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Trade Deadline: Who will we see in red?

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Old
02-13-2013, 11:01 PM
  #176
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Originally Posted by Motown Beatdown View Post
We will hear more excuses about cost at the deadline and liking the team we have. And get "insert injured Red Wings" back is like making a trade.
Only this time smart fans would be cheering for no trade deadline accquistions, as they'd only hurt us in the future while not being enough to lift us over the hump.

The Wings are not true contenders this year. Sending a few good prospects and a 1st for a guy like Iginla will not change that.

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02-13-2013, 11:08 PM
  #177
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I would send Holland a fruit basket if he got rid of Cleary and Quincey.

Addition by subtraction.

I know i made an anti Holland post earlier in this thread, but i am fully on board with him not adding anyone this year.

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02-13-2013, 11:26 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
I would send Holland a fruit basket if he got rid of Cleary and Quincey.

Addition by subtraction.
Cleary I'll give you he's been terrible, but you keep bagging on Quincey despite him outplaying many of our defence almost every game.

Are you still hung up on the first 3 games of the season? I wanted him gone then too, but since then he's been +10, has been one of our better penalty killers and leads the team in blocked shots.

Why not bag on Kronwall for being -10 over the same stretch? continually screening our own goalie and failing to cover anyone defensively?

I get that you don't like him but hating on him after even his good games makes the valid criticism of him after a bad one carry far less weight.

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02-13-2013, 11:31 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by FlashyG View Post
Cleary I'll give you he's been terrible, but you keep bagging on Quincey despite him outplaying many of our defence almost every game.

Are you still hung up on the first 3 games of the season? I wanted him gone then too, but since then he's been +10, has been one of our better penalty killers and leads the team in blocked shots.

Why not bag on Kronwall for being -10 over the same stretch? continually screening our own goalie and failing to cover anyone defensively?

I get that you don't like him but hating on him after even his good games makes the valid criticism of him after a bad one carry far less weight.
I dont bag on Kronwall because his sucking has to do with being asked to do too much. I blame Holland for Kronwall sucking it up. Using Kronwall correctly would make him look good.

I bag on Quincey because he got a scam artist contract and doesnt deserve any of it.

I also dont agree with your assessment that he has been one of the Wings better d-men. Watching him play and fumble around with the puck like it's a live grenade is infuriating. Quincey was brought in to be a top four d-man (I totally disagree, but Holland thinks he is), and is not playing up to that level. His hockey IQ is bordering on being labeled mentally retarded.

I feel that he makes the team worse when he is on the ice. He had a couple good stretches tonight, but those moments dont happen often enough.

Before Kindl's meltdown tonight i thought Kindl was the better player.


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02-13-2013, 11:50 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
I dont bag on Kronwall because his sucking has to do with being asked to do too much. I blame Holland for Kronwall sucking it up. Using Kronwall correctly would make him look good.

I bag on Quincey because he got a scam artist contract and doesnt deserve any of it.

I also dont agree with your assessment that he has been one of the Wings better d-men. Watching him play and fumble around with the puck like it's a live grenade is infuriating. Quincey was brought in to be a top four d-man (I totally disagree, but Holland thinks he is), and is not playing up to that level.

I feel that he makes the team worse when he is on the ice. He had a couple good stretches tonight, but those moments dont happen often enough.

Before Kindl's meltdown tonight i thought Kindl was the better player.
How is Holland responsible for Kronwall not being able to play defence? He's not asking him to do anything, Babcock is the one who decides who gets what ice-time in what role. The rest of the defence are all + players with the exception of him and his partner. Some of that is match-ups but sooner or later we're going to have to admit Kronwall just isn't very good in his own end. He needs a shutdown guy like Ericsson with him or he'll continue to give up goals.

Quincey is in the top 20 defenders in the entire NHL in +/- so saying he makes the team worse is just your own personal bias that has no basis in fact.

You may not like Quincey's contract but in reality 3.775 is pretty much average for a middle pairing defenceman. He's been at worst #3 on the Wings depth chart this season, so I don't know how you can say he isn't a top 4 guy.

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02-13-2013, 11:52 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by FlashyG View Post
How is Holland responsible for Kronwall not being able to play defence? He's not asking him to do anything, Babcock is the one who decides who gets what ice-time in what role. The rest of the defence are all + players with the exception of him and his partner. Some of that is match-ups but sooner or later we're going to have to admit Kronwall just isn't very good in his own end. He needs a shutdown guy like Ericsson with him or he'll continue to give up goals.

Quincey is in the top 20 defenders in the entire NHL in +/- so saying he makes the team worse is just your own personal bias that has no basis in fact.

You may not like Quincey's contract but in reality 3.775 is pretty much average for a middle pairing defenceman. He's been at worst #3 on the Wings depth chart this season, so I don't know how you can say he isn't a top 4 guy.
He is top four by default. He should not be in the top four on a team with a good defense.

Kronwall was labeled as the best d-man on the team by management and fans. He is being forced to do too much and because Kronwall doesnt want to let anyone down he is trying to live up to those expectations. I don't think it's fair to completely blame Kronwall. He has definitely sucked, but a good deal of that sucking has to do with who he is playing with and unrealistic expectations.

You switch Kronwall with Quincey and i can confidently say that Kronwall will look like the old Kronwall.


Quincey would get you into Seth Jones territory.

Remember the Sharks series and people were excited about how well Kronwall was playing? Fans thought Kronwall had taken the next step. Fast forward to the next season and his minutes and responsibilities go up and he looks like crap. You could argue he regressed, but he just isnt good enough to handle the additional ice time and responsibilities.

He is a #2 dman who is being forced to do way too much.


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02-14-2013, 12:23 AM
  #182
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
He is top four by default. He should not be in the top four on a team with a good defense.

Kronwall was labeled as the best d-man on the team by management and fans. He is being forced to do too much and because Kronwall doesnt want to let anyone down he is trying to live up to those expectations. I don't think it's fair to completely blame Kronwall. He has definitely sucked, but a good deal of that sucking has to do with who he is playing with and unrealistic expectations.

You switch Kronwall with Quincey and i can confidently say that Kronwall will look like the old Kronwall.


Quincey would get you into Seth Jones territory.

Remember the Sharks series and people were excited about how well Kronwall was playing? Fans thought Kronwall had taken the next step. Fast forward to the next season and his minutes and responsibilities go up and he looks like crap. You could argue he regressed, but he just isnt good enough to handle the additional ice time and responsibilities.

He is a #2 dman who is being forced to do way too much.
Who cares what he was labelled by management or by fans, that has no bearings on whether or not he covers someone in front of the net. Expectations aren't making Kronwall suck...Kronwall sucking is what's making him suck.

You're bashing a player based on what he "Might" do wrong while bending over backwards to make excuses for the guy who is actually screwing up left and right, costing the team points in the process.

Maybe Kronwall should be given less minutes and Quincey's pairing should get more, based on their play this season that would improve our Goals against #'s.

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02-14-2013, 12:30 AM
  #183
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Who cares what he was labelled by management or by fans, that has no bearings on whether or not he covers someone in front of the net. Expectations aren't making Kronwall suck...Kronwall sucking is what's making him suck.

You're bashing a player based on what he "Might" do wrong while bending over backwards to make excuses for the guy who is actually screwing up left and right, costing the team points in the process.

Maybe Kronwall should be given less minutes and Quincey's pairing should get more, based on their play this season that would improve our Goals against #'s.
Both players suck.

Kronwall is playing tougher minutes. I watch Quincey play and i guess we just have a very different perspective while watching him play.

I fully agree Kronwall sucks, but Kronwall isnt good enough to be a #1 dman. He should be playing in Quincey's spot and Quincey should be on the third pairing. Unfortunately cap space isnt a very good #1 d-man.

I am bending over backwards for Kronwall because i feel he got dealt a lousy hand and is trying to make the best of it because management and coaching expect him to be that guy.

Kronwall should be playing better, but unfortunately he isnt. You are correct that he is making mistakes that he shouldnt make no matter what, but i am just trying to rationalize Kronwall's sucking to a point.

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Old
02-14-2013, 12:40 AM
  #184
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Both players suck.

Kronwall is playing tougher minutes. I watch Quincey play and i guess we just have a very different perspective while watching him play.

I fully agree Kronwall sucks, but Kronwall isnt good enough to be a #1 dman. He should be playing in Quincey's spot and Quincey should be on the third pairing. Unfortunately cap space isnt a very good #1 d-man.

I am bending over backwards for Kronwall because i feel he got dealt a lousy hand and is trying to make the best of it because management and coaching expect him to be that guy.

Kronwall should be playing better, but unfortunately he isnt. You are correct that he is making mistakes that he shouldnt make no matter what, but i am just trying to rationalize Kronwall's sucking to a point.
See you're trying to drag Quincey in with Kronwall...Quincey hasn't sucked in his role (With the exception of the first 3 games) Since that point he's +10 and has been on the ice for very few goals against. I agree he's had easier opposition, but his job is to keep the puck out of his net against whoever he's put on the ice against and if possible help his team score. He's done that better than any other defenceman on the team despite his miscues with the puck. If that warrants him not being good enough to be on the 2nd pairing then what exactly does he need to do to earn some respect from you?

Maybe Kronwall should be playing with Quincey on the 2nd pairing, let Smith play with Ericsson when he comes back.

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02-14-2013, 12:46 AM
  #185
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How is Holland responsible for Kronwall not being able to play defence? He's not asking him to do anything, Babcock is the one who decides who gets what ice-time in what role. The rest of the defence are all + players with the exception of him and his partner. Some of that is match-ups but sooner or later we're going to have to admit Kronwall just isn't very good in his own end. He needs a shutdown guy like Ericsson with him or he'll continue to give up goals.

Quincey is in the top 20 defenders in the entire NHL in +/- so saying he makes the team worse is just your own personal bias that has no basis in fact.

You may not like Quincey's contract but in reality 3.775 is pretty much average for a middle pairing defenceman. He's been at worst #3 on the Wings depth chart this season, so I don't know how you can say he isn't a top 4 guy.
based on what?

he was last among defensemen in ice-time tonight

he was last on Sunday too

and Saturday

and Thursday

i'd love to know how being last in ice-time the last 4 games in a row equates to "at worst #3 on the Wings depth chart this season"

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02-14-2013, 12:56 AM
  #186
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based on what?

he was last among defensemen in ice-time tonight

he was last on Sunday too

and Saturday

and Thursday

i'd love to know how being last in ice-time the last 4 games in a row equates to "at worst #3 on the Wings depth chart this season"
Over the entire season he ranks 4th in ice-time but I didn't mean he's being used as the #3 defenceman. I meant his play has been 3rd best at worst of our defenceman

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02-14-2013, 10:17 AM
  #187
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Over the entire season he ranks 4th in ice-time but I didn't mean he's being used as the #3 defenceman. I meant his play has been 3rd best at worst of our defenceman
Flashy, man, Quincey has been awful with the exception of 2 or 3 games. I can't say for certain, but he's probably getting so much ice time to show management once and for all he's not worth the money or roster spot.

As far as his plus/minus, there are certain players with whom that stat is not indicative of their play... he is most definitely one of them. He's a team best +6, but has 0 points in 13 games, regularly plays sheltered minutes against other teams' 3rd and 4th lines, yet still has almost 2 goals against per 60 minutes (3rd worst behind Kronwall and Lashoff)...

... whereas Lashoff is second worst at -4, yet plays with Kronwall (who is the worst at -6) against other teams' top lines.

(Please note that I'm not saying Lashoff SHOULD be playing on the top-pairing, just making an example of "numbers")

Meh, I just don't see anything from Quincey that shows he needs to be kept. At all.

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02-14-2013, 10:27 AM
  #188
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As far as his plus/minus, there are certain players with whom that stat is not indicative of their play... he is most definitely one of them. He's a team best +6, but has 0 points in 13 games, regularly plays sheltered minutes against other teams' 3rd and 4th lines, yet still has almost 2 goals against per 60 minutes (3rd worst behind Kronwall and Lashoff)...
Quincey is not scoring, but when he is on ice, opponents are not scoring against us = defending well. That's nothing but a good thing. Plus minus comes misleading if you are +100 player, but have -90 at the same time. Plus 10 oh, you are a good defending player, even though you could have the highest amount of minuses on the team. But that not happening at case of Quincey. He has lost his production, to have a better defence. I'll take that any day. When he gets his own zone confidence back in this way, he will start producing something again. Still, he doesn't have to produce in that "Brad Stuart" -mold. Q has been better since Smith injured, they just had horrible chemistry together. I just hope they try any other pairing than that again together, when Brendan comes back.

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02-14-2013, 10:36 AM
  #189
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Quincey is not scoring, but when he is on ice, opponents are not scoring against us = defending well. That's nothing but a good thing. Plus minus comes misleading if you are +100 player, but have -90 at the same time. Plus 10 oh, you are a good defending player, even though you could have the highest amount of minuses on the team. But that not happening at case of Quincey. He has lost his production, to have a better defence. I'll take that any day. When he gets his own zone confidence back in this way, he will start producing something again. Still, he doesn't have to produce in that "Brad Stuart" -mold. Q has been better since Smith injured, they just had horrible chemistry together. I just hope they try any other pairing than that again together, when Brendan comes back.
Teams aren't necessarily scoring when Quincey is on the ice, but watching him like a hawk lately has shown me that Kindl is doing most of the defending while Quincey is usually brainfarting his way around the zone; ESPECIALLY when he has the puck. Cripes man, last night I wanted to throw things at him and Cleary any time they got near anything that resembled a hockey puck.

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02-14-2013, 10:38 AM
  #190
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Teams aren't necessarily scoring when Quincey is on the ice, but watching him like a hawk lately has shown me that Kindl is doing most of the defending while Quincey is usually brainfarting his way around the zone; ESPECIALLY when he has the puck. Cripes man, last night I wanted to throw things at him and Cleary.
This is typical scapegoat hunting. If you really want to see every mistake Quincey is making, you will see them, because you are waiting to see them. Everybody makes mistakes. But the stats won't lie.

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02-14-2013, 10:47 AM
  #191
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This is typical scapegoat hunting. If you really want to see every mistake Quincey is making, you will see them, because you are waiting to see them. Everybody makes mistakes.
No no, I'm looking for anything from him, especially anything redeeming. I'm not one of these people who likes to see players fail. In my opinion, Quincey has been bad so far this year.

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But the stats won't lie.
They also won't necessarily tell the entire truth.

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02-14-2013, 11:00 AM
  #192
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All of our defensemen are roughly the same (equally good or equally crappy, depending how you want to look at it). We don't have a true top pair guy and don't really have any true bottom pair guys (in the classic sense) save maybe Lashoff and Huskins. Even Kindl, who I have had little hope for in the past, could probably play middle pair minutes on about four teams in this league. Wings fans have a big grass is greener complex when it comes to evaluating our defense.

The reason our defense isn't better, is because really good defensemen are damn hard to find. They don't grow on trees. This isn't a difficult concept and is true at literally every level of hockey. We probably won't see a true number one defensemen on this team for several more years. It is a sad fact of life.

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02-14-2013, 11:45 AM
  #193
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All of our defensemen are roughly the same (equally good or equally crappy, depending how you want to look at it). We don't have a true top pair guy and don't really have any true bottom pair guys (in the classic sense) save maybe Lashoff and Huskins. Even Kindl, who I have had little hope for in the past, could probably play middle pair minutes on about four teams in this league. Wings fans have a big grass is greener complex when it comes to evaluating our defense.

The reason our defense isn't better, is because really good defensemen are damn hard to find. They don't grow on trees. This isn't a difficult concept and is true at literally every level of hockey. We probably won't see a true number one defensemen on this team for several more years. It is a sad fact of life.
This sounds about right.

I think Quincey will improve. I think our coaches really need to try to get these guys to do defense first. And for god sake, help kronwall to teach him to watch the play... that 2on1 yesterday was bad bad bad

The defenseman's job in the 2on1 is to take out the pass, or the open guy.

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02-14-2013, 02:52 PM
  #194
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This sounds about right.

I think Quincey will improve. I think our coaches really need to try to get these guys to do defense first. And for god sake, help kronwall to teach him to watch the play... that 2on1 yesterday was bad bad bad

The defenseman's job in the 2on1 is to take out the pass, or the open guy.
See, I think Quincey and Kindl are basically the same guy; Kindl being younger (not by much) and cheaper (by a whole lot) -- and arguably having a higher upside -- makes him, in my opinion, the keeper over Quincey.

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02-14-2013, 04:47 PM
  #195
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See, I think Quincey and Kindl are basically the same guy; Kindl being younger (not by much) and cheaper (by a whole lot) -- and arguably having a higher upside -- makes him, in my opinion, the keeper over Quincey.
If Kindl can beat out Quincey for a roster spot... great. If they are both similar, i hope either plays well enough to beat the other, because that would mean at least one was playing really well

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02-14-2013, 04:51 PM
  #196
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If Kindl can beat out Quincey for a roster spot... great. If they are both similar, i hope either plays well enough to beat the other, because that would mean at least one was playing really well
I'd say Kindl's play has already surpassed Quincey's but I know I'm pretty much alone in that regard.

I rarely see Q use his body. He gives it away more often than anyone else on the team. He's bad at reading the play. For some reason, he falls down when no one is around him. That's happened more than twice already. I saw him literally get twisted around last game and fall because he couldn't keep his balance. I don't see that from any other defender or even player. (Except Cleary who also has a tendency to fall a lot.) So did Leino actually. First stint he was amazing. Second time around, the guy couldn't stay on his skates.

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02-14-2013, 05:05 PM
  #197
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I'd say Kindl's play has already surpassed Quincey's but I know I'm pretty much alone in that regard.
Not totally alone, I can tell you I agree with this. I actually have really liked what I have seen out of Kindl thus far. He is far more physical this year and he played quite well last year in the games he did play, just not with the physicality he has this year.

He isn't better than Quincey that started out in Denver, but he hasn't kept that up.

But I will also say Quincey has been playing better since his disaster start, not up to his salary, but he is coming around and looking a little more comfortable.

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02-14-2013, 05:43 PM
  #198
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Outside of last game Kindl has played very well

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02-14-2013, 05:46 PM
  #199
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I'd say Kindl's play has already surpassed Quincey's but I know I'm pretty much alone in that regard.

I rarely see Q use his body. He gives it away more often than anyone else on the team. He's bad at reading the play. For some reason, he falls down when no one is around him. That's happened more than twice already. I saw him literally get twisted around last game and fall because he couldn't keep his balance. I don't see that from any other defender or even player. (Except Cleary who also has a tendency to fall a lot.) So did Leino actually. First stint he was amazing. Second time around, the guy couldn't stay on his skates.
I agree, the falling down part is very annoying. Kindl has been a nice surprise this season as well.

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02-14-2013, 05:52 PM
  #200
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See, I think Quincey and Kindl are basically the same guy; Kindl being younger (not by much) and cheaper (by a whole lot) -- and arguably having a higher upside -- makes him, in my opinion, the keeper over Quincey.
Agreed.

I see Kindl becoming about the equivalent of Ericsson, just not as good defensively, but better offensively.

You show me the defenseman who doesn't have bad games -- except Lidstrom from 97 to 2004.

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