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Old
02-13-2013, 11:12 PM
  #101
Canucker
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
You have to be ok with being covered in bruises to play hockey. I'm not sure what game you were playing.
Not even close to being the same when you are a goalie...oh yeah, you've never been a goalie...never mind.

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02-13-2013, 11:15 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
Not even close to being the same when you are a goalie...oh yeah, you've never been a goalie...never mind.
I'm all ears. Explain to me how it's different when the goalie, with all that gear on, gets hit with the same slap-shot I take off the foot.

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02-13-2013, 11:35 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
I'm all ears. Explain to me how it's different when the goalie, with all that gear on, gets hit with the same slap-shot I take off the foot.
You are going to get bruises playing but you do what you can to mitigate any injury, pain and discomfort...the difference is that goalies are always directly in between the net and the shooter and are EXPECTED to block every puck directed their way. Goalies already get bruises even with their newer, larger equipment and you expect them to sacrifice even more safety in order to have a few more goals scored at the end of the year. I'm fine with streamlining goalie gear so it isn't so bulky in some areas but it absolutely cannot come at the expense of safety IMO.

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02-13-2013, 11:42 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
You are going to get bruises playing but you do what you can to mitigate any injury, pain and discomfort...the difference is that goalies are always directly in between the net and the shooter and are EXPECTED to block every puck directed their way. Goalies already get bruises even with their newer, larger equipment and you expect them to sacrifice even more safety in order to have a few more goals scored at the end of the year. I'm fine with streamlining goalie gear so it isn't so bulky in some areas but it absolutely cannot come at the expense of safety IMO.
And I separated my shoulder three times and was still EXPECTED to take a hit to make a play. I'm not about taking away protection from the goalie (as I've said many times in this thread) but it's ridiculous to call a bruise a "major compromise to safety". Dealing with pain and discomfort and battling through it is part of what makes hockey great. When did goalies quit being hockey players?

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02-13-2013, 11:55 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
And I separated my shoulder three times and was still EXPECTED to take a hit to make a play. I'm not about taking away protection from the goalie (as I've said many times in this thread) but it's ridiculous to call a bruise a "major compromise to safety". Dealing with pain and discomfort and battling through it is part of what makes hockey great. When did goalies quit being hockey players?
I suggest you strap on some pads and have some junior players rip some pucks at you with some of the gear goalies used in the 80's and 90's...take a shot off the clavicle and come tell me what you think. What are bruises right now with current gear are deep tissue and bone bruises and fractures with less protective gear. Changing goalie equipment would produce such a minor change to offensive production that it hardly warrants any serious discussion IMO.

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02-14-2013, 01:49 AM
  #106
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You have no idea what will happen if they reduce goalie equipment size. Your only argument is to ban the butterfly style, which is ridiculous. The size of a guy's butterfly is more on his technique, flexibility and anatomy anyways. You kill thigh rises, a guy with a wide butterfly still has a wide butterfly.

Let's say we reduce thigh rises - you really think that will increase the number of 5-hole goals? I say it won't. In fact, it might actually result in another increase in save percentage as the position adapts (which it always has) to guys who are more active with their rebound control and less passive in their blocking technique than most goalies are today.

Even at the NHL level, stick discipline is an issue. Newer goalies also over-rely on their pads to make saves. These are the leftovers from the Allaire-style blocking systems.

First of all, close crease scrambles wouldn't be that effective because you'd just see more paddle down. So a guy with no thigh rise could still seal the whole bottom of the net with his pads, and he'd cover the 5-hole with paddle-down. There is already relatively little time and space in these situations and most goalies aren't making reaction saves from that position anyways.

Far off shots with a smaller thighrise might encourage guys to actually use their stick correctly and steer rebounds to corners. If that becomes more prevalent and less neglected, you might actually see less rebounds and dirty goals available - on ALL shots. You'd also see a move to softer pads. Old deer-hair pads could basically stop rebounds dead, while the modern gear gives up fat rebounds in exchange for being light.

Chest/arm protectors - most guys today tuck into their pants, so you're not seeing big laterally inflated stuff like the old days. I don't buy your shoulders argument - pucks shot in that area already have a good chance to score, and that hasn't changed from my old gear. Honestly, I don't think you could make arms any smaller than they are now.

Several times I have taken shots directly off the floating shoulder protector, which is the THIRD layer of protection in that area (facing forward, so I am not getting lateral coverage, thank you). I couldn't move my arm for a couple of minutes. My friend cracked my old tank of an Itech Pro mask with a slapshot. Some guys shoot it that hard.

Anyways, it doesn't matter. The goaltending position is always evolving. Goalies are also now some of the best athletes on the team. Go ahead and reduce thigh rises. I'd be willing to bet that it won't have the effect that you think it will.


Last edited by mossey3535: 02-14-2013 at 01:57 AM.
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Old
02-14-2013, 02:13 AM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
Right now there is no need for manufacturers to make gear smaller, in fact there is incentive to keep goalies big.
Vaughn for example has a 'mobile' chest protector versus their 'blocking' C/A. Individual goalies also choose to wear streamlined pants. So that's just untrue.

Non-NHL spec older equipment won't even fit into the Reebok Premier goalie cut that's standard for NHL goalies.

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02-14-2013, 02:25 AM
  #108
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Just give up guys, its not worth the time to argue with him. This guy clearly has never strapped on a set of pads, and yet he is trying to argue with 3 goalies about our gear protection. Somehow we are supposed to believe he understands the protection more than we do, since he "knows the game, knows goalies, and knows what is protection and what isn't."



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02-14-2013, 04:41 AM
  #109
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I seem to remember the Philly-Pittsburgh series being less about gear size and more about technique. Bigger or smaller, protective or not, good goalies find a way to get in the way of the puck.
I NEVER had a good game because of my old gear, nor a bad one because of my newer stuff.
I'm more flexible, lighter, and read the play better than I did 10 years ago. Make my gear smaller and I'll gain mobility, and the effect is even more dramatic with the professionals. You want more scoring? Enforce the rules. You can reduce gear size all you want, but if nobody can get a shot off, it won't matter.

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02-14-2013, 04:45 AM
  #110
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judging from statistics and my personal experience, players are much more sustainable to serious injuries than goalies. not even close...

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Old
02-14-2013, 10:21 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by jigsaw99 View Post
judging from statistics and my personal experience, players are much more sustainable to serious injuries than goalies. not even close...
Thing is, how many goalies are in the system vs players? Its a lot easier for the depth to replace skaters than goalies. If a skater goes down you'd have 17 other guys that can help eat up his icetime. If a goalie goes down, well thats that.

GMs would be crying for goalie equipment upgrades when they lose their top 2 starters 2 or 3 games into the season.

Can you imagine Canucks not having Luongo and Schneider right now? Gillis would have to call up Climie or Canatta, and if those guys ever get hurt they'd have to call up David Honzik for crying out loud. Its not feasible at all.

Edit: Actually I'd like to see the statistic you speak of. With the exception of Lundqvist, Price, Rinne and Quick, seems like every starter in the league has gotten injured and missed games at some point over the last two to two and a half seasons. That list includes Thomas, Rask, Luongo, Backstrom, Kiprusoff, Khabibulin, Hiller, Lehtonen, Ward, Brodeur, Miller, Anderson, Smith, Pavelec, Bryzgalov, Halak, Reimer, etc etc


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Old
02-14-2013, 10:23 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by kevinsane View Post
I seem to remember the Philly-Pittsburgh series being less about gear size and more about technique. Bigger or smaller, protective or not, good goalies find a way to get in the way of the puck.
I NEVER had a good game because of my old gear, nor a bad one because of my newer stuff.
I'm more flexible, lighter, and read the play better than I did 10 years ago. Make my gear smaller and I'll gain mobility, and the effect is even more dramatic with the professionals. You want more scoring? Enforce the rules. You can reduce gear size all you want, but if nobody can get a shot off, it won't matter.
Exactly, as soon as the teams reverted back to the 80's style of defence in that series the scoring shot way up. Why? cause players can come into the zone with speed, and had time to shoot and pick corners.

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02-14-2013, 11:22 AM
  #113
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I say remove the goalie pads and go with this.

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02-14-2013, 01:17 PM
  #114
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Garth is retired.

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02-14-2013, 02:31 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by thepuckmonster View Post


I beg you all to watch this.

Scores aren't lower because of pad size or gear size or anything. Goaltending is about position, reads, instincts and athleticism now. And modern goalies are just better at it. Ergo, modern hockey players need to be more creative in ways of how to score on them.
Anyone notice hes wearing his pads on the wrong legs lol


And I think Equipment right now in todays NHL is fine leave it alone.

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02-14-2013, 03:51 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by LuckyDay View Post


I say remove the goalie pads and go with this.
lol look at that five hole..

Funny they still get lit up even with such a little net.

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Old
02-14-2013, 08:21 PM
  #117
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This guy saying goalies don't get bruises

Try taking a slapshot off your arm, best case scenario you're only left with a welt and extreme pain for a few seconds, I've had several bone bruises from shots off my arm which are not exactly fun even if you weren't playing hockey with it, now imagine taking another slapshot to the place where you have a bone bruise.

As for pad size helping with taking away the bottom of the net, and also your claim that a goalie can just drop down to his knees take away the entire bottom of the net and not have to make a single recovery save

I'm 6 foot 4 inches and most of my height is in my legs as a point of reference, in order for me to take away the whole bottom of the net I have to stretch out as far as I can go to get one foot on each post, this now leaves my five hole gaping and makes it so I can barely move and have no way to get back up quickly. A butterfly is alot more compact then that so your assertion that you can take away the entire bottom of the net his hog wash, the reason it feels like that is because shocker, goalies as trained to play angles now, it's really evident if you ever compare goalies from different generations in beer leagues, the younger guys like me that grew up trained to be butterfly style and know our angles and how to challenge tend to do a lot better then the older guys that still play stand up and don't know their angles at all. What you have a problem with is that goalies have evolved and the position is more refined so a player can't take an unscreened slapshot from the point and have it go in with regularity anymore, this is good for hockey it means the game is improving, that the goals that do get scored have to be prettier and goalies no longer look like the village idiot all the time.

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02-14-2013, 08:35 PM
  #118
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^

Dan Patrick Interviews Chris Pronger

DP: Do you socialize with goalies?
CP: Well, yeah, my best friend in the league is a goaltender -- but I will have to admit that I have yet to meet a normal goalie.
DP: Who would be the goalie closest to normalcy?
CP: Oh, my god. Honestly, there is not a normal goalie.
DP: Well, who is so bizarre...
CP: It's a prerequisite to be a weirdo. If you're a goalie, you're weird.
DP: Why is that?
CP: Well, if you had to stand in the net and face 100 mph slap shots or -- I don't know. I think you got to be crazy to be a net goalie.
DP: Do you ever feel sympathy for a goalie?
CP: Not very often, no.

DP: Because they can look pretty bad. They can be dejected.
CP: They can make or break your team. If you have a good goalie, you can have a good team. If you got a bad goalie, you're going to have a bad team ... I think the crazier your goalies are the better they are.
DP: So if you had kids, you would never let a goalie watch your children?
CP: No, I wouldn't.

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02-14-2013, 09:04 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by VinnyC View Post
^

Dan Patrick Interviews Chris Pronger

DP: Do you socialize with goalies?
CP: Well, yeah, my best friend in the league is a goaltender -- but I will have to admit that I have yet to meet a normal goalie.
DP: Who would be the goalie closest to normalcy?
CP: Oh, my god. Honestly, there is not a normal goalie.
DP: Well, who is so bizarre...
CP: It's a prerequisite to be a weirdo. If you're a goalie, you're weird.
DP: Why is that?
CP: Well, if you had to stand in the net and face 100 mph slap shots or -- I don't know. I think you got to be crazy to be a net goalie.
DP: Do you ever feel sympathy for a goalie?
CP: Not very often, no.

DP: Because they can look pretty bad. They can be dejected.
CP: They can make or break your team. If you have a good goalie, you can have a good team. If you got a bad goalie, you're going to have a bad team ... I think the crazier your goalies are the better they are.
DP: So if you had kids, you would never let a goalie watch your children?
CP: No, I wouldn't.
We all have idiosyncrasies doesn't make us the village idiot, we're much closer to the crazy old hermit, but watching the goalies of old facing a slapshot from the blue line unscreened then see him try to stop it with his skate, fail, then fall square on his ass makes you look idiotic.

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02-14-2013, 09:53 PM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
I suggest you strap on some pads and have some junior players rip some pucks at you with some of the gear goalies used in the 80's and 90's...take a shot off the clavicle and come tell me what you think. What are bruises right now with current gear are deep tissue and bone bruises and fractures with less protective gear. Changing goalie equipment would produce such a minor change to offensive production that it hardly warrants any serious discussion IMO.
I played Junior hockey in the 90's and took shots off of every part of the body including my face.

A serious effort to reduce pad size will equal more goals and a more exciting goaltending style. I don't see how you can make a reasonable argument otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mossey3535 View Post
You have no idea what will happen if they reduce goalie equipment size. Your only argument is to ban the butterfly style, which is ridiculous. The size of a guy's butterfly is more on his technique, flexibility and anatomy anyways. You kill thigh rises, a guy with a wide butterfly still has a wide butterfly.

Let's say we reduce thigh rises - you really think that will increase the number of 5-hole goals? I say it won't. In fact, it might actually result in another increase in save percentage as the position adapts (which it always has) to guys who are more active with their rebound control and less passive in their blocking technique than most goalies are today.

Even at the NHL level, stick discipline is an issue. Newer goalies also over-rely on their pads to make saves. These are the leftovers from the Allaire-style blocking systems.

First of all, close crease scrambles wouldn't be that effective because you'd just see more paddle down. So a guy with no thigh rise could still seal the whole bottom of the net with his pads, and he'd cover the 5-hole with paddle-down. There is already relatively little time and space in these situations and most goalies aren't making reaction saves from that position anyways.

Far off shots with a smaller thighrise might encourage guys to actually use their stick correctly and steer rebounds to corners. If that becomes more prevalent and less neglected, you might actually see less rebounds and dirty goals available - on ALL shots. You'd also see a move to softer pads. Old deer-hair pads could basically stop rebounds dead, while the modern gear gives up fat rebounds in exchange for being light.

Chest/arm protectors - most guys today tuck into their pants, so you're not seeing big laterally inflated stuff like the old days. I don't buy your shoulders argument - pucks shot in that area already have a good chance to score, and that hasn't changed from my old gear. Honestly, I don't think you could make arms any smaller than they are now.

Several times I have taken shots directly off the floating shoulder protector, which is the THIRD layer of protection in that area (facing forward, so I am not getting lateral coverage, thank you). I couldn't move my arm for a couple of minutes. My friend cracked my old tank of an Itech Pro mask with a slapshot. Some guys shoot it that hard.

Anyways, it doesn't matter. The goaltending position is always evolving. Goalies are also now some of the best athletes on the team. Go ahead and reduce thigh rises. I'd be willing to bet that it won't have the effect that you think it will.
It's funny how personally you guys are taking this. Your inability to acknowledge anything that can be done to reduce padding shows your bias. If you read the article... there are already goalies wearing less equipment... as many have mentioned. It can be done without risking life and limb.


Last edited by Scurr: 02-14-2013 at 10:00 PM.
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02-14-2013, 10:06 PM
  #121
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I bet you this guy is one of those idiots on the team that takes slap shots at us while we are not looking at him during warm ups.

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02-14-2013, 10:16 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Hank4Hart View Post
I bet you this guy is one of those idiots on the team that takes slap shots at us while we are not looking at him during warm ups.
I'm the guy getting a pat on the shin pads from my goalie for getting in front of shots without the goalie gear on. I'm not scared of bruises.

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02-14-2013, 10:34 PM
  #123
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Because taking a couple shots each time you play is the same as trying to block 30-40 every game and the hundreds in practice.

[mod edit]


Last edited by Dado: 02-14-2013 at 11:22 PM.
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02-14-2013, 10:56 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
I'm the guy getting a pat on the shin pads from my goalie for getting in front of shots without the goalie gear on. I'm not scared of bruises.
That's great, but you choose to make those sacrifices, if you chose to you could probably wear extra protection to save you some punishment. Myself, as a goalie, I'm not interested in taking unnecessary punishment and I'll wear as much protection as possible without impeding my ability to stop pucks. Like I said, I think some gear can be streamlined so its not as bulky but I really don't believe it causes a serious impact on scoring league wide.

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02-14-2013, 11:05 PM
  #125
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I don't like what that does to the record book and I don't think it's necessary.
You can't compare players through the ages based on stats.

* Rules change. simple rule changes alter scoring

* Introduction of slap shots compared to 1920s

* composite sticks vs wooden sticks

* refs interpretations, team you play on, coaching systems all effect goalie stats

* They've moved the nets closer or further from the back wall

Record books are nice and all but being better at what you do than those around you is what really matters, there is more variability between eras than an extra inch or two would introduce.

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