2011.
Fully agree here, too many people ahve a hard time separating teams from individual players when it comes to playoffs.

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Old
02-13-2013, 12:14 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Uncle Howie View Post
Call me crazy, but I am more curious/value the Swedish poster opinions on this more than most.

My opinion, for sure top 10... but I value post season/championships so I would have Forsberg (#2), Zetterberg (#4) ahead... as well as Salming(#3) (trailblazers are huge). Lidstrom is arguably #1 Swedish player so there is 4 there... so I went top 10.

I put Sedins (5,6) ahead of Sundin (7) as well as Alfredsson(8) due to the individual trophies Sedins have won.

Thinking though Lundqvist (9) with another Vezina + Cup could easily slide into top 5 with his career.

Also believe Karlsson will make things interesting... may not crack top 5, but him and Lundqvist will make it interesting.

My opinion though is of North American variety and I am sure a Swede would see it differently, I am looking at more NHL impact.
Sundin and Alfie have huge resumes and the Sedins weren't even PPG guys for as long as either guy. It's your opinion but what if AV or Sid won the Hart when Hank did and sid was healthy in 11 would the lack of hardware but same seasons keep them about Sundin and Alfie?

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Old
02-13-2013, 12:16 AM
  #80
ed bruin
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serious question but why are the Sedins always lumped in together? why cant say Daniel be 8 and Henrik be 6 or something like that?

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02-13-2013, 12:45 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Sundin and Alfie have huge resumes and the Sedins weren't even PPG guys for as long as either guy. It's your opinion but what if AV or Sid won the Hart when Hank did and sid was healthy in 11 would the lack of hardware but same seasons keep them about Sundin and Alfie?
What if Alfredsson dominated instead of shooting pucks at Niedermayer in the finals. What if.

Crosby played 81 games that year, Henrik beat him.

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02-13-2013, 12:47 AM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ed bruin View Post
serious question but why are the Sedins always lumped in together? why cant say Daniel be 8 and Henrik be 6 or something like that?
I could see that since I think Henrik's Art Ross/Hart was a more impressive season that Daniel's.

Winger vs Center as well.

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Old
02-13-2013, 12:49 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by serge2k View Post
What if Alfredsson dominated instead of shooting pucks at Niedermayer in the finals. What if.

Crosby played 81 games that year, Henrik beat him.
Alfredsson did dominate.

Alfredsson in his Cup run: 20GP, 15 goals
Sedins in their Cup run (combined): 50GP, 12G goals

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Old
02-13-2013, 12:54 AM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ed bruin View Post
serious question but why are the Sedins always lumped in together? why cant say Daniel be 8 and Henrik be 6 or something like that?
people can't tell them apart, they always get lumped together by ignorant hockey fans

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02-13-2013, 12:57 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Sundin and Alfie have huge resumes and the Sedins weren't even PPG guys for as long as either guy. It's your opinion but what if AV or Sid won the Hart when Hank did and sid was healthy in 11 would the lack of hardware but same seasons keep them about Sundin and Alfie?
What if Malkin got 250 points in 2011, what if Thornton got 100 + assists?

You can't just discredit individual awards with "what ifs"

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02-13-2013, 01:01 AM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milan the Great View Post
Alfredsson did dominate.

Alfredsson in his Cup run: 20GP, 15 goals
Sedins in their Cup run (combined): 50GP, 12G goals
Alfredsson had 14 goals.

You are also comparing a primary goal scorer to a primary passer and a balanced shooter/passer in Daniel.

Henrik - 22 points
Alfie - 22 points
Daniel - 20 points

Hard to see too much of a difference.

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Old
02-13-2013, 02:12 AM
  #87
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I'd rate them 5-7. After lidstrom.forsberg.Alfi.sundin and salming
side note+.Looks Alfi might play in the 2014 Sochi Olympics . Most likely is captain.

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Old
02-13-2013, 09:59 AM
  #88
Evil Edler
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Its funny because the only opinions that matter here are the actual Swedish posters.

FYI Forsberg is their Gretzky and putting him at #2 is comical.

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Old
02-13-2013, 10:13 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Steve Bennett View Post
Did you forget the

I can't tell if you're serious??
Why on earth did you bold Lidstrom's name there?

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Old
02-13-2013, 10:15 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Godless Servant View Post
Its funny because the only opinions that matter here are the actual Swedish posters.
Nonsense. If anything many of their opinions should be taken with a grain of salt (well, everyone's personal opinion should be, of course) because they put an inordinate amount of attention on relatively few games (international tournaments) rather than the bulk of these players' careers (the NHL).

Quote:
FYI Forsberg is their Gretzky and putting him at #2 is comical.
Nicklas Lidstrom had a significantly better career than Peter Forsberg, there's nothing comical about it.

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Old
02-13-2013, 11:28 AM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
Nonsense. If anything many of their opinions should be taken with a grain of salt (well, everyone's personal opinion should be, of course) because they put an inordinate amount of attention on relatively few games (international tournaments) rather than the bulk of these players' careers (the NHL).
Or it might be that your perspective is subjective too, in favour of NHL?

To be a bit provocative, but basically correct, I would say that taking importance into account the most NHL games outside of playoffs are standard run-of-the-mill games without much importance (yay for Presidents trophy a couple of years in a row).

Games which matters matters and among them are medal games in the Olympics and WC important.

And when it comes to taking Swedish opinions with a grain of salt I do not agree either. Basic source criticism states that bias should be searched for, yes (the three other foundations of source criticism are not equally relevant here). In this case there is no bias as Swedes evaluate Swedish players and them only. Further the Swedes which frequent hfboards are beyond doubt more interested in the NHL than the average Swedish hockey fan, one could venture to say that they in general are genuinely interested in the NHL. There is no reason to think that they would downplay NHL, at least not in any other way than I did in the beginning of this post.

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Old
02-13-2013, 12:49 PM
  #92
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Rounding out the top 10. I direct those interested in this topic to the History of Hockey forum, a Swedish pub listed their all-time Top 10 Swedish hockeyers and not sure the Sedins even figured on it (think it was Hockeyespressen).

HOH board came up with this:

1. Nicklas Lidstrom - 73.68%
2. Peter Forsberg - 73.08%
3. Borje Salming - 61.90%
4. Mats Sundin - 61.02%
5. Sven Tumba - 45.45%
6. Henrik Lundqvist - 40.35%
7. Daniel Alfredsson - 57.69%
8. Henrik Zetterberg - 43.18%
9. Henrik Sedin - 52.78%
10. Markus Naslund - 31.43%
11. Daniel Sedin - 43.90%
12. Lennart Svedberg - 25.00%
13. Mats Naslund - 29.27%
14. Hakan Loob - 43.48%
15. Ulf Samuelsson - 43.33%
16. Kent Nilsson - 70.00%
17. Lars-Erik Sjoberg - 18.52%
18. Anders Hedberg - 34.29%
19. Ulf Nilsson - 40.74%

Would be hard to place the Sedins above giants like Sundin, Forsberg, Salming, Lidstrom et al. Could probably put hem in the 8-15 spot, at leat one of them, assuming you aren't Voltroning them into one entity.

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Old
02-13-2013, 06:38 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
Nonsense. If anything many of their opinions should be taken with a grain of salt (well, everyone's personal opinion should be, of course) because they put an inordinate amount of attention on relatively few games (international tournaments) rather than the bulk of these players' careers (the NHL).



Nicklas Lidstrom had a significantly better career than Peter Forsberg, there's nothing comical about it.
Firstly I'm not American and though I might have an opinion on the top 10 U.S.A. born players of all time, my opinion in the end doesn't matter because it's about what the American people feel is their best. Only an American would have the audacity to determine what factors another country should consider when weighing their all time home grown greats.

2nd No one is saying Lidstrom isn't great but to the Swedish hockey fans Forsberg is god. I don't care who won more Stanley Cups or personal trophies, it's about who the Swede's love more and though I can't speak for them, I have read numerous things pointing out how ridiculously adored Forsberg is.

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02-13-2013, 09:20 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by serge2k View Post
What if Alfredsson dominated instead of shooting pucks at Niedermayer in the finals. What if.

Crosby played 81 games that year, Henrik beat him.
My headcold got in the way of 2011, the year Daniel led the nHL in scoring, sid surely would have had he played all season.

Even in 10 when Hank won there was a huge promotional push of anti-west backlash by the Canucks to promote Hank for the Hart, both AO and Sid were more than worthy of winning it as well.

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02-13-2013, 09:52 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
My headcold got in the way of 2011, the year Daniel led the nHL in scoring, sid surely would have had he played all season.

Even in 10 when Hank won there was a huge promotional push of anti-west backlash by the Canucks to promote Hank for the Hart, both AO and Sid were more than worthy of winning it as well.
Nah, henrik was pretty ridiculous that season, his ES points were pretty amazing. 21 point (IIRC) seperation from 2nd place in the west. Daniel missed a good chunk of time too.

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02-13-2013, 11:08 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Godless Servant View Post
Firstly I'm not American and though I might have an opinion on the top 10 U.S.A. born players of all time, my opinion in the end doesn't matter because it's about what the American people feel is their best. Only an American would have the audacity to determine what factors another country should consider when weighing their all time home grown greats.

2nd No one is saying Lidstrom isn't great but to the Swedish hockey fans Forsberg is god. I don't care who won more Stanley Cups or personal trophies, it's about who the Swede's love more and though I can't speak for them, I have read numerous things pointing out how ridiculously adored Forsberg is.
Most beloved/adored is not the same as best.

To use an example I'm familiar with, I'm pretty sure if you did a poll of Canucks fans asking them who their favourite all-time player was, Linden would win by a country mile. Yet those same fans would probably agree that the Sedins and Bure were better hockey players than #16.

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Old
02-14-2013, 03:55 AM
  #97
Evil Edler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meteor View Post
Most beloved/adored is not the same as best.

To use an example I'm familiar with, I'm pretty sure if you did a poll of Canucks fans asking them who their favourite all-time player was, Linden would win by a country mile. Yet those same fans would probably agree that the Sedins and Bure were better hockey players than #16.
Of course it isn't but a healthy Forsberg was a monster, I'm sure that coupled with the adoration is what puts him over the top in most people's eyes but I can already see this argument will run in circles, so I'm going to walk away from it.

Regardless as an outsider I voted top 5.

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Old
02-15-2013, 01:00 AM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by live playoff hockey View Post
What if Malkin got 250 points in 2011, what if Thornton got 100 + assists?

You can't just discredit individual awards with "what ifs"
You are right with Daniel winning the art Ross in 11 we should only judge players by games played but in 10 when Hank won the Hart, the 2 other guys would have won it most years.

My point is that context matters.

The subjective nature and changing criteria from year to year make the Hart trophy being made such a big deal is overblown, especially when in that given year it easily could have went to 3 guys and looking at voting patterns in the last 30 years it normally would have gone to either AO or Sid in 10.

Just for the record here is how the voting went and we have no idea if voters took into account Hank's 5-5 play or any advanced stats, it's a closed system of voting

1 Sedin Henrik VAN 894 46 34 27 19 4
2 Ovechkin Alex WAS 834 40 35 22 22 13
3 Crosby Sidney PIT 729 20 35 38 29 7


People really need to go back and look at Bobby Clarke's 3 Harts and the nature of the voting in that time period to see how weak it is to make any argument on how a guy has a Hart or not.


Last edited by Hardyvan123: 02-15-2013 at 01:10 AM.
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Old
02-15-2013, 01:19 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
You are right with Daniel winning the art Ross in 11 we should only judge players by games played but in 10 when Hank won the Hart, the 2 other guys would have won it most years.

My point is that context matters.

The subjective nature and changing criteria from year to year make the Hart trophy being made such a big deal is overblown, especially when in that given year it easily could have went to 3 guys and looking at voting patterns in the last 30 years it normally would have gone to either AO or Sid in 10.

Just for the record here is how the voting went and we have no idea if voters took into account Hank's 5-5 play or any advanced stats, it's a closed system of voting

1 Sedin Henrik VAN 894 46 34 27 19 4
2 Ovechkin Alex WAS 834 40 35 22 22 13
3 Crosby Sidney PIT 729 20 35 38 29 7


People really need to go back and look at Bobby Clarke's 3 Harts and the nature of the voting in that time period to see how weak it is to make any argument on how a guy has a Hart or not.
If they took ES scoring into account then Henrik would've won by a wider margin. He had 10 and 11 points up on Ovechkin and Crosby, respectively. As a matter of fact, Henrik was tied for #19 in PPP scoring.

The notion that Henrik fed off the Power Play on his way to the Hart is flat out fictitious. And he didn't even figure in the top 30 for offensive zone starts.

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Old
02-15-2013, 06:19 AM
  #100
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Top 10.

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