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Acq/ Rost. Bldg./ Cap Part XVII

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02-14-2013, 12:42 PM
  #901
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Originally Posted by Ovechkins Wodka View Post
If O'Reilly would sign for 4.5 do you really think he would still be holding out?
Players missing this much of a season to holdout have pretty bad track records of under producing across all sports
My impression is that he's being offered Duchene's deal. He was Colorado's top C last year, both offensively and defensively, and I'm guessing he feels really slighted by the fact that they're still expecting him to come in as a 3C. Lack of opportunity for upward mobility drives people mad in every line of work including sports.

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02-14-2013, 12:43 PM
  #902
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Or barring that use the $5 mil to sign some other center in UFA.
Again, the $5M rumor was denied by O'Reilly's agent. Patrice Bergeron's second contract is the likely comparable.

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I just don't like the idea of giving up young assets ATM. we aren't exactly chock full of them. We got a couple top notch guys and then a bunch of long shots.
And the Caps would be getting back a top-notch, young asset. Ryan O'Reilly is 21.

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In a salary cap world its important to keep churning out cheap young players that can take the place of higher paid UFAs that we let walk b/c we have to.
Absolutely. But that shouldn't preclude you from using a top prospect to acquire a top player, especially when that player still has four more seasons of service before the expensive UFA years.

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02-14-2013, 12:43 PM
  #903
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O'Rielly is a bum.. Just another Wolski.
and this is based on...

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02-14-2013, 12:43 PM
  #904
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After reading TX's view to my suggestion of Lucic being this teams missing piece .... I next thought of Evander Kane and how he would be another ideal option. Big, physical but also has a legit scoring touch.

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02-14-2013, 12:44 PM
  #905
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I like O'Reilly. But if you have both him and Laich making $4 million, that's alot of money tied up in jack of all trades type players.

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02-14-2013, 12:45 PM
  #906
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After reading TX's view to my suggestion of Lucic being this teams missing piece .... I next thought of Evander Kane and how he would be another ideal option. Big, physical but also has a legit scoring touch.
Doubt he is moved. But the Jets moving out of our division might help.

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02-14-2013, 12:46 PM
  #907
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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
and this is based on...
Wolski had better numbers at the start of his career with the Avalanche'. Why would you pay a guy 4m when you could find the same guy for 600k. That is cap appreciation.

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02-14-2013, 12:47 PM
  #908
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Or barring that use the $5 mil to sign some other center in UFA.
There won't be a better one than Ribeiro aside from Getzlaf and he'll likely command considerably more (if he even makes it to UFA). The two sides should be able to come to a reasonable agreement, though term may be a sticking point. I wouldn't really want to sign, say, Weiss at $4.5-5M just to save a million or so. Weiss would likely command more term anyhow.
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Only one more season of Schultz before UFA. No reason to buy him out and have his cap hit stick around for longer. If you really need to ditch him, put him on waivers and hope someone bites.
Compliance buyout? If he's not a top 4D then it would make sense to ditch him and free up space so that they can secure one.

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02-14-2013, 12:48 PM
  #909
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Wolski had better numbers at the start of his career with the Avalanche'. Why would you pay a guy 4m when you could find the same guy for 600k. That is cap appreciation.
I really don't even know where to start with this post. I'll just save it for Brad

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02-14-2013, 12:49 PM
  #910
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I like O'Reilly. But if you have both him and Laich making $4 million, that's alot of money tied up in jack of all trades type players.
If that's what we call very good defensive centers with 60+ point upside, then no, it really isn't. And there's only one of them mentioned in that sentence anyway.

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02-14-2013, 12:51 PM
  #911
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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
I really don't even know where to start with this post. I'll just save it for Brad
And that is based on..

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02-14-2013, 12:51 PM
  #912
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Compliance buyout? If he's not a top 4D then it would make sense to ditch him and free up space so that they can secure one.
Forgot about those. Heh. If management feels the extra cash will help them shore up some areas for next season, might as well buy out the last year of his deal.

Only downside is that would mean we only have three defensemen under contract (Green, Orlov, and Carlson). Alzner and Kundratek both UFA. Poti, Erskine, Hillen, and Hamrlik all UFA.

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02-14-2013, 12:52 PM
  #913
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I'd put more money on Schultz getting an extension than a compliance buyout. Ted doesn't like to waste money and GMGM doesn't like to let his drafted darlings walk.

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02-14-2013, 12:53 PM
  #914
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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
Laich is a "good" player. O'Reilly is a "better" player, at a much younger age too. Between the two of them O'Reilly really is a no-brainer in every way, unless you consider community service to be the #1 indicator of whether a player should be on your team like CCF does. Even then I'm sure O'Reilly has a big heart.

There's a huge difference between Laich and Semin, Briere and Hartnell. Laich is a bloody 10ESG a season tweener who has never had a season in which he was exceptional offensively, defensively or physically. He's not even a particularly solid utility winger since he doesn't have a mean/physical streak or good hitting/board battle ability required for that role. His biggest claim to usefulness is "versatility". Well, O'Reilly is pretty damn versatile too.

Dubinsky has been pretty underwhelming for a while now, but at least he's a pretty good fighter for a top 6 player.

Is being a "key cog" on a team with our recent playoff history supposed to be a compliment?

Horton and Clowe don't particularly agitate. Horton himself is quite overrated and not really a guy I'd go to as a first choice, especially considering he'd cost north of 5. Clowe does have some agitator tendencies, but he's mostly a great guy to have to protect your agitators, like how Lucic/Chara/Thornton/McQuaid protect Marchand and Getzlaf protects Perry.
Laich is underrated. He can play every forward position and even can play D if we are short!

He is strong on both the PK and PP. He's a responsible two way player that can play up and down the lineup.

Not many players in the NHL that versatile. Verstility is an important skill so don't undervalue it. He's a good vocal presence and has been here from day 1 of the firesale year.

I've never seen him take a shift off either.

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Originally Posted by ChibiPooky View Post
Again, the $5M rumor was denied by O'Reilly's agent. Patrice Bergeron's second contract is the likely comparable.

And the Caps would be getting back a top-notch, young asset. Ryan O'Reilly is 21.

Absolutely. But that shouldn't preclude you from using a top prospect to acquire a top player, especially when that player still has four more seasons of service before the expensive UFA years.
OReilly from the limited I've seen and all I've heard is a good 2nd line center on a good team and a 3rd line center on a very good team.

We are now thin at wing.

Again it would break down like this. We wouldn't be able to sign Ribeiro. We'd lose a roster player (lets just say MJ since most everyone thinks he's trash now) and a top prospect (lets say Forsberg).

I don't see that as a deal we can afford to make.

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02-14-2013, 12:53 PM
  #915
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And that is based on..
Have you watch either player play this sport called "hockey", at all, for the past 3 years?

...yeah, it's based on that.

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02-14-2013, 12:57 PM
  #916
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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
Have you watch either player play this sport called "hockey", at all, for the past 3 years?

...yeah, it's based on that.
Your evidence does not correlate in words, but in stats that is winning .

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02-14-2013, 12:57 PM
  #917
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Laich is underrated. He can play every forward position and even can play D if we are short!

He is strong on both the PK and PP. He's a responsible two way player that can play up and down the lineup.

Not many players in the NHL that versatile. Verstility is an important skill so don't undervalue it. He's a good vocal presence and has been here from day 1 of the firesale year.

I've never seen him take a shift off either.
Dude, half our forwards could wing it in every forward position. Which is what he does. He plays like a 2.5 million 3rd line C and a 3-3.5 million winger on a good day. Being able to play D in a pinch is completely useless in 95% of real games.

He's not strong on the PP. He reaped the benefits of our insane offense back in the day but he's not a particularly good screener even though he won't shut up about. He's good at defense and on the PK but nowhere near elite. O'Reilly is much better at both.

Versatility is only important as long as it doesn't take away from quality.

His vocal presence has contributed dick and a half to this team. If anything it may have pissed our stars off, the ones he leeched that contract from. If you want a real "leader" look no further than Alzner.

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02-14-2013, 12:59 PM
  #918
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The problem with O'Reilly is that not only would we have to give up 2 assets (roster player and top prospect from what I've heard) but that he wants 5 million per.
Once again, the $5M rumor was shot down by his agent. And how is it a problem to give up a roster player when the Caps are at 25/23 roster spots with everyone healthy?

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So basically next year we'd slot him in Ribeiro's position and be short a prospect and roster player.
I would slot him at 3C, which looks like a scoring line in Oates' system. Try to keep Ribeiro.

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Colorado is not just gonna give him away for spare parts either.

Why not keep our assets and use that money to sign Ribeiro if you want to go that route?
Because he's better than our assets. He's an upgrade over Laich and a significant upgrade over Johansson. I don't necessarily like the appeal to authority, but one NHL player called him a top 5 two-way player in the league, and apparently most GMs are shocked that Colorado would even consider moving him.

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We are thin enough in our prospect pool after so many graduates that I'd rather not lose Forsberg, Wilson or Kuznetsov.
Agreed. I am really excited about those 3 in particular.

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Outside of those 3 I doubt Colorado would listen if we offer some other prospect thats not top notch.
I don't know if the Caps have the horses to get him. I do know that I would put my best offer on the table to try. Players like O'Reilly aren't frequently available, especially when they're still under team control.


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02-14-2013, 12:59 PM
  #919
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Your evidence does not correlate in words, but in stats that is winning.
So just for the record, your comparison O'REILLY and WOLSKI is based on their offensive production at the beginning of their careers?

Good to know you haven't watched either of them play for any significant time at all.

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02-14-2013, 01:00 PM
  #920
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If that's what we call very good defensive centers with 60+ point upside, then no, it really isn't. And there's only one of them mentioned in that sentence anyway.
I'm not trying to to down play his potential. It's the pessimist in me saying, "What if he doesn't continue to develop his offensive game?"

I have no issue bringing in players who are better than what we have. I think he'd be an upgrade over most/all of our bottom 6 players. My main issue with this team, for a long time now, is the allocation of salary. We overpay for depth.

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02-14-2013, 01:00 PM
  #921
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Doubt he is moved. But the Jets moving out of our division might help.
Yea, I was just spit-balling those who I felt would fill a big void on this team. I also read that the ignorant racially charged fans in the Peg aren't doing themselves any favors in trying to keep him.

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02-14-2013, 01:01 PM
  #922
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Dude, half our forwards could wing it in every forward position. Which is what he does. He plays like a 2.5 million 3rd line C and a 3-3.5 million winger on a good day. Being able to play D in a pinch is completely useless in 95% of real games.

He's not strong on the PP. He reaped the benefits of our insane offense back in the day but he's not a particularly good screener even though he won't shut up about. He's good at defense and on the PK but nowhere near elite. O'Reilly is much better at both.

Versatility is only important as long as it doesn't take away from quality.

His vocal presence has contributed dick and a half to this team. If anything it may have pissed our stars off, the ones he leeched that contract from. If you want a real "leader" look no further than Alzner.
OK lets do it this way since we are talking about ROR here.

What is your proposed trade for him???

Keep in mind we'd necessarily say goodbye to Ribeiro in the off season if we make this trade. So it breaks down to:

ROR for Ribeiro+(roster player)+(top prospect)

Fill in the blanks and keep in mind we will not be the only bidder as there are teams with much more to offer. So don't try to put in any trash or high priced contract. If CO isn't going to pay ROR they aren't going to take a contract from us either.

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02-14-2013, 01:04 PM
  #923
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I'm not trying to to down play his potential. It's the pessimist in me saying, "What if he doesn't continue to develop his offensive game?"

I have no issue bringing in players who are better than what we have. I think he'd be an upgrade over most/all of our bottom 6 players. My main issue with this team, for a long time now, is the allocation of salary. We overpay for depth.
I mean, he was Colorado's best center last year at 21. I'd hope to god he's an upgrade over "most" of our bottom 6 players.

Pretty much all negatives of getting him are based on him taking a complete nosedive in his development, even though he's the type of player that's by far the safest to project (super hard working/gritty/etc). Yet for some reason our "futures" are super untouchable because THEY are gonna pan out, how could they not.

Even if he plateaus he's still basically Zajac, give or take.

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02-14-2013, 01:04 PM
  #924
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I would slot him at 3C, which looks like a scoring line in Oates' system. Try to keep Ribeiro.

don't know if the Caps have the horses to get him. I do know that I would put my best offer on the table to try. Players like O'Reilly aren't frequently available, especially when they're still under team control.
I don't know how we could afford to keep both Ribeiro and ROR. That would most likely be impossible. Even if for some reason we could pull it off we certainly would not be able to address our big needs of top 6 scoring winger and top 4 physical D. And thats assuming goaltending won't need to be addressed in the offseason.

We don't have the horses to get him and are not in a position to. Thats part of the argument against it.

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02-14-2013, 01:06 PM
  #925
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So just for the record, your comparison O'REILLY and WOLSKI is based on their offensive production at the beginning of their careers?

Good to know you haven't watched either of them play for any significant time at all.
O'Reilly and Wolski are good comparison, why would you want another overpaid Laich on this team. Did you ever watch the movie moneyball- stats are a good field of vision compared to personal defensive play. Baseball and hockey may not be the same sports but teams are having success just looking at stats. Maybe you want to make O'Rielly a Dustin Byfulien but that's another conversation.

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