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Do the Habs need a heavyweight enforcer?

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Old
02-14-2013, 07:45 AM
  #376
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right, if Prust can get near 3M, Clowe won't go below 4M especially for a short term deal.
Then pass.

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02-14-2013, 07:46 AM
  #377
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Armstrong brings a solid defensive game, can agitate and chip in some offense. Some fans ahve no patience and want to give up on him already.

You can't have a 4th line with 3 goons, you need at least 1 guy that can move up to top 9 and preferably one that can kill penalities.
Is anybody arguing for a 4th line with 3 goons?

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02-14-2013, 07:47 AM
  #378
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Bryan Boyle with the Rangers can play and he's a center to boot. Dude is huge.
He doesn't fight and when he does he loses... The habs already have enough players in the bottom 6 willing to fight (and lose).

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02-14-2013, 07:49 AM
  #379
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Armstrong brings a solid defensive game, can agitate and chip in some offense. Some fans ahve no patience and want to give up on him already.

You can't have a 4th line with 3 goons, you need at least 1 guy that can move up to top 9 and preferably one that can kill penalities.
Armstrong hasn't done any agitation or produced.
We don't need 3 goons on the 4th but we don't need 2 Moen either.

It has nothing to do with being impatient. If we didn't have Moen he'd serve a purpose but now he doesn't really. He needs to bring more, like a bunch of others.

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02-14-2013, 07:52 AM
  #380
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Armstrong hasn't done any agitation or produced.
We don't need 3 goons on the 4th but we don't need 2 Moen either.

It has nothing to do with being impatient. If we didn't have Moen he'd serve a purpose but now he doesn't really. He needs to bring more, like a bunch of others.
Armstrong isn't the one costing us games. White has. the DD line has and the defense has(at times).

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02-14-2013, 08:01 AM
  #381
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I like Armstrong as a 4th liner.
I just wish he would play the agitator a little bit more, get under the opponent's skin... like Lapierre. Too bad Maxim thought he was something more than a 4th liner.

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02-14-2013, 09:55 AM
  #382
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And people wonder why Plekanec always starts the season hot and ends up going cold as it advances. In a few years, I bet people will also wonder why Gallagher is less visible as the season advances

The only one who doesn't look like he's affected by this is Subban. It's quite surprising to be honest, but really understandable, since the kid was always known for having a real, real strong character. But then again, as he gets hit and punched after plays, he'll also lose some of his "umph".
And the answer to all these problems is an enforcer? An enforcer on the bench ('cause that's where he'll be for 55 minutes of every game) will shift our smurf dynamic, change the other team's game strategy and ensure our roster plays better and wins more?

Look, to be clear, I'm enjoying reading your arguments. You make some solid points and I agree with you that we need more physical presence on the team. But where you and I disagree is that you want a single enforcer, whereas I want a wider distribution of toughness. The way I see it, one enforcer will not affect the outcome of the game, no matter how big and scary he is. He won't be producing on the ice, he won't be hovering around our skilled players acting as a linebacker, he won't change the other team's game strategy. If the game is close (as it usually is with Boston) he probably won't even get on the ice. His only role will be as a vague deterrent and to be our designated fighter against their designated fighter. And when we're being blown out of a game once or twice a season, he'll be there to give us the famous 'moral victory'.

Your point in favour of this kind of guy is that bullying tactics have become standard practice and we've allowed ourselves to become the league's biggest victim. I think you overstate, based on our pretty decent record so far. But yes, you're right in general, we are vulnerable to bullying when it's used as a strategy, as it is with the Flyers, Sens and now the Leafs. So what's the best response to this? IMO, it has nothing to do with a guy who can punch harder for 30 seconds a game; but it does have everything to do with more guys who can check and hit harder 45 minutes a game. THAT'S how we're bullied. We're out-hit and out-checked. So let's hit and check them back with a couple more big, punishing defensemen and another thundering forward. How often has one of our games been decided or influenced by one of their enforcers? Not even the Toronto game, which was decided six goals before Dolton Orr ever threw a punch. Orr wasn't any kind of deterrent for us; having our own enforcer won't be a deterrent for them.

You want the Habs to stand up for themselves? Me too. You want other teams to respect us? Me too. But I think that cultural shift will happen when more guys on our team are delivering the big hits during the 60 minutes of play, not because one guy is throwing punches while the play is stopped.

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02-14-2013, 10:02 AM
  #383
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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
The way I see it, one enforcer will not affect the outcome of the game
Well, you're wrong. I played some competitive hockey and was a decent winger and agitator, but a horrible fighter (scared the s*** out of me truthfully), I was only as physical as my mind allowed me to be. With an enforcer on my team, I'd be more of a pest. Without one, I behaved myself. Call me a wimp, a *****... I don't care. You simply play different knowing there's a heavyweight to back you up.

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02-14-2013, 10:06 AM
  #384
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Originally Posted by Madevilz View Post
I like Armstrong as a 4th liner.
I just wish he would play the agitator a little bit more, get under the opponent's skin... like Lapierre. Too bad Maxim thought he was something more than a 4th liner.
He is, he's also a great penalty killer.. JM took him off the PK and he was sour about that.

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Old
02-14-2013, 10:28 AM
  #385
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Originally Posted by izzy75 View Post
Well, you're wrong. I played some competitive hockey and was a decent winger and agitator, but a horrible fighter (scared the s*** out of me truthfully), I was only as physical as my mind allowed me to be. With an enforcer on my team, I'd be more of a pest. Without one, I behaved myself. Call me a wimp, a *****... I don't care. You simply play different knowing there's a heavyweight to back you up.
For me, it was the team as a whole that created confidence, not one guy. Enough tough guys cover your back as well as one enforcer.

Hey, I'd love to have everything -- a ton of talented, big players alongside a few scoring stars, plus a huge enforcer doing Darth Vader mind tricks on the other team. I'm not a conscientious objector to enforcers. My problem is we have a limited amount of seats on the bench and limited resources on the roster. We just can't afford to waste a seat on a secondary psychological boost like an enforcer.

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02-14-2013, 10:46 AM
  #386
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Originally Posted by Lshap View Post
And the answer to all these problems is an enforcer? An enforcer on the bench ('cause that's where he'll be for 55 minutes of every game) will shift our smurf dynamic, change the other team's game strategy and ensure our roster plays better and wins more?

Look, to be clear, I'm enjoying reading your arguments. You make some solid points and I agree with you that we need more physical presence on the team. But where you and I disagree is that you want a single enforcer, whereas I want a wider distribution of toughness. The way I see it, one enforcer will not affect the outcome of the game, no matter how big and scary he is. He won't be producing on the ice, he won't be hovering around our skilled players acting as a linebacker, he won't change the other team's game strategy. If the game is close (as it usually is with Boston) he probably won't even get on the ice. His only role will be as a vague deterrent and to be our designated fighter against their designated fighter. And when we're being blown out of a game once or twice a season, he'll be there to give us the famous 'moral victory'.

Your point in favour of this kind of guy is that bullying tactics have become standard practice and we've allowed ourselves to become the league's biggest victim. I think you overstate, based on our pretty decent record so far. But yes, you're right in general, we are vulnerable to bullying when it's used as a strategy, as it is with the Flyers, Sens and now the Leafs. So what's the best response to this? IMO, it has nothing to do with a guy who can punch harder for 30 seconds a game; but it does have everything to do with more guys who can check and hit harder 45 minutes a game. THAT'S how we're bullied. We're out-hit and out-checked. So let's hit and check them back with a couple more big, punishing defensemen and another thundering forward. How often has one of our games been decided or influenced by one of their enforcers? Not even the Toronto game, which was decided six goals before Dolton Orr ever threw a punch. Orr wasn't any kind of deterrent for us; having our own enforcer won't be a deterrent for them.

You want the Habs to stand up for themselves? Me too. You want other teams to respect us? Me too. But I think that cultural shift will happen when more guys on our team are delivering the big hits during the 60 minutes of play, not because one guy is throwing punches while the play is stopped.
I agree with you. And some depth in the system with several guys who can stand up for themselves is the ideal way to go.

That being said, short-term, in the mean time, the other teams in our division are counting on an enforcer. And it's essential IMHO that we get one to at least stand up to those monsters.

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Old
02-14-2013, 10:58 AM
  #387
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Armstrong isn't the one costing us games. White has. the DD line has and the defense has(at times).
Armstrong isn't supposed to cost us games, that doesn't mean he's doing a great job.
Not hurting us =/= Helping us.

I also think we have to stop with this ''White costs us games''. It's big BS. Like a sour loser looking to throw the blame on someone.
White wasn't in the line up versus TB, yet we had no problem letting a 3-0 lead slip away with 6min left in the game. Shall we blame him for that too??

Everybody on this board made fun of Laraque because he didn't want to drop the gloves recklessly and beat someone up since it would lead to a penalty. How many times did we hear ''we got to send a fax'' crap?? People were more than willing to see him drop them and beat on someone, actually they wanted it. Most said it was worth the penalty, that at least it sent a message.

Now White does it, and he gets crapped on, to the point where he is to blame for the entire loss. I mean, White is sticking up for his teammates, he's sending a message that we don't care if we get a penalty, you do something stupid, you'll get punches thrown at you. How does our team respond? They can't kill the penalty, the coach benches him, and then ridicules him in the media. Great Job.

I applaud White. I want him in the line up. He didn't play bad, he's smart defensively, he crashes the net, he's in the opposition's face, he fights and he hits hard. I don't care that he drops his gloves and pounds away Ott's face. Ott was trying to intimidate Gallagher all game, let him get a beating, that's fine. The rest of the team should stick up for White, not push him aside. Not to mention, he also scored a goal.

White takes a penalty for a good cause, you can argue it's stupid, but still, it's for a good cause. You kill the damn power play, swing back all the momentum your way and go for the win. If you don't, it's easy to blame the guy that took the penalty, but the guys on the PK are there to kill it, not let a goal in.
You win and lose as a team. White doesn't deserves the crap he got.

Armstrong brings nothing, or at least hasn't so far. We can easily replace him on our PK, and it's not like we're excelling there. Other than that, he hasn't agitated the opposition once, he hasn't delivered one hard check, he hasn't created much of anything offensively. If he did those things, I'd be all for keeping him in. But at this point, I rather have White in.

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02-14-2013, 11:05 AM
  #388
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Kassian clears per Dreger.

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02-14-2013, 11:06 AM
  #389
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I'm really surprised he cleared.

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02-14-2013, 11:07 AM
  #390
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I'm really surprised he cleared.
Really?

He's not a very good player.

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02-14-2013, 11:10 AM
  #391
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Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
Kassian clears per Dreger.
Well... I guess that answers the questions. Bergevin and Therrien want 4 lines with players who can play hockey.

If it's their logic, I don't share it, but I still respect it. That being said, I hope to God we're going to have some kind of success against our division this season. Or else, you won't have any choice but to look back at why they beat us, and how they did so.

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02-14-2013, 11:10 AM
  #392
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No one wants the KASSSASIN then!

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02-14-2013, 11:10 AM
  #393
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mmmm! If 30 teams with a 23 man roster are not interested.....

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02-14-2013, 11:10 AM
  #394
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Kassian clears per Dreger.
Damn

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02-14-2013, 11:24 AM
  #395
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not shocked he cleared at all

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02-14-2013, 11:24 AM
  #396
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Armstrong isn't supposed to cost us games, that doesn't mean he's doing a great job.
Not hurting us =/= Helping us.

I also think we have to stop with this ''White costs us games''. It's big BS. Like a sour loser looking to throw the blame on someone.
White wasn't in the line up versus TB, yet we had no problem letting a 3-0 lead slip away with 6min left in the game. Shall we blame him for that too??

Everybody on this board made fun of Laraque because he didn't want to drop the gloves recklessly and beat someone up since it would lead to a penalty. How many times did we hear ''we got to send a fax'' crap?? People were more than willing to see him drop them and beat on someone, actually they wanted it. Most said it was worth the penalty, that at least it sent a message.

Now White does it, and he gets crapped on, to the point where he is to blame for the entire loss. I mean, White is sticking up for his teammates, he's sending a message that we don't care if we get a penalty, you do something stupid, you'll get punches thrown at you. How does our team respond? They can't kill the penalty, the coach benches him, and then ridicules him in the media. Great Job.

I applaud White. I want him in the line up. He didn't play bad, he's smart defensively, he crashes the net, he's in the opposition's face, he fights and he hits hard. I don't care that he drops his gloves and pounds away Ott's face. Ott was trying to intimidate Gallagher all game, let him get a beating, that's fine. The rest of the team should stick up for White, not push him aside. Not to mention, he also scored a goal.

White takes a penalty for a good cause, you can argue it's stupid, but still, it's for a good cause. You kill the damn power play, swing back all the momentum your way and go for the win. If you don't, it's easy to blame the guy that took the penalty, but the guys on the PK are there to kill it, not let a goal in.
You win and lose as a team. White doesn't deserves the crap he got.

Armstrong brings nothing, or at least hasn't so far. We can easily replace him on our PK, and it's not like we're excelling there. Other than that, he hasn't agitated the opposition once, he hasn't delivered one hard check, he hasn't created much of anything offensively. If he did those things, I'd be all for keeping him in. But at this point, I rather have White in.
Agreed. White is the team whipping boy right now. He did what he thought he was expected to do and has been nailed to the pressbox for it. Armstrong has been slow, intermittently uninvolved, and not a physical deterrent whatsoever.

As you said a timely penalty kill or a successful Budaj freeze of the puck with 1.9 seconds to go takes the scapegoat label off White. He's a useful player, which I don't see in Armstrong. Not to mention this year White has won almost 2 out of 3 faceoffs there is potential for him to be a specialist in this area.

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02-14-2013, 11:26 AM
  #397
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Really?

He's not a very good player.
But.... he fights. HE FIGHTS!!!!!!!!!!!!

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02-14-2013, 11:32 AM
  #398
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But.... he fights. HE FIGHTS!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well, at least Gorges would not have to get laughed at to drop the gloves against a 250 pounds monster. I can't believe how people underestimate the effect this can have on a team. Lucic single-handedly broke our season in the centennial year. And don't tell me "Laraque was there". Laraque was worth a pile of turds, both on the enforcing and hockey aspect.

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02-14-2013, 11:32 AM
  #399
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No surprise 29 GM's took a pass on him, even for free.

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02-14-2013, 11:33 AM
  #400
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I guess Bergevin thinks we don't need one

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