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Old
02-14-2013, 09:13 PM
  #276
Top Corner2
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Originally Posted by thewall View Post
Caps 4-2 vs TB... RDS will still probably praise the work of Boucher and his french staff.. All their superstars have gone quiet since they stop getting 7-8 PP per game!!!!!!!
hmmm....true....but so have the habs....

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Old
02-14-2013, 09:14 PM
  #277
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hmmm....true....but so have the habs....
Our only superstars are Subban and Price.

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Old
02-14-2013, 09:25 PM
  #278
Marc the Habs Fan
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Freaking Nashville winning again despite their crappy offence. Not looking good for that 2nd.

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Old
02-14-2013, 09:50 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
Our only superstars are Subban and Price.
Markov is a superstar before Subban...who I don't qualify as a superstar yet anyway.

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Old
02-14-2013, 10:12 PM
  #280
hockeyfan2k11
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Markov is a superstar before Subban...who I don't qualify as a superstar yet anyway.
Markov has NEVER been a superstar.

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Old
02-14-2013, 10:20 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
Markov has NEVER been a superstar.
That's his peak numbers.

2007-08 Montreal Canadiens NHL 82 16 42 58 pts
2008-09 Montreal Canadiens NHL 78 12 52 64 pts
2009-10 Montreal Canadiens NHL 45 6 28 34 pts

Norris voting

07-08: 6th
08-09: 7th

Always relative to your definition of superstar...

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Old
02-14-2013, 10:26 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Warts?

The second article I link to refutes most of the warts, such as Semin the bad playoff performer which you bring up.

He's a great player, solid defensive ability as well as one of the top-10 snipers in the game, he actually would have been ideal for the Plekanec line and that's where the non-tanker part of me wanted him penciled in the summer. He's got the three-zone skill to play on a shutdown line like Plekanec, and as one of the best shooters in the game he would mesh well with Plekanec's passing.

Maybe Therrien would have played him for 7 minutes a game on the 4th line with Eller and Armstrong and then he wouldn't be performing well, you make a valid point.
I hoped Bergevin would sign him.

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Old
02-14-2013, 11:40 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
Markov has NEVER been a superstar.
I agree. Great PP specialist. Decent defensively but not a superstar.

Pk's not a superstar now either but he's our best blueliner.

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Old
02-14-2013, 11:42 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I agree. Great PP specialist. Decent defensively but not a superstar.

Pk's not a superstar now either but he's our best blueliner.

Markov at his best was far better than decent defensively. Not elite defensively, never a superstar, but you are making him sound like Kaberle. For a few years he was an above average two way 5 on 5 player and perhaps the best PP weapon in the league. A top 10 defender in the league yes, arguably top 5, but his only year with the Habs as a top tier team, Kovalev kind of stole the show.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
I hoped Bergevin would sign him.
I'd take Semin over Cole or Gionta without second thought, and yes I'm considering Cole last year and not just this. Whatever they'd lose in leadership they'd gain in everything else.

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Old
02-14-2013, 11:44 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
I'm also incredibly happy for Colombus. Maybe they'll start to have some good hockey.

They have a good future in my opinion. I would've like Kekalainen on our staff.
John Davidson was on the radio yesterday... he's a good guy to have running the show. He talked about his days in St. Louis and about rebuilding. He dealt away Weight and Tkachuk and then re-signed them immediately after their rental stint was up.

Kekalainen came on and talked about his philosophy. He looks at advanced statistics to back up his decisions. He said you should never base decisions on those stats alone and they should only be used to support or reinforce a decision you were already going to make or give pause to think about it if they don''t. It's a secondary source for decision making not primary.

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Old
02-14-2013, 11:49 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
John Davidson was on the radio yesterday... he's a good guy to have running the show. He talked about his days in St. Louis and about rebuilding. He dealt away Weight and Tkachuk and then re-signed them immediately after their rental stint was up.

Kekalainen came on and talked about his philosophy. He looks at advanced statistics to back up his decisions. He said you should never base decisions on those stats alone and they should only be used to support or reinforce a decision you were already going to make or give pause to think about it if they don''t. It's a secondary source for decision making not primary.
I'm very impressed by what Kekalainen has said so far, yes actions speak louder than words, but he's right. You don't look at advanced stats spreadsheets until you have already observed the game yourself and have opinions to start with, but to dismiss them is absurd. Like everything else they are an asset to help you observe, when used in context. My biggest fear is Bergevin is so old fashioned he dismisses such things completely and expects the mystical power of "character" to guide everything.

I would have loved Kekalainen on this management staff.

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Old
02-14-2013, 11:57 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
I'm very impressed by what Kekalainen has said so far, yes actions speak louder than words, but he's right. You don't look at advanced stats spreadsheets until you have already observed the game yourself and have opinions to start with, but to dismiss them is absurd. Like everything else they are an asset to help you observe, when used in context. My biggest fear is Bergevin is so old fashioned he dismisses such things completely and expects the mystical power of "character" to guide everything.

I would have loved Kekalainen on this management staff.
I think Gomez is the classic example. We saw what his play was like and it was no surprise that he wasn't putting up points. But his microstats looked great...

The tail can't wag the dog.

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Old
02-15-2013, 12:03 AM
  #288
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Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 View Post
Markov has NEVER been a superstar.
2006-2007, 2007-2008 we had the best Power Play in the league.

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Old
02-15-2013, 12:08 AM
  #289
Et le But
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I think Gomez is the classic example. We saw what his play was like and it was no surprise that he wasn't putting up points. But his microstats looked great...

The tail can't wag the dog.
Stats, whether they be goals per game, +/- or fancystats, are only as good as their context.

In 10/11 when Gomez had his corsi and all that flattered him, it does make sense if you look at that context - he was still very good at carrying the puck, and while he could hardly do anything with it, when his line was on the ice the Habs did outplay the opposition. It's hard to argue with that, the only problem corsi doesn't take into account things like quality of shot and what makes a pass effective or not as long as its successful. And while obvious stats like goals scored don't tell the whole story, shouldn't ignore the and only look at corsi and fenwick.

And last year, his microstats were only good if you ignored quality of competition..Gomez was so bad he was playing in ridiculously sheltered minutes, so anything positive he did, it was compared to the likes of 4th liners.

So yeah, you don't have to worry, the sport will never be run by mathematicians with spreadsheets and computers who make every decision on a computer, but when dealing with peoples opinions, which things like scouting are, it makes sense to have evidence to back up your thoughts.

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Old
02-15-2013, 12:36 AM
  #290
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
Freaking Nashville winning again despite their crappy offence. Not looking good for that 2nd.
Trotz is so freaking amazing, I thought they were dead this year after losing Suter and Radulov.. They are the NJ Devils of the West..

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Old
02-15-2013, 01:21 AM
  #291
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Stats, whether they be goals per game, +/- or fancystats, are only as good as their context.

In 10/11 when Gomez had his corsi and all that flattered him, it does make sense if you look at that context - he was still very good at carrying the puck, and while he could hardly do anything with it, when his line was on the ice the Habs did outplay the opposition. It's hard to argue with that, the only problem corsi doesn't take into account things like quality of shot and what makes a pass effective or not as long as its successful. And while obvious stats like goals scored don't tell the whole story, shouldn't ignore the and only look at corsi and fenwick.

And last year, his microstats were only good if you ignored quality of competition..Gomez was so bad he was playing in ridiculously sheltered minutes, so anything positive he did, it was compared to the likes of 4th liners.

So yeah, you don't have to worry, the sport will never be run by mathematicians with spreadsheets and computers who make every decision on a computer, but when dealing with peoples opinions, which things like scouting are, it makes sense to have evidence to back up your thoughts.
I'm actually all for microstats, but the problem is precisely that most people using these stats are statistical n00bs who don't realize that these stats are NOT comprehensive and all-encompassing. You have to process a lot and account for a lot of contingencies when analyzing microstats(or any other ****ing statistic that comes out, including things like the inflation rate or GDP growth percentage). If you cannot flesh out all of the confounding variables that can move a stat's value up and down, put the microstats away.

Real statisticians do take care to look for contingencies and find out what is not quantified that can affect the data. The statistically "illiterates" who parrot out "omg, higher corisi=better player" really show their ignorance on the matter.

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Old
02-15-2013, 01:54 AM
  #292
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Great to see the Leafs lose tonight! That team is going nowhere fast with Reimer and Scivens as their goalies.

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Old
02-15-2013, 06:02 AM
  #293
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
John Davidson was on the radio yesterday... he's a good guy to have running the show. He talked about his days in St. Louis and about rebuilding. He dealt away Weight and Tkachuk and then re-signed them immediately after their rental stint was up.

Kekalainen came on and talked about his philosophy. He looks at advanced statistics to back up his decisions. He said you should never base decisions on those stats alone and they should only be used to support or reinforce a decision you were already going to make or give pause to think about it if they don''t. It's a secondary source for decision making not primary.
Interesting to hear a GM from a scouting background acknowledge advanced stats. Did he mention any specifically?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Stats, whether they be goals per game, +/- or fancystats, are only as good as their context.

In 10/11 when Gomez had his corsi and all that flattered him, it does make sense if you look at that context - he was still very good at carrying the puck, and while he could hardly do anything with it, when his line was on the ice the Habs did outplay the opposition. It's hard to argue with that, the only problem corsi doesn't take into account things like quality of shot and what makes a pass effective or not as long as its successful. And while obvious stats like goals scored don't tell the whole story, shouldn't ignore the and only look at corsi and fenwick.

And last year, his microstats were only good if you ignored quality of competition..Gomez was so bad he was playing in ridiculously sheltered minutes, so anything positive he did, it was compared to the likes of 4th liners.


So yeah, you don't have to worry, the sport will never be run by mathematicians with spreadsheets and computers who make every decision on a computer, but when dealing with peoples opinions, which things like scouting are, it makes sense to have evidence to back up your thoughts.
Well said. I would just add, in Gomez's case, last season especially, he got very favorable zone starts which inflated his corsi numbers.

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Old
02-15-2013, 06:23 AM
  #294
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
Freaking Nashville winning again despite their crappy offence. Not looking good for that 2nd.
Regardless, a pick in the top 50 is still nice, should still be able to get a good prospect or use it to trade up 4-6 spots in the 1st.

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Old
02-15-2013, 06:25 AM
  #295
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I agree. Great PP specialist. Decent defensively but not a superstar.

Pk's not a superstar now either but he's our best blueliner.
Before the serious injuries he was well above average defensively and one of the best(top 5) offensively. If he was a more high profile personality he would have been a 2-3 time Norris contender.

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Old
02-15-2013, 06:32 AM
  #296
hockeyfan2k11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsead View Post
That's his peak numbers.

2007-08 Montreal Canadiens NHL 82 16 42 58 pts
2008-09 Montreal Canadiens NHL 78 12 52 64 pts
2009-10 Montreal Canadiens NHL 45 6 28 34 pts

Norris voting

07-08: 6th
08-09: 7th

Always relative to your definition of superstar...
what?

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Old
02-15-2013, 06:33 AM
  #297
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Originally Posted by TheBabysitter View Post
2006-2007, 2007-2008 we had the best Power Play in the league.
Do you know what a superstar is? Being a part of a good PP does not make you a superstar.

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Old
02-15-2013, 06:41 AM
  #298
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Markov was arguably top 10-5-3 dman in the league at one point.

I remember, theres a couple of years, he was third behind Pronger-Lidstron

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02-15-2013, 07:38 AM
  #299
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People saying Markov wasn't a superstar need to look at our record with/without him in his prime. It was insane how much better he made our team.

Sure he was not a finalist ever for the Norris but the voting is usually a joke, take for example probably his best season of his career in 2007-2008:



You can tell how hilarious some of the voters are when Streit gets Norris vote when he played most that year on forward...

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Old
02-15-2013, 08:38 AM
  #300
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http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/range...6m8t18w51TAc2N

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