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Is Mario Lemieux a bit overrated?

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02-14-2013, 12:41 AM
  #51
shazariahl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
Is Lemieux more revered for the incredible things he can do with his combination of size and skill and his ability to make good players look stupid than he is for his actual numbers? Yes, I'll buy that. Think Rick Nash, times 1000.

But in Lemieux's case the numbers are there, and they're there in a big way.
I agree with this. Is Mario overrated in the sense that many believe he'd have "for sure" beaten Gretzky records if it hadn't been for cancer? Because I've heard that before. In that sense, I guess he'd be overrated. But that's only because he's being compared to Wayne Gretzky. Under any other circumstances he really can't be overrated. He's hands down one of the greatest players of all time, and IMO one of the most exciting to watch that I've ever been blessed to see.

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02-14-2013, 12:59 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Stars23 View Post
In his 1995-96 and 2000-01 Stats - close to 50% of his total Goals and Assists came from the POWERPLAY - not that impressive when you look at the whole picture.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/teams/players/bio/?id=4011



If you look in the top ES Goal Scoring Seasons - Lemieux is not even in the top 10.


In fact he has only led the league ONCE in ES GOALS!

http://www.hockey-reference.com/lead...ev_yearly.html

http://www.hockey-reference.com/lead...ev_season.html

Also All his His International stats are average (except for the 87' playing with Gretzky and the ref's)

Discuss

DROPS MIKE
I have never seen the issue with a player who excelled on the power play. This was Lemieux, but it is crazy to suggest he wasn't just as good of a 5-on-5 player. The one thing I loved about Lemieux is that he would score in any situation and was a threat to do so:

1987-'88 70 goals - 38 S, 22 PP, 10 SH
1988-'89 85 goals - 41 ES, 31 PP, 13 SH
1992-'93 69 goals - 47 ES, 16 PP, 6 SH
1995-'96 69 goals - 30 ES, 31 PP, 8 SH

Those are his best goal scoring seasons. Put him on the ice in any situation and he scored. That's the Lemieux I remember for sure and this is one of the first time I've ever heard that become a knock on the man.

His goal scoring was rather spread out. He led the NHL in goals three times. He led the NHL in even strength goals one. Twice in power play goals and three times in shorthanded goals. Not to mention the only person to ever score a goal in 5 different ways in a game (ES, PP, SH, EN, penalty shot). Since when is this a bad thing?

As for your criticisms about him internationally, all I can say is that you should watch the Canada Cup in 1987 for starters. That will likely prevent you from making any comment about his international play. Plus take into account he was injured for the 1991 and 1996 World/Canada Cups in which I think he would have been the best player in each of them. Then was retired for the 1998 Olympics. Only after his comeback at the age of 36 did he play in the 2002 Olympics where he had 6 points in 5 games (not good?) and made a play that will be talked about for 100 years in the Gold medal game. This was an older Mario and he along with Yzerman and Sakic were THE keys to Canada winning (although Iginla showed up for the Gold medal game too).

In 2004 we saw an injury riddled Lemieux who was almost 39 play in the World Cup. He only played 26 more NHL games after this. He had a rather modest 5 points in 6 games but the line of Mario, Sakic and Iginla was the best in the tournament. Mario also got an assist in the opening minute of the final game. In both tournaments where Mario was old he still produced and didn't let his country down.

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02-14-2013, 01:05 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Wizeman View Post
I mean, 'most goals assisted or scored as a percentage of the teams goals 57% wtf? I guess other players needed their team mates to score LESS so he could pad their totals to beat marios record.
Just in case you thought that record was silly, he had Paul Coffey on his team who cracked 113 points that year. The Penguins had 347 goals that year, good for 3rd in the NHL. What am I missing here?

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02-14-2013, 01:47 AM
  #54
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The thing with discrediting a guy for having lots of goals/points on the power play, is that youre assuming he dosnt score those goals/points anyways. Or at least most of them. If a guy is constantly on the power play and scores every single time, its not his fault. You had to watch Mario play. Nothing overrated about him.

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02-14-2013, 01:49 AM
  #55
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He scored 5 goals in 5 different ways.

Proof he could score in any situation, no one else has ever done it. How about, not even remotely close to ever being overrated.

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02-14-2013, 05:02 AM
  #56
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I took a closer look at some numbers

I list here league leaders in even strength points per game in comparison to Lemieux's numbers for every year since 1987-88 (the first season nhl.com lists those stats).
I did not write down the exact PPG for you, only the games played (GP) and the even strength points (ESP), but you can trust me that this stuff is correct.

A couple of observations:
-- my table is probably tough to read, I'm sorry

-- for every year up until the 2000-01 season only two or three players scored very close to or above 1.0 ESP per game -- even in the high scoring late 80s/early 90s the gap between the top guys and 4th/5th/6th spots is immense. Basically, if you score at a 0.85 rate you are very, very good.

-- Mario Lemieux is the only player in the league to consistently score around (usually above) 1.0 even strength points per game between 1988 and 2001. Every other guy who did it was either a one-hit-wonder (usually this), great but became too old in this time frame (Gretzky), or great but was too young at the beginning of the time frame (Jagr and Lindros).

1987-88 -- Lemieux: 77gp, 74esp / better: only Gretzky 64gp, 91esp / 3rd: Yzerman 64gp, 61esp
1988-89 -- Lemieux: 76gp, 102esp / better: ----------------------- / next best: Gretzky 78gp, 100esp, Yzerman 80gp, 101esp / interesting: 4th and 5th are Gretzky's linemates Nicholls 87esp and Robitaille 74esp
1989-90 -- Lemieux: 59gp, 71esp / better: only Gretzky 73gp, 96esp / 3rd: Yzerman 79gp, 79esp
1990-91 -- Lemieux: 26gp, 31esp / better: Gretzky 78gp, 103esp; Oates 61gp, 73esp / 4th: Hull 78gp, 86esp
1991-92 -- Lemieux: 64gp, 74esp / better: ------------------------ / 2nd: Stevens 80gp, 81esp
1992-93 -- Lemieux: 60gp, 96esp / better: ------------------------ / 2nd: Yzerman 84gp, 87esp
1993-94 -- Lemieux: 22gp, 22esp / better: Lindros 65gp, 67esp -----/ 3rd: Fedorov 82gp, 81esp
1994-95 -- Lemieux: ----------- / 1st___: Lindros 46gp, 46esp -----/ 2nd: Renberg 47gp, 45esp
1995-96 -- Lemieux: 70gp, 73esp / better: Jagr 82gp, 93esp --------/ 3rd: Lindros 73gp, 75esp
1996-97 -- Lemieux: 76gp, 79esp / better: Lindros 52gp, 56esp; Jagr 63gp, 67esp / 4th: Leclair 82gp, 81esp
1997-98 -- Lemieux: ----------- / 1st___: Kariya 22gp, 26esp ------/ 2nd: Selšnne 73gp, 67esp
1998-99 -- Lemieux: ----------- / 1st___: Jagr 81gp, 82esp --------/ rest: forget it
1999-00 -- Lemieux: ----------- / 1st___: Jagr 63gp, 67esp --------/ 2nd: Bure 74gp, 72esp / 3rd: Sakic 60gp, 58esp
2000-01 -- Lemieux: 43gp, 43esp / better: ------------------------ / 2nd: Jagr 81gp, 78esp
2001-02 -- Lemieux: 24gp, 17esp / better: five (or more guys) ---- / 1st: Kovalev 67gp, 53esp / 2nd: jagr 69gp, 54esp
2002-03 -- Lemieux: 67gp, 46esp / better: six guys --------------- / 1st: Forsberg 75gp, 73esp / 2nd: Thornton 77gp, 65esp


Note:
These guys scored above 1.0 ESP per game and are not listed above: Rob Brown (88-89), Mogilny (92-93), Roberts (92-93)

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Old
02-14-2013, 07:05 AM
  #57
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I'd say he is a bit underrated. Considering he had to suffer through a chronic bad back and didn't even realize the importance of fitness early on, imagine what he would have done if he had had an entirely healthy career?

I think he is often overlooked in discussion now-a-days because people just jump to Gretzky - Crosby comparisons.

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02-14-2013, 07:09 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Pantokrator View Post
I'd say he is a bit underrated. Considering he had to suffer through a chronic bad back and didn't even realize the importance of fitness early on, imagine what he would have done if he had had an entirely healthy career?

I think he is often overlooked in discussion now-a-days because people just jump to Gretzky - Crosby comparisons.
What do you mean by Gretzky-Crosby comparison? I have never heard anyone seriously comparing Crosby to Gretzky. (Well i have seen few post on the main board that say Crosby is the best ever, but those are pretty much just hyperbole's)

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02-14-2013, 07:09 AM
  #59
MakeTheGoalsLarger
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No .

Eric Lindros is overrated. some people trying to look knowledgable by saying Lindros had the best peak of all time, which is laughable.

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02-14-2013, 08:43 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by ziggo66 View Post
1987-88 -- Lemieux: 77gp, 74esp / better: only Gretzky 64gp, 91esp / 3rd: Yzerman 64gp, 61esp
1988-89 -- Lemieux: 76gp, 102esp / better: ----------------------- / next best: Gretzky 78gp, 100esp, Yzerman 80gp, 101esp / interesting: 4th and 5th are Gretzky's linemates Nicholls 87esp and Robitaille 74esp
1989-90 -- Lemieux: 59gp, 71esp / better: only Gretzky 73gp, 96esp / 3rd: Yzerman 79gp, 79esp
1990-91 -- Lemieux: 26gp, 31esp / better: Gretzky 78gp, 103esp; Oates 61gp, 73esp / 4th: Hull 78gp, 86esp
1991-92 -- Lemieux: 64gp, 74esp / better: ------------------------ / 2nd: Stevens 80gp, 81esp
1992-93 -- Lemieux: 60gp, 96esp / better: ------------------------ / 2nd: Yzerman 84gp, 87esp
It's a side track, but I thought I'd point out the bold. Also, Nicholls (who should be in the HHOF) didn't play with Gretzky at even strength; only on the PP.

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02-14-2013, 09:12 AM
  #61
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Watched him play, and....nope.

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02-14-2013, 10:01 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MakeTheGoalsLarger View Post
No .

Eric Lindros is overrated. some people trying to look knowledgable by saying Lindros had the best peak of all time, which is laughable.
While you are absolutely correct, there are VERY, VERY few players who have ever come close to matching/surpassing the ability to dominate a game that Lindros had in the mid to late 90s.

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02-14-2013, 10:12 AM
  #63
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It shows that when teams were on the pk and couldnt triple team Mario he put up insane numbers.

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02-14-2013, 10:37 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by shazariahl View Post
I agree with this. Is Mario overrated in the sense that many believe he'd have "for sure" beaten Gretzky records if it hadn't been for cancer? Because I've heard that before. In that sense, I guess he'd be overrated. But that's only because he's being compared to Wayne Gretzky.
I'm not sure about "for sure" but Mario's PPG was there for him to have come close to Gretzky if not for Mario's injuries (not just cancer).

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02-14-2013, 10:37 AM
  #65
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The real question should be if Mario was playing today in his prime how much salary does he command?

Does he take a team friendly deal?
Hometown discount?

Maybe the Leafs offer him $15 million a year

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02-14-2013, 11:12 AM
  #66
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His 199 point season was the greatest single season in NHL history. Better than Gretzky's 215 pt masterpiece in 85-86

compare who he played with relative to who Gretzky played with.

Plus Mario played 4 fewer games (76 to Wayne's 80)

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02-14-2013, 11:47 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by blamebettman View Post
His 199 point season was the greatest single season in NHL history. Better than Gretzky's 215 pt masterpiece in 85-86

compare who he played with relative to who Gretzky played with.

Plus Mario played 4 fewer games (76 to Wayne's 80)
I would take the following seasons over that

Gretzky's 81-82 season - broke goals AND assists record in the same season while being flanked by 21/22 year olds. Yes, Kurri, Messier and Coffey grew into HoFers, but they certainly weren't at this stage of their career.

Gretzky's 83-84 season - 222 point pace and includes the ridiculous 51 game point streak

Gretzky's 85-86 season - 163 assists is probably the most impressive single season stat out of any hockey player

Gretzky's 86-87 season - He scored 183 points. Next best was 108 points; an all time best 69% point difference

Lemieux's 92-93 season - 160 points in 60 games. 224 point pace

Orr's 69-70 season - 120 points as d-man when no one else in the league hit 100 points. Walked away with Norris, Art Ross, Hart and Smythe

Orr's 74-75 season - 135 points as a d-man. Again, winning the Art Ross as a d-man is something that we'll likely never see again.

Howe's 52-53 season - 95 points when the next best in the league was a HoFer at 71 points. He DOUBLED 8th place's point total and almost hit 50 goals in an era where that wasn't even on the radar.

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02-14-2013, 12:08 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jigglysquishy View Post
I would take the following seasons over that

Gretzky's 81-82 season - broke goals AND assists record in the same season while being flanked by 21/22 year olds. Yes, Kurri, Messier and Coffey grew into HoFers, but they certainly weren't at this stage of their career.

Gretzky's 83-84 season - 222 point pace and includes the ridiculous 51 game point streak

Gretzky's 85-86 season - 163 assists is probably the most impressive single season stat out of any hockey player

Gretzky's 86-87 season - He scored 183 points. Next best was 108 points; an all time best 69% point difference

Lemieux's 92-93 season - 160 points in 60 games. 224 point pace

Orr's 69-70 season - 120 points as d-man when no one else in the league hit 100 points. Walked away with Norris, Art Ross, Hart and Smythe

Orr's 74-75 season - 135 points as a d-man. Again, winning the Art Ross as a d-man is something that we'll likely never see again.

Howe's 52-53 season - 95 points when the next best in the league was a HoFer at 71 points. He DOUBLED 8th place's point total and almost hit 50 goals in an era where that wasn't even on the radar.
Thats stars playing with a lot of stars though.

Sure Lemieux had Coffey but his wingers were Errey and Brown with a 2nd line of Cunnyworth-Quinn and a rookie Kevin Stevens. Cullen and Recchi came up as the year went on but they were still rookies too.

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02-14-2013, 12:23 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blamebettman View Post
His 199 point season was the greatest single season in NHL history. Better than Gretzky's 215 pt masterpiece in 85-86

compare who he played with relative to who Gretzky played with.

Plus Mario played 4 fewer games (76 to Wayne's 80)
Do I have to say it yet again?
Quote:
For the millionth time...the year Mario had 199 points, Pittsburgh had 491 power plays. The year Wayne had "only" 16 more points, Edmonton had 295 power plays. So "only" 16 more points with 196 fewer power plays.
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...3&postcount=61

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02-14-2013, 12:38 PM
  #70
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He's in that tier with Roy where certain fans of his completely ignore the prima-donna-y things he did throughout his career while seemingly holding comparable instances doubly against his closest competitors.

There's also a fair amount of ridiculous anti-Gretzky hyperbole that gets brought up by that crowd.

All that being said, there are legitimate arguments for him anywhere from 1-4 and most people stick to those, rather than resorting to the inconsistencies I mentioned earlier.

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02-14-2013, 12:51 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stars23 View Post
In his 1995-96 and 2000-01 Stats - close to 50% of his total Goals and Assists came from the POWERPLAY - not that impressive when you look at the whole picture.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/teams/players/bio/?id=4011



If you look in the top ES Goal Scoring Seasons - Lemieux is not even in the top 10.


In fact he has only led the league ONCE in ES GOALS!

http://www.hockey-reference.com/lead...ev_yearly.html

http://www.hockey-reference.com/lead...ev_season.html

Also All his His International stats are average (except for the 87' playing with Gretzky and the ref's)

Discuss

DROPS MIKE
Did you EVER watch him play live? If you didn't, should you really be starting threads about this particular player?

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02-14-2013, 01:04 PM
  #72
Julius Caesar Milan
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No way

If anything he is underrated

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02-14-2013, 01:07 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stars23 View Post
In his 1995-96 and 2000-01 Stats - close to 50% of his total Goals and Assists came from the POWERPLAY - not that impressive when you look at the whole picture.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/teams/players/bio/?id=4011



If you look in the top ES Goal Scoring Seasons - Lemieux is not even in the top 10.


In fact he has only led the league ONCE in ES GOALS!

http://www.hockey-reference.com/lead...ev_yearly.html

http://www.hockey-reference.com/lead...ev_season.html

Also All his His International stats are average (except for the 87' playing with Gretzky and the ref's)

Discuss

DROPS MIKE
A) It's mic, not "mike". B) You never should have picked it up in the first place.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Qward View Post
This is a problem with people that are too young to have watched a player play.
Agreed, there are too many 13-19 year olds on this forum that only really pay attention to stats and haven't seen the player actually play but talk as if they are an authority on that player or subject. Even worse in the prospects section.

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02-14-2013, 02:42 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by NoThreat View Post
Agreed, there are too many 13-19 year olds on this forum that only really pay attention to stats and haven't seen the player actually play but talk as if they are an authority on that player or subject. Even worse in the prospects section.
The problem with people who only check stats and come to a conclusion based solely on that is that Mario's stats are through the roof. I can't see how even a casual fan would look at his stats and find a way to overrate them

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02-14-2013, 05:11 PM
  #75
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I guess I could be the poster boy for overrating Mario.

When we voted for Top 100 (which turned into Top 70) I had Mario ahead of Gretzky. Based it purely on what I saw. He appeared to be the better hockey player. When you look at the numbers alone its hard to see. I understand that. But I still think Mario was at least the equal of Gretzky.

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