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Do the Habs need a heavyweight enforcer?

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02-13-2013, 11:39 PM
  #351
Forsead
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Originally Posted by GFORCE View Post
Clowe is UFA this summer, as well as some guy named Doug Murray. Something like this is easily doable. We really, really got to find a good crease-clearer to add to our D group though. If he can enforce and drop the gloves, it's a nice bonus. But we desperately need a big body presence back there.
I think the plan of the organization is that Tinordi start doing the job next season, but if he isn't ready Doug Murray is my pipe dream for sure, it's been a long time I want him on the team, same has Clowe btw.

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02-13-2013, 11:42 PM
  #352
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
I struggle to find a time Boston has been cheapshotted since Savard. And they won a cup since then.

As long as this type of thing happens we won't be winning any cups anytime soon.

And by the way, what happened against Toronto would NEVER happen to Boston. I maintain that.
Not to mention, but those were just hockey plays gone bad. They weren't plays where enforcers drop the gloves and thumped them.

Where this idea that enforcers prevent the game of hockey from being played came from I'll never know. No one goes to Seguin and thumps him. Does he get hit, yeah, like everyone else in the league. There is no amount of equipment, enforcers, rules, rubber pucks, plastic blades ect that will prevent injuries, they happen.

We have needed a heavyweight for years. Some seem pretty oblivious to be honest.


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02-13-2013, 11:44 PM
  #353
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I think the plan of the organization is that Tinordi start doing the job next season, but if he isn't ready Doug Murray is my pipe dream for sure, it's been a long time I want him on the team, same has Clowe btw.
From what I've watched from Hamilton and Tinordi this year, there's no way I want the kid anywhere close to an NHL team that would give him a protector/crease peacekeeper role from the start. He's not close to being that, and doesn't understand this aspect of the game well enough to start doing that.

I really like Tinordi, but while he's done a great job to learn the speed and the logic of the pro game in the AHL this season, he still needs another year to adjust his mean streak and his physical game to really be a threat out there. Wouldn't mind if he filled his lean frame as well.

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02-13-2013, 11:45 PM
  #354
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
This may rock your world but players on every team get run and hurt by hits, I can name you 4-5 instances for Boston and any other NHL team.

Not saying i wouldn't mind a 23rd player being a 250lbs ass kicker for about 1/3 or 1/4 of games...but it's not going to turn the opposition into lambs.
How many teams have their players grabbed and beat down like we do. Do you expect enforcers to put a force field around all the players so that they never get hurt? That was never the intention or even remotely close to the purpose of having an enforcer.

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02-13-2013, 11:51 PM
  #355
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IMO the big change is that "heavyweights" used to also be competent hockey players. The vast majority aren't any more. This thread spent a day clamoring for Matt "8 pts in the AHL" Kassian. John Ferguson he ain't.
A myth, Tony Twist couldn't play hockey to save his life, there were hundreds that sucked and had decent careers because of what they brought.

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02-13-2013, 11:52 PM
  #356
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
Not to mention, but those were just hockey plays gone bad. They weren't plays where enforcers drop the gloves and thumped them.

Where this idea that enforcers prevent the game of hockey from being played I'll never know. No one goes to Seguin and thumps him. Does he get hit, yeah, like everyone else in the league. There is no amount of equipment, enforcers, rules, rubber pucks, plastic blades ect that will prevent injuries, they happen.

We have needed a heavyweight for years. Some seem pretty oblivious to be honest.
Beating up an offender after the damage is done is all but meaningless. No matter how he was pummeled Matt Cooke seriously compromised the Senators' season without much effect on the Penguins. So what good are the enforcers?

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02-13-2013, 11:56 PM
  #357
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Beating up an offender after the damage is done is all but meaningless. No matter how he was pummeled Matt Cooke seriously compromised the Senators' season without much effect on the Penguins. So what good are the enforcers?
This was a freak accident. Come on now. Cooke, even considering his past, won't get any hearing with Shanahan (it has been confirmed after the game).

The enforcers will make sure guys like Gallagher keep playing their game and don't take abuses for going to the front of the net, and that guys like Kostka don't pick an easy one by dropping the gloves with him. Getting cross-checked in the back might not end your season, but as you get hit repeatedly with a stick, you sure are less likely to go back to the net afterwards.

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02-14-2013, 12:02 AM
  #358
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Originally Posted by GFORCE View Post
This was a freak accident. Come on now. Cooke, even considering his past, won't get any hearing with Shanahan (it has been confirmed after the game).

The enforcers will make sure guys like Gallagher keep playing their game and don't take abuses for going to the front of the net, and that guys like Kostka don't pick an easy one by dropping the gloves with him. Getting cross-checked in the back might not end your season, but as you get hit repeatedly with a stick, you sure are less likely to go back to the net afterwards.
These arguments show a complete lack of understanding for the game tbh. How the hell could anything stop that play tonight, it was a freak accident, like almost all the other plays cited here.

Anyone bringing up the karlsson injury as something meaningful in this discussion is lost. They don't even deserve a reply, aside from full body armour nothing could prevent that sort of play. Happens a 100 times a week, sometimes it results in an injury sometimes it doesn't. Our players getting beat down is not an accident, it's done by design and with no fear of retribution.

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02-14-2013, 12:05 AM
  #359
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
These arguments show a complete lack of understanding for the game tbh. How the hell could anything stop that play tonight, it was a freak accident, like almost all the other plays cited here.

Anyone bringing up the karlsson injury as something meaningful in this discussion is lost. They don't even deserve a reply, aside from full body armour nothing could prevent that sort of play. Happens a 100 times a week, sometimes it results in an injury sometimes it doesn't. Our players getting beat down is not an accident, it's done by design and with no fear of retribution.
And people wonder why Plekanec always starts the season hot and ends up going cold as it advances. In a few years, I bet people will also wonder why Gallagher is less visible as the season advances

The only one who doesn't look like he's affected by this is Subban. It's quite surprising to be honest, but really understandable, since the kid was always known for having a real, real strong character. But then again, as he gets hit and punched after plays, he'll also lose some of his "umph".

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02-14-2013, 12:07 AM
  #360
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
These arguments show a complete lack of understanding for the game tbh. How the hell could anything stop that play tonight, it was a freak accident, like almost all the other plays cited here.

Anyone bringing up the karlsson injury as something meaningful in this discussion is lost. They don't even deserve a reply, aside from full body armour nothing could prevent that sort of play. Happens a 100 times a week, sometimes it results in an injury sometimes it doesn't. Our players getting beat down is not an accident, it's done by design and with no fear of retribution.
What does retribution after the fact accomplish besides putting the enforcer in the penalty box? And sometimes the enforcer is in turn beaten up.

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02-14-2013, 12:10 AM
  #361
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
And this is all you have to hang your hat on.

Injuries.

You are the one making the claim for some magical protection from injuries by having a team that can stand up and fight against the tough teams in the NE.

But you know that. Most everyone knows that. But that little red herring fallacy that you and a few others on this thread throw out is just that......a fallacy that you project upon the people who want this team to be tougher and have a level of respect.

But you know that as well.

So I will say this again. Enforcers will not protect skaters from getting sliced by an opponent. They will not prevent concussions when players are hit hard. They will not prevent broken bones or the high elbows.

No, they will allow the game of hockey to be played the way its supposed to be played. A great example of that is the last Buffalo Boston game........a clean affair save for Campbell's fight against Kaleta. That game was won on skill because Buffalo now has the manpower to combat the Bruins goonery.

Maybe you dont know that or dont care. Not for me to decide.

But please, for the sake of intellectual honesty, the biggest majority of the fans who want an enforcer know that this will not stop injuries. So quit projecting that and pointing out all of the Bruins injuries, or even worse, the injury to Karlsson tonight.

Thank you.
Good, I'm glad to see acknowledgement that fighting doesn't protect skill players from injury. Believe it or not, there are those who stand by that argument for goons.

I don't know where you get that condescending "and this is all you have to hang your hat on" jazz from. My main beefs with carrying an enforcer is that staged fights are silly sideshows that have nothing to do with hockey, that there's no evidence that being good at fighting helps win games, and that the vast majority of "heavyweights" are not NHL caliber players. The injury prevention shot was aimed at the ridiculous "protection" argument that I have heard many times, but I guess that's not your take.

BTW, the Boston/Buffalo game - a fight, a slash, a cross check, a high stick and an unsportsmanlike - doesn't seem like an especially clean game to me. Not to mention the Bruins won 3-1, outshooting the Sabres 39-26 despite (with the help of?) John Scott's 5 minutes.


Last edited by Roulin: 02-14-2013 at 12:37 AM.
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02-14-2013, 12:45 AM
  #362
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Originally Posted by GFORCE View Post
And people wonder why Plekanec always starts the season hot and ends up going cold as it advances. In a few years, I bet people will also wonder why Gallagher is less visible as the season advances

The only one who doesn't look like he's affected by this is Subban. It's quite surprising to be honest, but really understandable, since the kid was always known for having a real, real strong character. But then again, as he gets hit and punched after plays, he'll also lose some of his "umph".
Because he averages over 20 minutes a night?

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02-14-2013, 01:40 AM
  #363
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Originally Posted by Forsead View Post
While being realist I would want a guy that could at least make an impact in the game, not just a goon that you play 3 minutes a game, kind of Neil, Thornton, Rupp sometime ago, Chris Thorburn, Lucic, Doug Murray, Ryane Clowe, Christ Stewart.


Maybe Brad Winchester, Ben Eager or Cody Mcleod could do the job.
Bryan Boyle with the Rangers can play and he's a center to boot. Dude is huge.

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02-14-2013, 01:47 AM
  #364
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I don't think anybody is playing scared, that's an old myth. Nobody that gets scared because there's a big bad evil guy on the other team gets to the NHL level.
I swear sometimes it's as if people think these guys never played versus enforcers or faced any type of attempted physical intimidation until getting to the NHL.

Nobody is scared of playing versus Colton Orr.

It has nothing to do with preventing injuries either.

It's all about answering the attempted intimidation. A guy like Orr or Neil can talk smack to our guys all game, doesn't mean our team will lose focus, hide in their shells, or lose a game. Heck, I'm pretty sure the star players would lose to play versus guys like Orr more often, they would absolutely dominate them.
But, it's always good to have someone on the team that can step on the ice and just shut up the guy.
Important to note that sometimes, no matter how much they get their face bashed in, some players will keep yapping away a la Barnaby.
Teams have intimidators cause they intimidate, that's pretty simple. Having these guys, it makes the team more couragous like the Leafs, they seem to have more team spirit since they recalled guys like Orr. And it intimidate the opposite club, making them lose their concentration. Neil is the master at it. He's feared by pretty much everybody and he knows it and when he comes at you or just fight someone, it elevates his team when they're not in it. Just like when he did so on the first game against the Habs. He fought Prust and it was a game changer for the Sens, it gave them confidence.

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02-14-2013, 01:50 AM
  #365
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Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
Teams have intimidators cause they intimidate, that's pretty simple. Having these guys, it makes the team more couragous like the Leafs, they seem to have more team spirit since they recalled guys like Orr. And it intimidate the opposite club, making them lose their concentration. Neil is the master at it. He's feared by pretty much everybody and he knows it and when he comes at you or just fight someone, it elevates his team when they're not in it. Just like when he did so on the first game against the Habs. He fought Prust and it was a game changer for the Sens, it gave them confidence.
Yes, he is, but not because he's feared or anything, it's mostly his timing that makes him great, he always seems to know when to push buttons, when to stay quiet and when to fight.

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02-14-2013, 01:50 AM
  #366
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
the "shocking" part actually is guys like you thinking that.

I couldnt care less what fans of other teams, in other cities, cities I dont plan on going even for the most part, think of the Habs.
But it's important what we think about ourselves. And when the Habs gets a beating, it doesn't me proud to be a Hab. It tarnishes this once great organisation. It's a big black eye.

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02-14-2013, 01:52 AM
  #367
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Yes, he is, but not because he's feared or anything, it's mostly his timing that makes him great, he always seems to know when to push buttons, when to stay quiet and when to fight.
Neil is feared, buddy, sorry to burst your bubble but intimidation exist. When people know it's him in front of the net, they think twice about approaching him.

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02-14-2013, 02:01 AM
  #368
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But it's important what we think about ourselves. And when the Habs gets a beating, it doesn't me proud to be a Hab. It tarnishes this once great organisation. It's a big black eye.
when something happen to the Habs, good or bad, it happen to THEM, not to us.

there's no "ourselves" there.


besides, Habs arent getting any beating cause they're missing an enforcer, they're getting beat up cause guys like Moen/Armstrong dont show up in physical games, they get beat up cause guys like Patches rather cry to the ref instead of making Grabovski "bite his fist" and so on...

I mean, we have a few guys over 6'0, and yet the one willing to go at it are the midgets, the one going into traffic are the Gionta and Galhager...

I have no problem with Gally fighting or Gorges fighting - even against bigger players, but man... guys like Moen, Armstrong and others of this ilk we had over the years... not impressed.

Want an enforcer ? what for ? so he can stop doing his job after just a few games ? (once he realize he's the only one willing)... sorry, that's a waste of time, money and energy.

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02-14-2013, 02:03 AM
  #369
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Neil is feared, buddy, sorry to burst your bubble but intimidation exist. When people know it's him in front of the net, they think twice about approaching him.
you're not, I know it exist... but seeing Neil having no problem whatsoever finding partners to dance tells me he isnt feared much.

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02-14-2013, 05:50 AM
  #370
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An honest poll of participants in this thread.

Which would you rather have on the 4th line:

1) Players who aren't good enough to be NHL 2nd liners but could be 2nd liners in the AHL, in other words a line of failed skill players, such as Matt D'Agostini, Yannick Weber, Andreas Engvist, or Colby Armstrong.

2) Players who play a completely different game than 2nd liners, who can do specific things like draw penalties (Lapierre), play on the penalty kill (Lapierre, Prust) win faceoffs (Halpern), and intimidate the other team and impose the law on the ice (Thornton, Bordeleau, McGratten).

It is clear in hindsight that the Gainey-Gauthier administration preferred option 1. They saw the 4th line as just another 3rd line which was to be just another 2nd line. Personally, I'd rather have option 1. My ideal 4th line might look something like Bordeleau-Lapierre-Prust.

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02-14-2013, 07:22 AM
  #371
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Originally Posted by Forsead View Post
I think the plan of the organization is that Tinordi start doing the job next season, but if he isn't ready Doug Murray is my pipe dream for sure, it's been a long time I want him on the team, same has Clowe btw.
Why would Doug Murray be a pipe dream? He's #6 in San Jose and might drop to #7 once Demers comes back, he played under 15 minutes last game. I think they are looking to move him.

Clowe I would be ok with it as long as it's a short term deal, he has high mileage and wear and tear, I wouldn't go over 3 mil/year for 2 years.

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02-14-2013, 07:34 AM
  #372
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The thing is, many players themselves have spoken about how important it is to have those kind of guys. So that kinda invalidates everything you just said.

Having a tough guy gives a trickle-down effect. Everyone else gets a little bit tougher. All of a sudden Prust and Moen can fight middleweights if a message needs to be sent.
I don't believe that it has much effect.
Maybe if you have big tough guys on pretty much every line, sure. Otherwise, I don't believe it changes anything. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure players rather have one than not, why wouldn't they?
But I think it has very little effect on the actual game. That doesn't mean that it never has an effect, it could, but I think it's a lot more rare than what people think.

They hold a purpose, but is it to the point where it will change the position of your team in the standings over a season? I don't think so.

But, as I said, on our team, considering we have Weber and Kaby in the box, might as well try to move one and bring an enforcer. These two guys aren't playing unless an injury happens or someone plays real bad.

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02-14-2013, 07:34 AM
  #373
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Clowe I would be ok with it as long as it's a short term deal, he has high mileage and wear and tear, I wouldn't go over 3 mil/year for 2 years.
right, if Prust can get near 3M, Clowe won't go below 4M especially for a short term deal.

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02-14-2013, 07:39 AM
  #374
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
An honest poll of participants in this thread.

Which would you rather have on the 4th line:

1) Players who aren't good enough to be NHL 2nd liners but could be 2nd liners in the AHL, in other words a line of failed skill players, such as Matt D'Agostini, Yannick Weber, Andreas Engvist, or Colby Armstrong.

2) Players who play a completely different game than 2nd liners, who can do specific things like draw penalties (Lapierre), play on the penalty kill (Lapierre, Prust) win faceoffs (Halpern), and intimidate the other team and impose the law on the ice (Thornton, Bordeleau, McGratten).

It is clear in hindsight that the Gainey-Gauthier administration preferred option 1. They saw the 4th line as just another 3rd line which was to be just another 2nd line. Personally, I'd rather have option 1. My ideal 4th line might look something like Bordeleau-Lapierre-Prust.
Armstrong brings a solid defensive game, can agitate and chip in some offense. Some fans ahve no patience and want to give up on him already.

You can't have a 4th line with 3 goons, you need at least 1 guy that can move up to top 9 and preferably one that can kill penalities.

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02-14-2013, 07:44 AM
  #375
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Armstrong brings a solid defensive game, can agitate and chip in some offense. Some fans ahve no patience and want to give up on him already.

You can't have a 4th line with 3 goons, you need at least 1 guy that can move up to top 9 and preferably one that can kill penalities.
Exactly

Having a 4th line with 3 goons that have no skills other than being tough fighters is a complete weakness. Taking 4-5mins of ice a game gives the other team that chance to make us pay for icing that line, as well you put added pressure on your other lines with more icetime since you aren't able to roll 4 lines. It pretty much shoots you in the foot

I'd rather have a 4th line of Moen's and Armstrongs with a tough guy in and out of the lineup than a line of 3 goons. Least you can use guys like moen on pk

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