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All Encompassing Tanking/Rebuilding/Selling at Deadline Thread 2.0

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Old
02-14-2013, 12:36 AM
  #901
ECWHSWI
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
There is only so much demand for rentals every years, meanwhile there is always a supply.

A realistic haul, I think, might be one more first rounder and one more second.

in hockey, the definition of a rental is a player you acquire to end the season and P.O., no more... that excludes guys who have extra years on their contract.


so, you think one of Cole, Gionta, Bourque is going to land us a 1st round pick ?

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02-14-2013, 12:38 AM
  #902
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Nobody has suggested that those players could get us a first. So either way, your post was a total fail.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
If Cole plays like he did last year he's worth a first for sure. If he plays like he's playing now... forget about it.
Bourque would have to have a good year to get a first.
Gionta's not a first.

Markov is definitely a first if he plays well.
Plecs is definitely a first.


I think we waited too long to deal Cole.

well well...

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02-14-2013, 12:41 AM
  #903
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Gionta might net you a first round pick from New Jersey but that's it.

Bourque ain't even getting you a second. Cole, who knows.

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02-14-2013, 12:52 AM
  #904
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
how many top 5 picks is required in your opinion ?
Evidence shows 2 or 3 is a good start.

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02-14-2013, 01:01 AM
  #905
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
no worries, they'll all come back saying they were "tank picks".
Gally and Drouin would be tank picks , yes. IE: Not wasting picks in trades to finish 8th, and conserving a high pick, as painful as losing is, for 2 years, which, by the way, is all anyone here is asking for. Last year, and this year.

Further, we are not asking the team or coach to lose, in fact, I want Habs to win every game and I hate it when they lose. We are asking management, if the team is poor, to show some patience for 2 years and accept low finishes in return for 2 cup quality top 5 picks.

Shocking!

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02-14-2013, 01:03 AM
  #906
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There is only so much demand for rentals every years, meanwhile there is always a supply.

A realistic haul, I think, might be one more first rounder and one more second.

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02-14-2013, 01:08 AM
  #907
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Originally Posted by No Team Needed View Post
Gionta might net you a first round pick from New Jersey but that's it.
I doubt it. But I'd love to try.
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Originally Posted by No Team Needed View Post
Bourque ain't even getting you a second. Cole, who knows.
Really depends on how they play.

I don't see why another team would want to take Bourque though. Cole has shown that he can play really well so there might be a chance if he picks up his play. I had hoped we could get a first for him but he's looked terrible so far this year.

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02-14-2013, 01:11 AM
  #908
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
As the season moves along teams become more agressive if they are in the playoff chase or falling out of it and want to get back. that's why players values are higher at the trade dealine than in the summer.

Plus injuries can pile up, his salary and cap hit drops with every game played.
Should be very very interesting to see what Ottawa does about Karlsson. This is so like Habs a few years ago, with Marky.

Do they panic and strive for 7th by trading prospects/picks that could put them over the top in 3 years for an overpriced Vet, or do they hunker down, play as well as possible, and ride it out, possibly missing the PO, and getting a much better pick?

Hate to see a player injured, but I will love it if Ottawa panics. Nice to see the shoe on the other foot for once.

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02-14-2013, 01:16 AM
  #909
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
by the way... lol... if our top 3 becomes Backstrom, he'll never win anything...
That's gonna piss LG off, so I'll take this one: The chances of a top 5 busting are much much lower than a 15th, or a 20th. Go look at the draft records the last 30 years. It is all about increasing your odds of a great pick while you have the opportunity to do so.

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02-14-2013, 01:23 AM
  #910
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Gally and Drouin would be tank picks , yes. IE: Not wasting picks in trades to finish 8th, and conserving a high pick, as painful as losing is, for 2 years, which, by the way, is all anyone here is asking for. Last year, and this year.

Further, we are not asking the team or coach to lose, in fact, I want Habs to win every game and I hate it when they lose. We are asking management, if the team is poor, to show some patience for 2 years and accept low finishes in return for 2 cup quality top 5 picks.

Shocking!
that is NOT tanking.

no, that's what YOU are asking for.

again, that's what YOU are asking for. There's no "we" there.

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02-14-2013, 01:24 AM
  #911
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That's gonna piss LG off, so I'll take this one: The chances of a top 5 busting are much much lower than a 15th, or a 20th. Go look at the draft records the last 30 years. It is all about increasing your odds of a great pick while you have the opportunity to do so.
it will obviously as he spent his time using the Caps as en example of succesful rebuild, and he was wrong.

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02-14-2013, 01:27 AM
  #912
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I suspect a lot of posters overestimate the Habs because they are Habs fans and not NHL fans. " we have gally, markov, pleks, price!!!" They do not realize that there are a lot of good players on othet teams too.

Example: ESWCHI does not realize that Backstrom is a good player.
Which is precisely why you have to overload on picks. You need more good picks than other teams, while you can get them. Always. If it was good enough for Sammy Pollock, it should be good enough for us.

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02-14-2013, 01:54 AM
  #913
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
Markov for a 1st round pick
Cole for a 1st round pick
Bourque for a 1st round pick
Gionta for a 1st round pick
Plekanec for a 1st round pick


The cup will be ours!
Thanks for that. In fact, if we did that this deadline, the cup would be ours in 4 years, and probably again in the 3 after that..

But no one is suggesting we do that. We are not morons.

I have suggested trading at deadline, if we are 9th or lower:

Priority 1: DD, Kabs, Moen. For as many and as high picks as we can get.

Priority 2: Cole, and only if he asks for it. He would get a first, and a prospect.

Priority 3: Markov, and only for a first, and a good prospect. Otherwise, **** off very much. He might give us 4 more very good years.

Priority 4: Pleks. Only for a first, a second, and a good prospect. Other wise **** off very much also.

I only expect the priority one trades to happen, and I will be happy with that. If it does not happen, then I will not trust Bergy going forward.

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02-14-2013, 01:57 AM
  #914
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Thanks for that. In fact, if we did that this deadline, the cup would be ours in 3 years.

But no one is suggesting we do that. We are not morons.

I have suggested trading at deadline, if we are 9th or lower:

Priority 1: DD, Kabs, Moen. For as many and as high picks as we can get.

Priority 2: Cole, and only if he asks for it. He would get a first, and a prospect.

Priority 3: Markov, and only for a first, and a good prospect. Otherwise, **** off very much. He might give us 4 more very good years.

Priority 4: Pleks. Only for a first, a second, and a good prospect. Other wise **** off very much also.

I only expect the priority one trades to happen, and I will be happy with that. If it does not happen, then I will not trust Bergy going forward.
should stop using "we" as you're pretty much the only one not suggesting that, if anything, your good friend LG have dreams about it...

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02-14-2013, 01:57 AM
  #915
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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
Should be very very interesting to see what Ottawa does about Karlsson. This is so like Habs a few years ago, with Marky.

Do they panic and strive for 7th by trading prospects/picks that could put them over the top in 3 years for an overpriced Vet, or do they hunker down, play as well as possible, and ride it out, possibly missing the PO, and getting a much better pick?

Hate to see a player injured, but I will love it if Ottawa panics. Nice to see the shoe on the other foot for once.

I would wait till the 20 games mark and if we're about 8th or below, I would dangle Andrei Markov to the Sens who just lost their best D. I would be very interested in Ben Bishop and a few picks.

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02-14-2013, 02:00 AM
  #916
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I would wait till the 20 games mark and if we're about 8th or below, I would dangle Andrei Markov to the Sens who just lost their best D.
the same Sens who, despite being IN the PO last season said they wouldt trade any picks/prospects to bolster their line up ?

good luck with that.

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02-14-2013, 02:13 AM
  #917
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I would wait till the 20 games mark and if we're about 8th or below, I would dangle Andrei Markov to the Sens who just lost their best D. I would be very interested in Ben Bishop and a few picks.
I think a lot of teams might want a power play specialist like Markov: LA, Nashville, Detroit, Carolina, Philadelphia, etc.

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02-14-2013, 02:13 AM
  #918
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
the same Sens who, despite being IN the PO last season said they wouldt trade any picks/prospects to bolster their line up ?

good luck with that.
Different ball game losing Karlsson might well kill their season and it's not a market that can afford taking a season off. Also Murray said he will trade Bishop.

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02-14-2013, 02:15 AM
  #919
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Different ball game losing Karlsson might well kill their season and it's not a market that can afford taking a season off. Also Murray said he will trade Bishop.
Honestly, why Bishop? How will he help us become a contender?

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02-14-2013, 02:19 AM
  #920
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Honestly, why Bishop? How will he help us become a contender?
I like his style, his size, I think he would make us stronger in the net in the long run.

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02-14-2013, 02:34 AM
  #921
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I think a lot of teams might want a power play specialist like Markov: LA, Nashville, Detroit, Carolina, Philadelphia, etc.
shows how much you know about the game, really...

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02-14-2013, 04:38 AM
  #922
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Nobody is arguing that only top picks win cups. We're arguing that they are an important ingredient to most cup winning teams. I don't care if Lafleur isn't as important as Dryden or Robinson... fact is he's a huge part of that team, just like Lemieux, Modano or Staal.

(And actually Dryden was traded for as a prosepct too)
Your not addressing the issue, if you can get 5-6 equally important players why do we HAVE to tank to get that one extra guy? Tanking is risky, that's why the only teams who do it have basically nothing to begin with. You've never explained why we should take that risk beyond it might help us in the future while ignoring the fact that it might hurt us too.

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The difference is that you can't count on those picks to turn into stars the way you can if you have multiple top picks. You are better off with 3 top five picks than you are with 15 picks from 11-30. Five times as many picks and you'll STILL wind up with fewer superstars. And finding them beyond the first round is like finding a needle in a haystack.
Not sure I agree with that it depends on lot on the draft year. 2003 for example I would much rather the 15 picks, same goes for 2007. You have a better chance of getting a great player with a top 5 pick, so what? It doesn't address the fact that in order to get that top pick you have to dismantle the team or have really bad luck. If you dismantle the team you might not be able to put it back together again once you get that pick.

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We wasted YEARS doing this. It got us nowhere. Why do you want to continue down this path when we've seen that it doesn't work?
You have to ignore what happened pre-cap because it was a completly different landscape. If you look post lockout we haven't been wasting our time, we've improved from bubble team that usually misses the playoffs to a team that makes the playoffs more often than not who has a good future ahead of it. That's not wasting our time.


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We've already developed a culture of apathy here. We've developed a culture where 8th place is the bar for success. I'd much rather see a GM come in and work towards building a cup... we aren't risking anything but 8th place.
I'm not referring to fan-attitude, I'm talking about the team culture (Management, Players, Coaches). The team definetly doesn't have a culture of apathy.

We are risking more than 8th, we risk becoming bad and not getting better. Why do you ignore this.

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We have a franchise goalie because we won a onetime lottery with a top five pick. We had no business getting that pick and lucked out. He was our first top five in 20 years man! And.... he just happens to be our best player.

Yet for some reason you want to argue against rebuilding? Why?
Every team needs luck, we lucked into a random top-5 pick. Boston got lucky when they ended up with Seguin & Hamilton instead of two mid 1sts. LA got lucky that Kopitar was still around at 11th.

I'm against rebuilding because where the team is at right now. By tanking we are risking our future. It's simply not worth it for a team in MTL's position.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
It's not rebuilding man... As for Souray, again see what we dealt Rivet for. Yet somehow you're arguing that we couldn't have done better?

We didn't want to finish 9th. We wanted 8th so we held onto him. Then we missed and he left. That's the kind of short term thinking we saw for years and it's killed us.
The team was completly rebuilt. It was a rebuild through free agency. Maybe you should check out a dictionary. Souray could've gotten more than Rivet, I think he was worth the equivalent of 2 1st round picks. 2 mid-late 1st =/= Bobby Ryan or similar player. We also tried to re-sign him, if we had signed him to a 6 year deal would it still have been short term thinking?


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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Last year was no different. Our GM went for quick fixes and desperation moves designed to get us to 8th. He didn't care about the future. Fortunately he sucked at his job and we got a top 3 pick out of it but we still wasted assets and saddled ourselves with stupid contracts along the way.
The difference last year is that as we were getting near the deadline we were clearly out of the picture. Most other years we are in 7th or 8th. He didn't suck at his job, he gambled on Markov and lost the bet. He tried to fix it without mortgaging our future. And when that didn't work he made the right call to start selling.

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Yeah dude, they are. We are squeezing the trade value out of these guys as we pursue 8th place and a 1st round knockout.
Except they bring more than just trade value.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Building towards a cup is not the same as scrambling to make 8th. You have to take longer term moves if you want to win.
Who said anything about scrambling, have I ever said we should trade picks/prospects for vets to make a push for 8th? You build slowly taking advantage of opportunities when they present themselves. It's the opposite of scrambling.

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I love Price but we're not winning a cup this year dude...
You have a crystal ball do you? It's unlikely we win the cup this year (1-2%). It's unlikely that Pittsgurgh wins the cup this year too (~15%).

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02-14-2013, 05:02 AM
  #923
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
It doesn't. Keeping Spacek doesn't help at all, he should be traded... for picks! Not for Thomas freaking Kaberle!

Trading for Kaberle does absolutely nothing but perpetuate medicority. If you aren't a contender and you're going to deal away assets you do it for future value not for MORE mediocre over the hill players esp when they have dumb contracts. Even if Kaberle had worked out and got us to 8th... it just puts us further away from the cup because now we're stuck with this guy when we could've used our assets to trade for picks.
Except Carolina tried to trade Spacek at the deadline for picks and couldn't get anything. So the options are keep him and lose him for nothing or take the risk of Kaberle. If Kaberle was producing at 0.5ppg like he did last year with us, we could trade him right now for a 2nd. If he doesn't produce he's gone after 1 year at the cost of cap space we wouldn't/couldn't use anyways. That's good asset management especially when it's not your money.

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And we've already told you it's a calculated risk. Not all the picks/prospects will work out but some will.
If it's a calculated risk it means you've actually run some numbers right? So what are the odds?

There are 3 outcomes
1) We become contenders and/or win a cup.
2) We stay a middle of the pack team
3) We end up a bad team

What are the odds of those outcomes right now if we stay the course, and how do they change if we trade our vets. If it's a calculate risk then show me your calculations.

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02-14-2013, 05:05 AM
  #924
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are you really trying to imply that a "playoffs at all cost" strategy is the best path for a team to take?
I don't think anyone's suggested palyoffs at any cost. But there is a whole lot of middle ground between playoffs at any cost, and tanking.

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02-14-2013, 05:34 AM
  #925
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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
Gally and Drouin would be tank picks , yes. IE: Not wasting picks in trades to finish 8th, and conserving a high pick, as painful as losing is, for 2 years, which, by the way, is all anyone here is asking for. Last year, and this year.
There's a big difference between conserving your picks and trading contributing players for picks. We should not be trading any of our picks, but that's not license to trade away every player who might not be with us 5 years from now.

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