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You can have Clowe and Demers...What'll you give me?

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Old
02-14-2013, 02:10 PM
  #101
WTFetus
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Originally Posted by Dharvey33 View Post
The habs could take some cap dump but not too much anyway a deal like this would be too good for the habs to happen.
I wasn't thinking of a cap dump per se. Can the Habs afford to eat about a million of Gionta's salary for a year?

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Originally Posted by Bert Macklin View Post
Petrecki and Pelech most likely aren't coming back up. If Pelech can actually play hockey then maybe. Clowe fights too much? He has 2 fights this year I think in 13 games. I wouldn't exactly call that fighting too much. Both Murray and Clowe have intimidating presences, take them away and what do opposing teams have to fear about playing the Sharks?
In my opinion, the whole "I'm scared of Clowe so I won't hit any Shark" is very overrated. Clowe doesn't prevent anything. A player will hit Couture and Clowe will end up fighting their goon. It's a win-win for the other team.

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02-14-2013, 02:22 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
In my opinion, the whole "I'm scared of Clowe so I won't hit any Shark" is very overrated. Clowe doesn't prevent anything. A player will hit Couture and Clowe will end up fighting their goon. It's a win-win for the other team.
Yeah, I'm more afraid of a powerful offense than a couple guys that will fight or hit me hard.

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02-14-2013, 02:24 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
I wasn't thinking of a cap dump per se. Can the Habs afford to eat about a million of Gionta's salary for a year?



In my opinion, the whole "I'm scared of Clowe so I won't hit any Shark" is very overrated. Clowe doesn't prevent anything. A player will hit Couture and Clowe will end up fighting their goon. It's a win-win for the other team.
Don't know if that's doable anyway i doubt the habs would trade Gionta before his contract ends.

That's why is said to good to be true.

Funny thing is the habs and the sharks do make good trading partners.

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02-14-2013, 02:24 PM
  #104
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Drew Stafford? Struggling winger with team speed for struggling winger with toughness?

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02-14-2013, 02:27 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
Drew Stafford? Struggling winger with team speed for struggling winger with toughness?
I'd do it.

It's weird. During the early off-season, a Clowe for Stafford swap was approved by both fanbases. Then near August, Buffalo fans didn't like it anymore. And now, Buffalo fans seem to like it again.

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02-14-2013, 02:34 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Arrch View Post
While I agree that Clowe would need to go to a contender, we wouldn't be looking for Defensive Prospects at all.
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Originally Posted by AJ SF4L View Post
This does nothing to help the Sharks. The Sharks (as of this moment) would not look to move Clowe for picks/prospects. Yes, he is a UFA, but I'm pretty sure any team around the league would be willing to take a chance to trade for him with the intention to re-sign him. Furthermore, the Sharks do not need D prospects. They currently have Burns, Vlasic, Demers, and Braun as the foundation for the future core, with Irwin, Acolatse, Tennyson, Petrecki, and Doherty in Worcester and a number of young guys who will be coming up in the next few years. If Clowe is moved, there will be a forward coming back.
I still contend that if you DO want to trade Clowe and Demers, they'd have to go to two separate teams. For the record, I wouldn't trade Demers at all - but I was just responding to the OP, and trying to give some options. Same goes for Clowe - if you DO want to move him for fear that he won't re-sign, I'm just coming up with options.

So we've agreed that Clowe will need to go to a contender, but what will "contenders" give up in return? Picks and prospects. I find it hard to believe that any contender will send back an NHL-ready forward that could play on the SJ 2nd/3rd line, unless it's someone that "doesn't fit into their current team's plans (ie. Tyler Kennedy). And if SJ insists on asking for such a forward, they're going to significantly narrow the amount of possible trade partners, since the "contenders" will likely need those forwards for their planned Cup run.

I'll be honest - I haven't heard too much about the D prospects in Worcester. Do you feel that these guys can step into the SJ roster and contribute effectively in the near future? If so, then perhaps focus on forward prospects and draft picks.

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02-14-2013, 02:41 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Arrch View Post
While I agree that Clowe would need to go to a contender, we wouldn't be looking for Defensive Prospects at all.
Speak for yourself. I'll take the deal.

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02-14-2013, 02:51 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Blue Goose View Post
I still contend that if you DO want to trade Clowe and Demers, they'd have to go to two separate teams. For the record, I wouldn't trade Demers at all - but I was just responding to the OP, and trying to give some options. Same goes for Clowe - if you DO want to move him for fear that he won't re-sign, I'm just coming up with options.

So we've agreed that Clowe will need to go to a contender, but what will "contenders" give up in return? Picks and prospects. I find it hard to believe that any contender will send back an NHL-ready forward that could play on the SJ 2nd/3rd line, unless it's someone that "doesn't fit into their current team's plans (ie. Tyler Kennedy). And if SJ insists on asking for such a forward, they're going to significantly narrow the amount of possible trade partners, since the "contenders" will likely need those forwards for their planned Cup run.

I'll be honest - I haven't heard too much about the D prospects in Worcester. Do you feel that these guys can step into the SJ roster and contribute effectively in the near future? If so, then perhaps focus on forward prospects and draft picks.
Yes, we have D coming out of our ears. Demers/Braun/Irwin all play similar games, all are NHL ready. Irwin played a bunch of games to start the season and looked solid (better than Braun has so far this year). On top of that we have Petrecki, Tennyson, Acolotse, Albetshauser, all needing NHL likely in the next few seasons. There is also Pelech, Doherty...

Also keep in mind we have Burns and Vlasic locked up long term, Stuart for another 3 years, Braun/Demers are both RFA's still. Sharks D is looking pretty much set for the foreseeable future.

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02-14-2013, 02:55 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
I'd do it.

It's weird. During the early off-season, a Clowe for Stafford swap was approved by both fanbases. Then near August, Buffalo fans didn't like it anymore. And now, Buffalo fans seem to like it again.
Roy for Ott cost some team speed and opened up a hole at center that Stafford's trade value might have filled. Also, Stafford signified added years of control on a team that just pushed back its contention window. Now, Buffalo needs a shakeup and I believe it's early enough in the season for that type of trade to spark a turnaround for both the team and player and result in a re-upping.

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02-14-2013, 02:55 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
Irwin played a bunch of games to start the season and looked solid (better than Braun has so far this year).
I disagree. Irwin looked alright, but not better than Braun. Braun has a better first pass, better food speed, and can take it into the zone better.
Not to mention Irwin played with Boyle and mostly the top-line whereas Braun has been stuck with Murray. In the one or two games Irwin played with Murray, he looked a lot worse.

I agree with the rest though.

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02-14-2013, 03:12 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Hatrick Marleau View Post
Yeah, I'm more afraid of a powerful offense than a couple guys that will fight or hit me hard.
A powerful offense that has scored a whopping 7 goals in the last 6 games? Do you really think subtracting Clowe and adding Gionta/MacArthur/Eller or whoever is suddenly going to turn them into an offensive juggernaut?

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02-14-2013, 03:17 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Bert Macklin View Post
A powerful offense that has scored a whopping 7 goals in the last 6 games? Do you really think subtracting Clowe and adding Gionta/MacArthur/Eller or whoever is suddenly going to turn them into an offensive juggernaut?
Huh???? I didn't say the Sharks have a powerful offense. I was saying that if we had to play a team that had a bunch of Clowe's and Murray's or a team that had Crosby's and Karlsson's I would be more scared of the Crosby team. Grit is very overrated and I could care less if Murray and Clowe were gone since we don't need them.

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02-14-2013, 03:24 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Bert Macklin View Post
Boyle? What? Burns is injured.

Both Murray and Clowe have intimidating presences, take them away and what do opposing teams have to fear about playing the Sharks?
Boyle plays a tough game, he's just small. Burns is playing.

What would the Sharks gain? Players who are fast enough to play. The top 6 is too slow. Thornton can skate fast, but plays such a slow down game it doesn't really matter. Marleau and Havlat are fast. Couture skates weird and slow. Pavelski skates even slower. Clowe makes Handzus look fast. They get beat out in races for pucks time and time again. If they were to ship out Clowe for a similar level player (like Stafford) that is faster it would absolutely help them out.

Clowe is so unbelievably overrated on HFBoards it's not even funny. People see him as a power forward, but really he's a slower, less talented, less defensively sound, less in control, wannabe Thornton who takes stupid penalties, and seems to turn on the mean streak at all the wrong times. I'm really tired of seeing the Sharks rely on him for top 6 minutes. I'd like him on a scoring 3rd line, though, where his stupid outbursts and lack of footspeed wouldn't cripple the team as much.

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02-14-2013, 03:26 PM
  #114
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Colin Greening+3rd

For

Clowe
Murray?

Too little? Just right?

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02-14-2013, 03:26 PM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bert Macklin View Post
A powerful offense that has scored a whopping 7 goals in the last 6 games? Do you really think subtracting Clowe and adding Gionta/MacArthur/Eller or whoever is suddenly going to turn them into an offensive juggernaut?
No, but it would likely make them more consistent in the transition game. Clowe this year reminds me of the fat rhino from Jumanji. The play goes up the ice and he's just lagging behind.

He does some things that the Sharks would miss, but if they had a speedy finisher instead of a tough playmaker it would benefit the team.

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02-14-2013, 03:36 PM
  #116
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My point was that all of those players are 'tough', as in will stand up for themselves and don't need protecting. Boyle is little, but the dude fights dirty, ever seen anyone intentionally piss him off?

Burns is playing now, and I don't know what point his current injury status has in this conversation.

Fact is the Sharks are not intimated physically by other teams now, and Clowe and Murray are not going to change that appreciably. The Sharks are not a small team and do not need skill players getting in fights. As far as hitting goes, Clowe is generally hitting players who are already out of position (because he slow) and Murray rarely hits (because he's slow) but instead absorbs hits. Most every skill player in the league knows better than to try to hit Murray, so they just avoid him. Those huge counter-hits of his tend to come from rookies and guys not paying attention or don't know any better.

The players on the Sharks making good, effective, hits are Stuart, Wingels, Sheppard, Burns, Demers... Basically the guys forechecking and the defenders that can skate.

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02-14-2013, 04:44 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by magic school bus View Post
Speak for yourself. I'll take the deal.
So you would trade from a position of weakness to bolster a position of strength? Not exactly a conventional strategy...

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02-14-2013, 05:06 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Blue Goose View Post
I still contend that if you DO want to trade Clowe and Demers, they'd have to go to two separate teams. For the record, I wouldn't trade Demers at all - but I was just responding to the OP, and trying to give some options. Same goes for Clowe - if you DO want to move him for fear that he won't re-sign, I'm just coming up with options.

So we've agreed that Clowe will need to go to a contender, but what will "contenders" give up in return? Picks and prospects. I find it hard to believe that any contender will send back an NHL-ready forward that could play on the SJ 2nd/3rd line, unless it's someone that "doesn't fit into their current team's plans (ie. Tyler Kennedy). And if SJ insists on asking for such a forward, they're going to significantly narrow the amount of possible trade partners, since the "contenders" will likely need those forwards for their planned Cup run.

I'll be honest - I haven't heard too much about the D prospects in Worcester. Do you feel that these guys can step into the SJ roster and contribute effectively in the near future? If so, then perhaps focus on forward prospects and draft picks.
Well, the vast majority of Sharks fans don't want to move Demers, unless it's a hockey trade for a top-6 forward. There's no reason at all the move him. Like, at all.

As for as SJ's defense prospects, it's not like we have high-end guys, but the Sharks have a habit of churning out mid-early twenty year old #4-#6's every year. Two years ago it was Demers. Last year it was Braun. This year, it's Irwin. The Sharks org does a real good job of getting these guys as FAs or in the 7th round. Then you look at Vlasic (25) and Burns (27) and we already have our young top-pairing. Demers, Braun, Irwin, these guys are fine as second pairing guys. Sena Acolatse was putting up great numbers in Worcester before breaking his jaw blocking a shot. I've watched the kid, I think he's next year's Irwin. Matt Tennyson too, he's a really good puck-mover with good potential. Both of those guys were signed as free agents out of college/CHL.

So basically, defensive prospects do nothing for the Sharks. Our defense at the NHL level is pretty young (except Boyle), and we have enough role players playing above expectation that I'm not concerned about our 4-6 spots now or in the future.

We have the opposite situation on our hands at the forward position. Thornton and Marleau are 33, and easily our best forwards. We have no one, save Hertl, whom I love to death having watched a dozen of his Czech Extraliiga games and all his WJC games too, who is even close to a guaranteed top-6 forward. Matt Nieto is talented, but a risky player. Freddie Hamilton looks to be projecting as more of a 2nd/3rd line tweener. No one else is really worth talking about right now.

If we trade Clowe for futures, it'll be for a high pick, or for a good forward prospect.

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02-14-2013, 05:35 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by magic school bus View Post
Speak for yourself. I'll take the deal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arrch View Post
So you would trade from a position of weakness to bolster a position of strength? Not exactly a conventional strategy...
I totally understand that it's not conventional. But I was looking at the teams who might be the most interested and willing to offer the best players in return (and the fact that I got both a Sharks fan AND a Pens fan to agree to the deal tells me I might be on to something).

But I'll defer to your better judgment and offer this: If you get PIT to part with Harrington, for example, then I would turn around and trade a D prospect in a package for the coveted forward that you seek. Trying to get that forward in exchange for Clowe could prove difficult. As I mentioned, the teams that would be interested in acquiring a UFA forward at the deadline aren't going to trade away a forward that would likely replace the UFA if he were to sign elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
As for as SJ's defense prospects, it's not like we have high-end guys, but the Sharks have a habit of churning out mid-early twenty year old #4-#6's every year. Two years ago it was Demers. Last year it was Braun. This year, it's Irwin. The Sharks org does a real good job of getting these guys as FAs or in the 7th round. Then you look at Vlasic (25) and Burns (27) and we already have our young top-pairing. Demers, Braun, Irwin, these guys are fine as second pairing guys. Sena Acolatse was putting up great numbers in Worcester before breaking his jaw blocking a shot. I've watched the kid, I think he's next year's Irwin. Matt Tennyson too, he's a really good puck-mover with good potential. Both of those guys were signed as free agents out of college/CHL.

So basically, defensive prospects do nothing for the Sharks. Our defense at the NHL level is pretty young (except Boyle), and we have enough role players playing above expectation that I'm not concerned about our 4-6 spots now or in the future.

We have the opposite situation on our hands at the forward position. Thornton and Marleau are 33, and easily our best forwards. We have no one, save Hertl, whom I love to death having watched a dozen of his Czech Extraliiga games and all his WJC games too, who is even close to a guaranteed top-6 forward. Matt Nieto is talented, but a risky player. Freddie Hamilton looks to be projecting as more of a 2nd/3rd line tweener. No one else is really worth talking about right now.

If we trade Clowe for futures, it'll be for a high pick, or for a good forward prospect.
Makes perfect sense. On the one hand, as I'm a fan of a team who's NOT really loaded with good D prospects, I could argue that you can never have enough depth on defense in the pipeline. But I totally see where you're coming from - in fact, I would take my logic one step further and offer this:

Send Clowe to Pittsburgh for Harrington and a 2nd.
Send Harrington and the 2nd to St. Louis for Matt D'Agostini and a 4th.

To me, that would help all THREE teams address their needs, with trade value distributed evenly.

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02-14-2013, 05:40 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Blue Goose View Post
I totally understand that it's not conventional. But I was looking at the teams who might be the most interested and willing to offer the best players in return (and the fact that I got both a Sharks fan AND a Pens fan to agree to the deal tells me I might be on to something).

But I'll defer to your better judgment and offer this: If you get PIT to part with Harrington, for example, then I would turn around and trade a D prospect in a package for the coveted forward that you seek. Trying to get that forward in exchange for Clowe could prove difficult. As I mentioned, the teams that would be interested in acquiring a UFA forward at the deadline aren't going to trade away a forward that would likely replace the UFA if he were to sign elsewhere.



Makes perfect sense. On the one hand, as I'm a fan of a team who's NOT really loaded with good D prospects, I could argue that you can never have enough depth on defense in the pipeline. But I totally see where you're coming from - in fact, I would take my logic one step further and offer this:

Send Clowe to Pittsburgh for Harrington and a 2nd.
Send Harrington and the 2nd to St. Louis for Matt D'Agostini and a 4th.

To me, that would help all THREE teams address their needs, with trade value distributed evenly.
D'Agostini is often a healthy scratch in St. Louis. I know that's just because they're really deep, but I would try to get Dags without giving up Clowe, if I could. He seems to me, like the kind of player that struggles unless he's put with a player with whom he has really good chemistry. What if he doesn't have chemistry with Couture or Thornton? What then? I don't want Galiardi 2.0, and I just don't think it's a good idea to count on D'Agostini as a top-6 forward.

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02-19-2013, 03:14 PM
  #121
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Not happy with Demers? Huh??
No, not at all. Has been the worst D man we have. Murray a close 2nd. Murray isn't a bad 3rd line D man. But Demers has been flat out lost so far. Turnovers, bad passing, just has looked lost. It has been said he was doing outstanding over seas, but I haven't seen it.

Clowe has been near worthless for all of last year and the start of this year. I don't understand why Clowe moves to the top line and Havlat goes to the third. Havlat has skills that Clowe does not.

It doesn't help that I wanted McLellan gone last year and not a big fan again this year. He runs the same system and just switches the lines. Let the freaking players get some time together.

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02-19-2013, 03:39 PM
  #122
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Lupul + Holzer for Clowe + Demers

With JVR and Kessel playing so well together Lupul slides chemistry idea proven to be a myth. Lupul's signed, has ability to score 70+ points in SJs Top 6. Demers can be 2nd pairing guy with Liles then Rielly in the future. Gives Leafs options to trade Gunnar for a piece they can use elsewhere.
although i really want Clowe, and i dont know much about Demers (but the price looks close) not at the expense of Lupul.

a Clowe type of player and a number 1 center is all the leafs need to being a playoff contender imo. idk what they would want for just clowe tho.

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02-19-2013, 03:48 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Arrch View Post
So you would trade from a position of weakness to bolster a position of strength? Not exactly a conventional strategy...
Clowe's probably not staying after this season. Taking a 2nd round pick and a good defense prospect is a good idea. Not taking it because we have old Boyle, Stuart & Murray would be stupid. By the time Harrington is ready to be on the team, those guys will be not be blocking anyone.

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02-19-2013, 04:17 PM
  #124
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No, not at all. Has been the worst D man we have. Murray a close 2nd. Murray isn't a bad 3rd line D man. But Demers has been flat out lost so far. Turnovers, bad passing, just has looked lost. It has been said he was doing outstanding over seas, but I haven't seen it.

Clowe has been near worthless for all of last year and the start of this year. I don't understand why Clowe moves to the top line and Havlat goes to the third. Havlat has skills that Clowe does not.

It doesn't help that I wanted McLellan gone last year and not a big fan again this year. He runs the same system and just switches the lines. Let the freaking players get some time together.
What are you talking about??? Murray had been our worst Dman AINEC. Demers has been pretty good when he has played but Tmac never plays him anymore.

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02-19-2013, 05:03 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by DuckEatinShark View Post
Demers has played in 3-4 games. All of which have been pretty good.

If we trade Clowe, it'll be for a 2nd/3rd line winger that can score a little. We don't need D, we don't need goalies.
Clowe for MacArthur. Both UFA, we need some six upfront, Mac is a decent 2nd liner.

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