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Phoenix LXXII: Send in the Clowns

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Old
02-13-2013, 08:15 PM
  #101
OthmarAmmann
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Originally Posted by CasualFan View Post
Anyway, if you are so inclined, over the summer there was a BOH exercise to determine what legitimate arena management costs look like. You can pick up the thread starting at #986 and follow it through #114 on LX: Pinocchio's Future. Or, if you're sane enough to not want to wade through all that, BarneyG brilliantly summarized how consultants like Hocking and Hunden create fictional results.
What I've always liked about that particular Thomas L Hocking study is that it implies the best course of action is not in fact the AMF, but rather the demolition of the arena.

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02-13-2013, 09:19 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Thomas L View Post
What I've always liked about that particular Thomas L Hocking study is that it implies the best course of action is not in fact the AMF, but rather the demolition of the arena.
For the final game, they could tear off the roof and exterior, leaving just the rink and the seats and play a special final game with as many periods as the ice lasts for before it melts in the desert heat.

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02-13-2013, 09:44 PM
  #103
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I don't believe that's an accurate description.

I think the battle Rim Jim faced was being turned down by the NHL as an owner. The court ruled it could not force the NHL to accept someone into the club that they didn't approve of as an owner. There was a BOG meeting prior to the hearings where the governors voted on Balsillie, Reinsdorf and maybe IEH. Only Reinsdorf was approved as a potential owner.

Moyes was allowed to put a failing asset into BK, despite the NHL claiming he had not right to do so. The court never actually ruled on this point, but proceeded with a bankruptcy regardless-- so approval without delving into technicalities?

The court also said that Moyes did not have a right to sell a territory that did not belong to him. (Hamiltion) There was still some wiggle room here too however since the court heard witness estimates on the value of the market in Hamilton. A buyer would have to pay for Phoenix + the difference in value if Hamilton was worth more.

They never actually had to get to addressing that point legally since the BOG turned down Balsillie as a potential owner.
Balsilie was turned down as an owner because of his desire to move the team. If you go back and read the judge's opinion the judge said something to the effect that he assumed if Balsillie was planning to keep the team in AZ the league wouldn't have a problem with him. Also it wasn't that Moyes couldn't sell the territory that didn't belong to him it was that you couldn't use bankruptcy to supercede the franchisees rule. It specifically sited moving a McDonalds franchise to NYC as an example of something you couldn't do.

It was spelled out in Baum's ruling which I am too lazy to Google because there are so many different rulings in that case.

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02-14-2013, 12:05 AM
  #104
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Balsilie was turned down as an owner because of his desire to move the team. If you go back and read the judge's opinion the judge said something to the effect that he assumed if Balsillie was planning to keep the team in AZ the league wouldn't have a problem with him. Also it wasn't that Moyes couldn't sell the territory that didn't belong to him it was that you couldn't use bankruptcy to supercede the franchisees rule. It specifically sited moving a McDonalds franchise to NYC as an example of something you couldn't do.

It was spelled out in Baum's ruling which I am too lazy to Google because there are so many different rulings in that case.
I don't want to rehash old history but Baum really erred in that ruling. His first and only duty as a bankrupcy Judge was to protect credditors not the business model of North American pro-sports. He should have at least forced the NHL to match or get the hell out of the way.

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02-14-2013, 06:32 AM
  #105
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I don't want to rehash old history but Baum really erred in that ruling. His first and only duty as a bankrupcy Judge was to protect credditors not the business model of North American pro-sports. He should have at least forced the NHL to match or get the hell out of the way.
I'm not a law talking guy, but I disagree with the idea that the BK court could/should have allowed the team to move. The creditors knew who the customer was and what industry it was in, just from that basic information they would have been able to figure out that there would be some constraints on the business related to location. In this case it's seller/supplier beware.

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02-14-2013, 06:38 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by madhi19 View Post
I don't want to rehash old history but Baum really erred in that ruling. His first and only duty as a bankrupcy Judge was to protect credditors not the business model of North American pro-sports. He should have at least forced the NHL to match or get the hell out of the way.
Exactly he should of said, you're offering 250 it's yours. What happens after he gets the team wasn't Baums concern. What would happen next is a battle for JB the league and another court.

I liken it to if a guy buys a gun at an auction. When he walks out the cops take the weapon away because he is banned from owning guns, it wasn't the auctioneers problem and the guy knew owning the gun came with problems.

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02-14-2013, 08:37 AM
  #107
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Anyone want to tear that apart? Was Glendale not previously paying for the operating cost of the arena? If so, that would explain why the Coyotes were 15+ million in the hole every year, regardless of what they did.

http://joyceclarkunfiltered.com/
Where's Evil Doctor's JPG of a rotary when we need it?

I can't believe anybody's still following this tack. My full analysis was somewhere in June when the Hocking and Pollack reports showed up on the COG website; that wasn't in a megathread (though I referred to it at least a few times after that, as in the post linked by CF).

Here's the jist of it. If you disagree with it you might as well disagree with everything that's ever been taught in a business school.

Scenario 1: arena sits empty all year
Revenues 0
Event costs 0
Fixed costs 4 million
Total operating costs = 0 + 4 = 4 million
Net loss = 4 million

Scenario 2: arena regularly holds events
Revenues 15 million
Event costs 10 million
Fixed costs 4 million
Total operating costs = 10 + 4 = 14 million
Net profit = 1 million

The actual numbers don't matter. The point is that the Hocking study (and especially those relaying it, such as Joyce "Beavis" Clark) is implicitly arguing that the AMF should cover total operating costs. That's only correct if the arena owner also keeps the operating revenue, but the arena manager always kept the operating revenue in any proposed lease.

In other words, Joyce "Beavis" Clark is currently suggesting the following for the arena manager:

Revenues 15 million
Event costs 10 million
Fixed costs 4 million
AMF 14 million
Total net operating costs = 10 + 4 - 14 = 0
Net profit = 15 million

Looks good to me..

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02-14-2013, 09:26 AM
  #108
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Here's the jist of it. If you disagree with it you might as well disagree with everything that's ever been taught in a business school.
I appreciate that Team Beavis presents their mangled version of this as "unfiltered, real numbers". Nothing could be more precious than an imbecile butchering such an elementary level concept and then calling the erroneous output a "fact".

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02-14-2013, 10:22 AM
  #109
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Still not one word from the Mainstream hockey media regarding the reemergence of the clowns ! Fool me once, twice, three times the hockey world is no longer listening to the chatter emanating from Glendale.
We have one now, though I wouldn't say the author "beleves" anything is happening. Some interesting quotes...

Quote:
Hulsizer will only be interested in taking another look at the Coyotes if someone can bring him a finished deal, complete with an arena lease with the suburban City of Glendale that pays enough to make it sensible to own a team that loses more than $20-million (all currency U.S.) a year.

...

So LeBlanc, in turn, put in a call to new Glendale Mayor Jerry Weiers. They plan to meet and LeBlanc will see if there is any reason to head once more into the breach. Confirmation of this came from LeBlanc, who indicated the prospects of success are such that this is not exactly on his front burner.

...

Here’s what Weiers said of that possibility: “I can guarantee you there is not the same will on council to do the same deal with anyone else.”
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...medium=twitter

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02-14-2013, 12:42 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by JimAnchower View Post
We have one now, though I wouldn't say the author "beleves" anything is happening. Some interesting quotes...



http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...medium=twitter
Yes, it sounds like Hulz is interested in pretty close to the same type of package that was offered before (my speculation), and so far the new mayor has been consistent in saying that sort of deal probably won't happen.

Sounds like Hulz is saying (probably for media) "Oh I'm interested, but I'm going to expect lots of goodies in return for "helping out"

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02-14-2013, 12:44 PM
  #111
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Anyway, all the BK docs are public records and available free of charge. There were many depositions and declarations. Shumway's probably provides the best summary of the timeline: http://docs.bmcgroup.com/phoenixcoyo...k-9488_110.pdf
Do you know off hand if the court transcript where Baum "double checks" with Glendale's decision to go with the NHL exists? I would like to re-read this and all I have been able to find is various news and twitter interpretations of what was said... not what was actually said. thanks! enjoy your posts CF.

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Old
02-14-2013, 01:02 PM
  #112
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Coyotes announce new ticket package.... It's unique for sure.
Quote:
COYOTES INTRODUCE GOALDEN TICKET PACKAGE



FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:

Thursday, February 14, 2013



GLENDALE, ARIZONA --- The Phoenix Coyotes announced today a new ticket package called the GOALden Ticket. The GOALden Ticket allows fans to purchase one of two ticket packages to attend anywhere from one to 10 of the Coyotes final 2012-13 regular season home games in lower level seats (regularly priced at $75) at Jobing.com Arena. The package will go on sale to the public on Monday, February 18.

By purchasing the first ticket package for $100, a fan will receive five (5) goals on their GOALden Ticket. Beginning on March 9 versus the Dallas Stars, fans will be able to see up to 10 Coyotes home games until the team gives up five (5) goals at Jobing.com Arena. Once that happens, the GOALden Ticket is void.

The second ticket package provides the fan with 25 goals on their GOALden Ticket for the price of $250. Beginning on March 9 versus the Dallas Stars, fans will have an opportunity to attend up to 10 Coyotes home games until the team gives up 25 goals at Jobing.com Arena. Once this occurs, the GOALden Ticket is void.

As a bonus, if the Coyotes should record a shutout during any of the final 10 regular season home games from March 9 to April 26, during which their GOALden ticket is still valid, purchasers of the GOALden Ticket package will receive a free additional ticket to the Coyotes Fan Appreciation Night on April 26 versus the Colorado Avalanche. This offer if only valid for one Coyotes shutout during this time period.


GOALden Ticket Packages

Price Expires After…
$100 5 goals are scored at Jobing.com Arena
$250 25 goals are scored at Jobing.com Arena

GOALden Ticket Rules:

1. The GOALden ticket must be purchased no later than March 8, 2013.

Official goal tally includes only:
- Goals scored at HOME games played at Jobing.com Arena between March 9 and April 26, 2013. All tickets expire after April 26, 2013.

- Only goals scored in regulation and overtime will count towards the total. Individual shootout goals and goals awarded to the winner of a shootout are not applicable.

The $100 ticket expires once the 5th goal is allowed.
The $250 ticket expires once the 25th goal is allowed.
The GOALden ticket does not come with playoff priority.
To receive the April 26th bonus tickets for a “shutout” you must be present (scanned in) at the game. A “shutout” is recorded if the score is 0-0 at the conclusion of the overtime period. Shootout goals do not apply.


GOALden Ticket Package Games:

· Saturday, March 9 versus Dallas Stars
· Tuesday, March 12 versus Los Angeles Kings
· Thursday, March 21 versus Vancouver Canucks
· Monday, March 25 versus Detroit Red Wings
· Tuesday, April 2 versus Los Angeles Kings
· Thursday, April 4 versus Detroit Red Wings
· Saturday, April 6 versus Colorado Avalanche
· Monday, April 15 versus San Jose Sharks
· Wednesday, April 24 versus San Jose Sharks
· Friday, April 26 versus the Colorado Avalanche



By purchasing a package, fans will receive a packet in the mail that will include their GOALden Ticket (in pass form to wear around neck) and the Official Rules & Regulations around using your GOALden Ticket. Fans will also receive merchandise and concession specials at Jobing.com Arena. For more information regarding the Coyotes GOALden Ticket Package, please call 480-563-PUCK (7825) or visit www.phoenixcoyotes.com/goaldenticket.





-COYOTES-

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02-14-2013, 01:10 PM
  #113
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Do you know off hand if the court transcript where Baum "double checks" with Glendale's decision to go with the NHL exists? I would like to re-read this and all I have been able to find is various news and twitter interpretations of what was said... not what was actually said. thanks! enjoy your posts CF.
Thanks. Yes, the transcript is avail but it would be inappropriate for me to use PACER access to copy/paste it to the BOH forum.

http://www.azb.uscourts.gov/Document...ipt_Notice.pdf

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02-14-2013, 01:18 PM
  #114
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Coyotes announce new ticket package.... It's unique for sure.
Mad rush by the NHL to get as many dollars in the door before they turn off the lights. Really makes me feel good that I pay over $100 a ticket per game for lower bowl seats. Oh well, I'm going to enjoy the last few home games before I switch back to my original team and follow the Hawks again (from 2000 miles away).

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02-14-2013, 01:24 PM
  #115
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Coyotes announce new ticket package.... It's unique for sure.
So now we are selling tickets specifically based on team performance... interesting.

I would like to see all teams do this. IE: If you go to a game and the home team loses by more than 3 goals, meaning they sucked tonight, everyone gets a refund.

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02-14-2013, 01:28 PM
  #116
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Mad rush by the NHL to get as many dollars in the door before they turn off the lights. Really makes me feel good that I pay over $100 a ticket per game for lower bowl seats. Oh well, I'm going to enjoy the last few home games before I switch back to my original team and follow the Hawks again (from 2000 miles away).
That's nothing...my (unnamed) business just announced $20 upper-level and $50 lower-level tickets.

Let the 'moving sale' discounting begin!

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Old
02-14-2013, 01:37 PM
  #117
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So now we are selling tickets specifically based on team performance... interesting.

I would like to see all teams do this. IE: If you go to a game and the home team loses by more than 3 goals, meaning they sucked tonight, everyone gets a refund.
They did the "We win, you win" promo last year on certain crappy draws. If the Coyotes beat the bad draw, you got a ticket to another game. This is just a novel way to get people to root for the team and be invested in the outcome. The $75 seats, mostly the ends, also need filling. With the way the team has been playing, the $250 ticket is a good bet to see all 10 games.

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02-14-2013, 01:52 PM
  #118
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As an aside, article about one of the foundational characters in our sordid tale (presented without comment (for now at least)):

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/stor...illie-rim.html

Quote:
Former BlackBerry chairman and co-chief executive Jim Balsillie no longer holds any shares of the Canadian company he once helped run, according to filings with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission.

The regulatory filing didn't say when during 2012 he sold his shares in the in the Waterloo, Ont.-based company or for how much.

At the end of 2011, while he was still co-CEO of what was then called Research In Motion, Balsillie held 26.8 million shares, or 5.1 per cent of the company. At the time, BlackBerry stock traded at just under $15 on the TSX, meaning his shares would have been worth $397 million.

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02-14-2013, 02:04 PM
  #119
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So now we are selling tickets specifically based on team performance... interesting.

I would like to see all teams do this. IE: If you go to a game and the home team loses by more than 3 goals, meaning they sucked tonight, everyone gets a refund.
Just might lead to more goalie pulls near end of game to try and get to two goals or below

I realize they usually pull the goalie, but can you hear managment calling down during a timeout? "We're down 3 goals, we need to get at least one so we don't have to give up tickets for the next game!"

I'm referring to ANY team here,not just the Yotes

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02-14-2013, 02:12 PM
  #120
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I don't wanna make a comparison, but...
Quote:
· Saturday, March 9 versus Dallas Stars
· Tuesday, March 12 versus Los Angeles Kings
· Thursday, March 21 versus Vancouver Canucks
· Monday, March 25 versus Detroit Red Wings
· Tuesday, April 2 versus Los Angeles Kings
· Thursday, April 4 versus Detroit Red Wings
· Saturday, April 6 versus Colorado Avalanche
· Monday, April 15 versus San Jose Sharks
· Wednesday, April 24 versus San Jose Sharks
· Friday, April 26 versus the Colorado Avalanche
In Toronto, New York and Montreal (if such promotion could exist would be) againt :

Blue Jackets, Islanders, Panthers, ...

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Old
02-14-2013, 02:25 PM
  #121
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I don't wanna make a comparison, but...
It's a shortened season, and the Coyotes have already played 8 home games. Not a lot of room to be picky about what games the ticket qualifies for. In fact, that's simply the last 10 home games.

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02-14-2013, 02:28 PM
  #122
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Mad rush by the NHL to get as many dollars in the door before they turn off the lights. Really makes me feel good that I pay over $100 a ticket per game for lower bowl seats. Oh well, I'm going to enjoy the last few home games before I switch back to my original team and follow the Hawks again (from 2000 miles away).
Why does it looks like it ought to appeal to degenerate gamblers?

As a full season ticket holder, I didn;t need any more signs that this is the last season here, but this is another sign this is the last season here. Faer as I'm concerned these Phx threads are now superflous. Perhaps ther QC and Seattle markets can find their own threads, but keepign these PHxx threads around is the equivalent of seeing a dyign dog on the aide of the road, pulling over, not to get it out of the traffic lane, but to kick it in the nuts, then the face, then stomp opn its ribs until you hear them crack.

I am now boycotting the Phoenix threads, and will enjoy the rest of my home games, and road games, and then bid farewell to the NHL.

This promotion is more like a GOALden shower on us STHs than anything else. F--- the NHL they are p---ing on sths with this plan.

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02-14-2013, 02:39 PM
  #123
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^^^^

It might appear to be that ( the whole graphic beating up a dying dog ), but I think for the most part people are just hanging out here to see how it finishes. Really, after watching this for 3+ years, there is no way people are not going to wait to see the last mile run.

And I know it doesn't mean much, but I still think the team has a chance to stay. A small chance, but a chance never the less. The reason is... for all the bluster we heard from the elected on the council about how they don't want to give a deal like Jamison had to anyone else that tries to buy, IMO it could still be bluster. The CoG may talk the talk, but when they get down to brass tacks, and truely realize they they may be the people that cause this team to leave... they might just do what the previous council did, and give the potential owner whatever they want.

Until the moving vans are parked outside the arena, I still think the CoG might just write a blank cheque to do whatever it takes.

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02-14-2013, 02:43 PM
  #124
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I can't decide if that's clever or beyond-desperate...

 
Old
02-14-2013, 02:50 PM
  #125
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Friday, April 26 versus the Colorado Avalanche

The last game of the season will be against Nordiques 1.0....

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