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Subban's play since coming back

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02-13-2013, 11:23 PM
  #226
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
As in who would be a more effective player right now? That's a good question, I think I go PK with that one because I'm not sure if Jones is thick enough to be physically dominant. But I'd trade Pk for him in a heartbeat. He will be better than Pk by his second season at the latest imo.
You could very well be right. I'm all for trading vets for elite prospects btw.

But PK is a 23 year old stud not a 34 year old vet. The potential beneficial difference between Jones and Subban doesn't warrant the risk in my opinion. I believe in calculated risks designed to maximize diminishing assets but that's not the case here. You'd be risking a stud blueliner (and he is a stud blueliner already) for a guy who hasn't played an NHL game.

I love the idea of trading for Jones. I love the idea of trading for top picks. But not with 23 year old proven studs who we're going to build our blueline around. That's actually not a good risk to take.

Dude, you've actually got me to say that I wouldn't trade for a 1st overall pick. That's not easy for folks to do.

Congratulations.
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Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
That's fine. I do. 6'6" that can skate, has skill, plays tough and has great hockey sense? Come on.
I didn't say he sucked.

Over PK though? No.

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02-13-2013, 11:32 PM
  #227
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You could very well be right. I'm all for trading vets for elite prospects btw.

But PK is a 23 year old stud not a 34 year old vet. The potential beneficial difference between Jones and Subban doesn't warrant the risk in my opinion. I believe in calculated risks designed to maximize diminishing assets but that's not the case here. You'd be risking a stud blueliner (and he is a stud blueliner already) for a guy who hasn't played an NHL game.

I love the idea of trading for Jones. I love the idea of trading for top picks. But not with 23 year old proven studs who we're going to build our blueline around. That's actually not a good risk to take.

Dude, you've actually got me to say that I wouldn't trade for a 1st overall pick. That's not easy for folks to do.

Congratulations.

I didn't say he sucked.

Over PK though? No.
If Subban actually lacked hockey sense and that held back his effectiveness I might agree with him.


But since Subban is tremendously effective at basically everything you can reasonably ask a defenseman to do then its not.

Hedman deserves more respect than he gets though. I have him better than the likes of Myers and Carlson, perhaps better than McDonagh. People have no idea how much his supposed bad results last year was due to the crazy degree that Tampa Bay leaned on him last year. He and OEL should be in the same conversation as Subban, but Subban is probably better. Principly because neither have Subban's ridiculous versatility.

The only young guys Subban should be considered behind are Doughty, Pietroangelo and Karlsson and Subban is very closely comparable to Doughty in effectiveness. And those aren't just the best young defensemen in the league, they are a group of some the very best defensemen period. The list of guys over 25 better than them is very small.

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02-13-2013, 11:40 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by Talks to Goalposts View Post
If Subban actually lacked hockey sense and that held back his effectiveness I might agree with him.


But since Subban is tremendously effective at basically everything you can reasonably ask a defenseman to do then its not.

Hedman deserves more respect than he gets though. I have him better than the likes of Myers and Carlson, perhaps better than McDonagh. People have no idea how much his supposed bad results last year was due to the crazy degree that Tampa Bay leaned on him last year. He and OEL should be in the same conversation as Subban, but Subban is probably better. Principly because neither have Subban's ridiculous versatility.

The only young guys Subban should be considered behind are Doughty, Pietroangelo and Karlsson and Subban is very closely comparable to Doughty in effectiveness. And those aren't just the best young defensemen in the league, they are a group of some the very best defensemen period. The list of guys over 25 better than them is very small.
It won't surprise me if Subban wins a Norris at some point. He just continues to improve. And you're right about his versatility, he can do it all. And I love his skating.

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02-13-2013, 11:52 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
You could very well be right. I'm all for trading vets for elite prospects btw.

But PK is a 23 year old stud not a 34 year old vet. The potential beneficial difference between Jones and Subban doesn't warrant the risk in my opinion. I believe in calculated risks designed to maximize diminishing assets but that's not the case here. You'd be risking a stud blueliner (and he is a stud blueliner already) for a guy who hasn't played an NHL game.

I love the idea of trading for Jones. I love the idea of trading for top picks. But not with 23 year old proven studs who we're going to build our blueline around. That's actually not a good risk to take.

Dude, you've actually got me to say that I wouldn't trade for a 1st overall pick. That's not easy for folks to do.

Congratulations.

I didn't say he sucked.

Over PK though? No.
Just ask yourself if we'd be able to get the first overall pick this year for Pk Subban? Imo, there isn't a team in the league that would take Pk over that pick, including us.

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02-14-2013, 12:01 AM
  #230
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PK has great assets but I'm afraid the halo painted around his head is a bit larger than his hat size.

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Old
02-14-2013, 12:04 AM
  #231
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Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
Just ask yourself if we'd be able to get the first overall pick this year for Pk Subban? Imo, there isn't a team in the league that would take Pk over that pick, including us.
I don't know if the Jackets would make that trade. I suspect they wouldn't. For them, they are starting over with a new GM and the idea of dealing away a potential superstar doesn't make sense.... better to just build via the draft.

I don't think Montreal would deal PK either though. Why take that risk? The guy is 23 and is showing continuous improvement. We're already down the path with him and Price. It doesn't make sense to take that kind of risk.

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02-14-2013, 12:35 AM
  #232
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I don't know if the Jackets would make that trade. I suspect they wouldn't. For them, they are starting over with a new GM and the idea of dealing away a potential superstar doesn't make sense.... better to just build via the draft.

I don't think Montreal would deal PK either though. Why take that risk? The guy is 23 and is showing continuous improvement. We're already down the path with him and Price. It doesn't make sense to take that kind of risk.
You're probably getting a superstar with that 1st pick. At the very worst, you're getting a Subban.

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02-14-2013, 01:08 AM
  #233
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If we combine Markov (vision, intelligence, precise shot) and Subban (insane raw skills, hard shot) into one D, we have Bobby Orr.


Just ignore the date...

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02-14-2013, 05:10 AM
  #234
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Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
As in who would be a more effective player right now? That's a good question, I think I go PK with that one because I'm not sure if Jones is thick enough to be physically dominant. But I'd trade Pk for him in a heartbeat. He will be better than Pk by his second season at the latest imo.



That's fine. I do. 6'6" that can skate, has skill, plays tough and has great hockey sense? Come on.
I think Subban is a little better now and will be a lot better down the road. We can find size elsewhere, Tinordi for example....

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02-14-2013, 05:49 AM
  #235
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So, who do you think is better at the moment, Subban or Karlsson?

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Old
02-14-2013, 06:21 AM
  #236
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So, who do you think is better at the moment, Subban or Karlsson?
Karlsson. The fact he got injured doesn't change anything.

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02-14-2013, 06:26 AM
  #237
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Karlsson. The fact he got injured doesn't change anything.
So even injured with a cut tendon, you think Karlsson would play better than Subban on the ice tonight?

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02-14-2013, 06:28 AM
  #238
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Too lazy...undisciplined...unwilling to play a team game...locker-room cancer? Would you like me to go on? I've got sources to back me up...

lol
I found the white ''lol'' bottom left corner.

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02-14-2013, 06:38 AM
  #239
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Is Subban the best player out of the 2007 draft?

Who would you most want on your team?

Kane
Couture
McDonagh
Shattenkirk
Subban

It's not typical that a 2nd rounder can be considered the best player of his draft. The other example I can think of is Shea Weber, 2nd rounder in 2003, also Chara was drafted 56th overall (then 3rd round) in 1996, and Lidstrom was drafted 53rd overall (then 3rd round) in 1989.

Benn, Turris, JVR, Alzner, Pacioretty are not in the conversation imo.

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02-14-2013, 07:15 AM
  #240
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subban still takes bad penalties.

Outside of bad penalties, the odd mistake, he has played some of his best hockey. the pk needs pk..and gill.

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02-14-2013, 07:20 AM
  #241
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Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
I wouldn't call it "years of scouting", because I am just a fan, but I have watched most of these players play for at least a couple years. So, what am I basing it on? My watching them play.

Hey if you are of the opinion that Pk and OEL are equal hockey players, then I respect that. I disagree, but I respect that. I think OEL will be consistently fighting for Norris trophies.



They're both already really good players in the league at 19. They are blue chippers and both possess more ability than PK.

I know what you're getting at but hell yes I would take Jones over Pk as well. All I'm saying is that if I had to make a group of the "elite 23 and under dmen", PK at best gets an honorable mention.



We are a better team with Hedman instead of Subban. JMO.
How many games have you watched those guys play in?
You are also admitting that your evaluation is highly subjective as you are evaluating those players based on the few times you've seen them play and I'm guessing that by "seeing" you mean through your television, where cameras follow the puck only.

Meanwhile, advanced stats that have proven to be a solid measuring stick, at least more so than a subjective observation through tv, are saying you are wrong.

Not sure how the two young prospects possess more abilities than PK. I'm gonna have to disagree there.
In any event, you cannot say that they are better than PK today, you just can't.

I wouldn't take Jones over PK. He is a junior player that hasn't even been drafted. Meanwhile PK has already proven capable of handling top opposition with heavy minutes.
You also talk about PK as if he has reached his max potential. He hasn't and his upside is limitless.

I don't think we're better with Hedman. I would love to have him, but he isn't better than PK.

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02-14-2013, 07:44 AM
  #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Is Subban the best player out of the 2007 draft?

Who would you most want on your team?

Kane
Couture
McDonagh
Shattenkirk
Subban

It's not typical that a 2nd rounder can be considered the best player of his draft. The other example I can think of is Shea Weber, 2nd rounder in 2003, also Chara was drafted 56th overall (then 3rd round) in 1996, and Lidstrom was drafted 53rd overall (then 3rd round) in 1989.

Benn, Turris, JVR, Alzner, Pacioretty are not in the conversation imo.



I'd say -

PKane
PKarl
Couts

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Old
02-14-2013, 07:47 AM
  #243
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No Benn?

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02-14-2013, 07:51 AM
  #244
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No Benn?
No Benn.

A 60 point center does not cut it as best player of the 2007 draft. He's not in the same category as Subban and Kane.

Couture is also a 60 point center, but he has a higher goals-to-assists ratio. He's above Benn.

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02-14-2013, 07:59 AM
  #245
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
No Benn.

A 60 point center does not cut it as best player of the 2007 draft. He's not in the same category as Subban and Kane.

Couture is also a 60 point center, but he has a higher goals-to-assists ratio. He's above Benn.
Benn was selected in the 5th round and has put up great numbers in Dallas and doesn't get a chance to play with the quality players Couture plays with in San Jose

For me the top 3 is Kane, Benn and Couture up front with PK and McDonagh on D

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02-14-2013, 08:08 AM
  #246
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
Benn was selected in the 5th round and has put up great numbers in Dallas and doesn't get a chance to play with the quality players Couture plays with in San Jose

For me the top 3 is Kane, Benn and Couture up front with PK and McDonagh on D
I've thought about it more and I'm underrating Benn, he is on par with Couture.

But they're not on par with Kane, so it comes down to Subban, Kane, and McDonagh.

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02-14-2013, 08:09 AM
  #247
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I've thought about it more and I'm underrating Benn, he is on par with Couture.

But they're not on par with Kane, so it comes down to Subban, Kane, and McDonagh.
Agreed about Pat Kane, he is the best player in that draft no doubt about it unless you ask Leafs fans who might now say it's JVR

Personally I think Benn is better then both Couture and McDonagh but that's my opinion

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02-14-2013, 08:13 AM
  #248
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
No Benn.

A 60 point center does not cut it as best player of the 2007 draft. He's not in the same category as Subban and Kane.

Couture is also a 60 point center, but he has a higher goals-to-assists ratio. He's above Benn.
Holy homer alert!!!

You dismiss Benn because of his offensive stats but the same could just as easily be applied to Subban. It would go something like this , "A 38 point d-man does not cut it as best player of the 2007 draft"

Both statements are ridiculous.

By your measuring stick, Patrick Kane is a no-brainer as best player of that draft class, with an 88 point season and 28 pts in 22 games on the way to a Stanley Cup championship.



Benn is very much in the conversation as he brings physicality and leadership to go along with his improving point totals.

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02-14-2013, 08:21 AM
  #249
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Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
Holy homer alert!!!

You dismiss Benn because of his offensive stats but the same could just as easily be applied to Subban. It would go something like this , "A 38 point d-man does not cut it as best player of the 2007 draft"

Both statements are ridiculous.

By your measuring stick, Patrick Kane is a no-brainer as best player of that draft class, with an 88 point season and 28 pts in 22 games on the way to a Stanley Cup championship.



Benn is very much in the conversation as he brings physicality and leadership to go along with his improving point totals.
Holy strawman alert !!!!

1) 38 points for a dman is better than 60 points for a center.
2) Subban is better defensively than he is offensively.

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02-14-2013, 08:27 AM
  #250
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Holy strawman alert !!!!

1) 38 points for a dman is better than 60 points for a center.
2) Subban is better defensively than he is offensively.
You are just proving my point. It is ok to only judge Benn on his stats but when it comes to your boy........

Since when is it accepted logic that 38 pts for a d-man is better than 60 points for a center. That opinion is subjective at best and subject to many mitigating variables. Benn was stuck playing behind Ribeiro whereas Subban recieved all of the prime power play time due to injuries in Montreal. I wonder how many times Benn was a healthy scratch........?

I am not saying that Benn is better or vice versa but to come up with an absolute out of these stats is silly.

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