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Mason Raymond appreciation thread!

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Old
02-14-2013, 01:34 AM
  #51
shortshorts
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Higgins over Raymond

Higgins (a real tweener) is going to command 2.5million+, yet you're going to balk at a 3.5million-4million for Raymond (a legitimate second liner).

I'm almost positive Raymond will take a pay cut to stay near home (Calgary) and stay on a contender.

Going to Calgary/Edmonton for an extra 500k would be career suicide.

edit: To justify my comment, I've never been a fan of Higgins.

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02-14-2013, 01:36 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Shareefruck View Post
Kind of what have you done for me lately there, no?

On average, I think Raymond is going to be able to demand more money than Higgins is, while not necessarily being the better player.


True.

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02-14-2013, 01:44 AM
  #53
kanuck87
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Originally Posted by LeftCoast View Post
$3.5M is not a lot for a guy who can put up 25g seasons. I would hope that we could resign him for $3M, but if he keeps up the pace he is on this year, $3.5 is not over payment. If he falls off and then disappears in the playoffs, you probably let him walk, but a 27 year old forward who provides that kind of offense and is solid defensively is worth having.
Let me see him keep up his pace and then maybe I'll give it to him. If this is the good Raymond, and he's on his current pace (57pts/82games), it's going to disappoint some of you when (not if) he goes on a slump and that pace inevitably slows down into the 40's range.

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02-14-2013, 01:48 AM
  #54
shortshorts
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Originally Posted by kanuck87 View Post
Let me see him keep up his pace and then maybe I'll give it to him. If this is the good Raymond, and he's on his current pace (57pts/82games), it's going to disappoint some of you when (not if) he goes on a slump and that pace inevitably slows down into the 40's range.
45point players cost 4-4.5million on the UFA market.

IE: David Jones, Ville Leino

Raymond >= Jones & Leino

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02-14-2013, 01:49 AM
  #55
mriswith
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What I want to see is Raymond's even strength scoring this year compared to the last few. I remember seeing stats that said his even strength scoring was stable, he just didn't get any power play time anymore. Now that he is getting power play time his totals go up... anyone know where to look to find these stats?

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02-14-2013, 01:50 AM
  #56
Kirk Mclean
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Makes me really happy to see this guy playing well again. Used to be one of my favourite players to watch on the team back in 08-09 and 09-10 before he pissed all of us fans off with his lackluster play. I'll be sad to see him go if he walks. If we don't win the cup this year I'd rather buy out Booth, sign Raymond at $3.5m/5yrs, and hope Jensen can earn a regular spot on the team and Kassian continues to develop.

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02-14-2013, 01:53 AM
  #57
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Booth and Malhotra are the guys I would let go.

Yeah, Booth is big, fast, skilled and physical, but injuries have prevented him from making the most of his opportunity here, and he is signed for 2 more years at $4.25M. Our team is really stacked on the wings and I'd rather retain Raymond, Higgins and Lapierre. Best thing for Booth is that he comes back and puts up some decent numbers so he can be traded.

Malhotra is a more difficult question, but in the end, you have to do what is best for the team. It's really sad that he is a shadow of his former self, but the team can't afford to carry him.

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02-14-2013, 01:54 AM
  #58
PG Canuck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirk Mclean View Post
Makes me really happy to see this guy playing well again. Used to be one of my favourite players to watch on the team back in 08-09 and 09-10 before he pissed all of us fans off with his lackluster play. I'll be sad to see him go if he walks. If we don't win the cup this year I'd rather buy out Booth, sign Raymond at $3.5m/5yrs, and hope Jensen can earn a regular spot on the team and Kassian continues to develop.
Why would we buyout a player with trade value?

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02-14-2013, 01:56 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Kirk Mclean View Post
Makes me really happy to see this guy playing well again. Used to be one of my favourite players to watch on the team back in 08-09 and 09-10 before he pissed all of us fans off with his lackluster play. I'll be sad to see him go if he walks. If we don't win the cup this year I'd rather buy out Booth, sign Raymond at $3.5m/5yrs, and hope Jensen can earn a regular spot on the team and Kassian continues to develop.
Why would be buy out booth? he's a decent player. If nothing else, we'd be able to trade him for something. His value isn't so low that he would get nothing back. He's not scott gomez on a horrendous contract.

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02-14-2013, 02:06 AM
  #60
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I am pretty sure we can keep all our players but yes we need to let Higgins go. Hes good for 1.9 mil but he is not consistent and really does deserve a shot in the top 6 on some team that could use him there. Not a utility guy here.

As far as Raymond goes, we cannot replace him. Simple. But my 4 mil for 4 years is what he is worth top end. We dont have time anymore to wait and see.

So gillis should offer 3.5mil and tell his agent that Raymond has to give a bit because he was inconsistent and still could be. I think both parties can live with this.

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02-14-2013, 02:07 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shortshorts View Post
Higgins over Raymond

Higgins (a real tweener) is going to command 2.5million+, yet you're going to balk at a 3.5million-4million for Raymond (a legitimate second liner).

I'm almost positive Raymond will take a pay cut to stay near home (Calgary) and stay on a contender.

Going to Calgary/Edmonton for an extra 500k would be career suicide.

edit: To justify my comment, I've never been a fan of Higgins.
To clarify MY comments, I'm not saying I'd take Higgins over Raymond bothat at 3.5 million, but I would very very easily pay 2.5+ million for Higgins before paying Raymond 3.5 (which is what they would command). That's all.

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02-14-2013, 02:11 AM
  #62
shortshorts
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Originally Posted by Shareefruck View Post
To clarify MY comments, I'm not saying I'd take Higgins over Raymond bothat at 3.5 million, but I would very very easily pay 2.5+ million for Higgins before paying Raymond 3.5 (which is what they would command). That's all.
I'll accept your comments. However, I don't agree nor do I understand the reasoning for that. It's a lot easier to replace a third line/second line tweener than it is to replace a consistent ES scoring second liner.

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02-14-2013, 02:20 AM
  #63
kanuck87
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45point players cost 4-4.5million on the UFA market.

IE: David Jones, Ville Leino

Raymond >= Jones & Leino
Just because he represents good value, it doesn't mean he's a good fit. We have enough forward depth that Raymond may become a luxury that we can't afford to keep (as is with Higgins too), and unless he overwhelms us with his play for the entire season, it's going to be hard to me to spend that money on him when we're going to be up so close to the cap next season.

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02-14-2013, 02:20 AM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shortshorts View Post
Higgins over Raymond

Higgins (a real tweener) is going to command 2.5million+, yet you're going to balk at a 3.5million-4million for Raymond (a legitimate second liner).

I'm almost positive Raymond will take a pay cut to stay near home (Calgary) and stay on a contender.

Going to Calgary/Edmonton for an extra 500k would be career suicide.

edit: To justify my comment, I've never been a fan of Higgins.
It doesn't matter who is a better player, when it comes down to it, it becomes who is the better player with Kesler. Higgins has looked better with Kesler in the past, and Raymond, not so much. It's arguable to say Raymond is a legitimate second liner, he was good in his last contract year too, so how does anyone judge him base on a dozen game when he's been crap for the past 3 years?

If Raymond is going to continue to play with Schroeder and Hansen, where he is finding success on the 3rd line. Is he worth 4 Million? Absolutely not. It's great to have a good 3rd line, but there's no way you pay that kind of money for a 3rd liner. He'll get better offers and bigger roles elsewhere. Perhaps, Jensen can slot in that line next year and that line can still be effective, when you have a creative playmaker in Schroeder and a guy that can protect the puck like Hansen.

Higgins at 2.5M, if he continues to gel with Kesler is a steal for a player playing in the top six. The biggest questions will be the 3rd player on that line, who will be making 4.2M for the next 3 years.


Last edited by Rey: 02-14-2013 at 02:31 AM.
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02-14-2013, 02:31 AM
  #65
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It doesn't matter who is a better player, when it comes down to it, it becomes who is the better player with Kesler. Higgins has looked better with Kesler in the past, and Raymond, not so much. It's arguable to say Raymond is a legitimate second liner, he was good in his last contract year too, so how does anyone judge him base on a dozen game when he's been crap for the past 3 years?

If Raymond is going to continue to play with Schroeder and Hansen, where he is finding success on the 3rd line. Is he worth 4 Million? Absolutely not. It's great to have a good 3rd line, but there's no way you pay that kind of money for a 3rd liner. He'll get better offers and bigger roles elsewhere.
Hes not a third liner but I dont think you believe that anyways. Hes been playing with Kesler for a few years now.

I think we dump our 4.25 mil 6th defense man instead of someone who has top end NHL speed and skill to boot. You dont just let a guy like Raymond walk. Replace him with whom?

The team is missing a dimension without Raymond. You aint even talking about trading the guy either. You are talking ....let him walk for nothing. Its just not happening. Its my belief Gillis is tired (like all GMs) of having to tap dance other GMs to get quality players or convince some guy to come here cheap.

Just re sign Raymond instead.

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02-14-2013, 02:36 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Wizeman View Post
Hes not a third liner but I dont think you believe that anyways. Hes been playing with Kesler for a few years now.

I think we dump our 4.25 mil 6th defense man instead of someone who has top end NHL speed and skill to boot. You dont just let a guy like Raymond walk. Replace him with whom?

The team is missing a dimension without Raymond. You aint even talking about trading the guy either. You are talking ....let him walk for nothing. Its just not happening. Its my belief Gillis is tired (like all GMs) of having to tap dance other GMs to get quality players or convince some guy to come here cheap.

Just re sign Raymond instead.
You make it sound like this team is lacking speed. Even without Raymond, this team is still fast. He has played with Kesler, and it clearly hasn't worked out the past 2 years. Just cause he's been decent for the past 5 games, people think we should automatically sign him to a long term deal with 4 million. This is a mistake waiting to happen.

Dumping Ballard is a given, but he isn't the only contract you have to dump if you want to re-sign Raymond. People focus too much on getting value in return. Sometimes the best value is a roster position and cap space, for a potential free agent signing or a kid with potential to step up.

Get rid of Booth, Ballard, and Luongo's contract. Think about the major holes on the team, then think of re-signing Raymond. Heck, when Kesler is back, give him a bit of Higgins and Raymond and see who plays better, then make a decision. People are reacting too fast. Raymond is good, but he isn't a big piece on this team. He isn't irreplaceable.


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02-14-2013, 02:44 AM
  #67
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You make it sound like this team is lacking speed. Even without Raymond, this team is still fast. He has played with Kesler, and it clearly hasn't worked out the past 2 years. Just cause he's been decent for the past 5 games, people think we should automatically sign him to a long term deal with 4 million. This is a mistake waiting to happen.

Dumping Ballard is a given, but he isn't the only contract you have to dump if you want to re-sign Raymond. People focus too much on getting value in return. Sometimes the best value is a roster position and cap space, for a potential free agent signing or a kid with potential to step up.

Get rid of Booth, Ballard, and Luongo's contract. Think about the major holes on the team, then think of re-signing Raymond. Heck, when Kesler is back, give him a bit of Higgins and Raymond and see who plays better, then make a decision. People are reacting too fast.
This is fair enough. But I dont want Raymond getting anywhere near UFA status.

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02-14-2013, 03:14 AM
  #68
shortshorts
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Raymond has produced second line ES numbers every year (including injury years). It's not a coincidence that when he gets PP minutes his numbers jump to the 40+ range.

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02-14-2013, 03:39 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by shortshorts View Post
Raymond has produced second line ES numbers every year (including injury years).
His ES production is comparable to Hansen and Higgins.

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02-14-2013, 06:18 AM
  #70
vanuck
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What I want to see is Raymond's even strength scoring this year compared to the last few. I remember seeing stats that said his even strength scoring was stable, he just didn't get any power play time anymore. Now that he is getting power play time his totals go up... anyone know where to look to find these stats?
It's on nhl.com. You can play around with the buttons and it shows a variety of stats for different years.

On just a per 82 game basis, he scored 35 ESP in 2009-10, 37 ESP in 10-11, and 27 ESP in 11-12. So right around the 30 point range. This year he's right back up to 34 per 82, though it is only 12 games in.

But yeah, when fully healthy his ES production is very similar to that of Higgins and Hansen - about 35+ points.


Last edited by vanuck: 02-14-2013 at 06:25 AM.
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Old
02-14-2013, 06:25 AM
  #71
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Raymond is inconsistent. The jury will be out on him for awhile yet. I am rooting for him.

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02-14-2013, 06:45 AM
  #72
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Maan, we've been mean to Mayray, so it's only fair we are super nice when he's as awesome as he is now!

Im not gonna say I never critisized him, cuz I did! Man ima hypocrite

But I am happy he is still here and that nobody in the organization listened to us fans

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02-14-2013, 07:27 AM
  #73
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raymonds sh% is pretty high (10.61%) so don't be surprised if there's a bit of a regression/slump in the near future. he's historically been at ~8%

interestingly enough, his corsi isn't nearly as good as it was in his good seasons, and quite a bit better than his corsi in his 'bad' season.

that said, im a huge raymond fan and a fan of how he plays the game, and i have been for a while. here's to rooting for him

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Old
02-14-2013, 07:38 AM
  #74
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I've done a full 180 on this guy, and I think he's invaluable. A lot of this optimism stems from Schroeder being a legitimate centre too.

That being said, we gotta shed salary with the cap coming down 6m and Burrows and Edler adding 4.25m to the cap. So we gotta shed $10.25m of salary, and I don't see him coming back.

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02-14-2013, 08:29 AM
  #75
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I think just for the reason of how Schroeder and Raymond compliment each other we gotta keep MayRay around.. I like Higgins too.. Who says we can't keep both?? Damn lowered Salary cap next year sucks!

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