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David Desharnais Discussion (Slow Start & Contact Talk)

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Old
02-14-2013, 10:34 AM
  #601
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
You mentioned that “There were a lot of people stating that DD was better than Plekanec last year...” and that’s simply not true. Some posters, like me, do consider that Desharnais has better vision than Plekanec but 95% of the fans considered, and still consider, Plekanec as the better overall player and our clear #1C.

Desharnais is a cap friendly and solid (vision, hard work, high compete level, great attitude...) #2 NHL center. However, if he ever asks for 4M$ + per season, I would be the first to wish him luck... somewhere else!
I don't know anyone who really thought Plekanec was worse than Desharnais except maybe Patofqc.

On another note, I would let Desharnais walk at $4M too. I'm hoping for something long-term around $2M, that would be ideal. The only way he gets $4M now is if he either gets really, really, really hot or we make the playoffs and he turns into Saku Koivu.

Even if all he ends up being is a 3rd line "Danny Briere" type guy, I'm fine with that if he comes cheap. Especially if he continues to be one of the better shootout guys in the league. I'll admit I was wrong on his high end talent if I'm wrong, but I'm still happy he made it this far.

One thing I have noticed is that he's not playing the same game he was last year (besides fighting the puck). I've seen him go to the boards more times this year than I did all of last year when trying to enter the zone. He's not a guy you can play dump and chase with - its somewhat frustrating. If that's a team system thing, he definitely doesn't fit into that, so either find a solution by replacing him or changing up the tactic for his line.

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02-14-2013, 11:17 AM
  #602
Kjell Dahlin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkeyeCB View Post
I don't know anyone who really thought Plekanec was worse than Desharnais except maybe Patofqc.

On another note, I would let Desharnais walk at $4M too. I'm hoping for something long-term around $2M, that would be ideal. The only way he gets $4M now is if he either gets really, really, really hot or we make the playoffs and he turns into Saku Koivu.

Even if all he ends up being is a 3rd line "Danny Briere" type guy, I'm fine with that if he comes cheap. Especially if he continues to be one of the better shootout guys in the league. I'll admit I was wrong on his high end talent if I'm wrong, but I'm still happy he made it this far.

One thing I have noticed is that he's not playing the same game he was last year (besides fighting the puck). I've seen him go to the boards more times this year than I did all of last year when trying to enter the zone. He's not a guy you can play dump and chase with - its somewhat frustrating. If that's a team system thing, he definitely doesn't fit into that, so either find a solution by replacing him or changing up the tactic for his line.
I noticed that (the bolded part) too and I think it’s mainly *1 because Cole and Pacioretty were not driving the net as hard and fast as last season; especially Cole. I did like Cole vs TB though.

To maximise Desharnais’s input, you need to give him speedy wingers (not necessarily big; Gallagher would be a good winger for DD imo) who drive the net hard. It would open up the middle; enough for Desharnais to create a play. Under those circumstances, I think he can thrive even under Therrien’s system.

The guy is a gifted hard worker. As long as his salary remains cap friendly, he is a good asset.

I also want to comment on "... If that's a team system thing, he definitely doesn't fit into that, so either find a solution by replacing him or changing up the tactic for his line."

I work in the environmental science field so I know that diversity is always a good thing. It makes the “whole” more resilient. Long story short, I think it may be beneficial to allow Desharnais’ line a little West/East breathing room without jeopardizing the team overall strategy. In fact, it would add something imo.

A quick note regarding Patofqc... he/she sure is a passionate poster and, though I usually disagree with him/her, I can’t help but smile when I read his/her posts!


*1 Just for the record: I did use the word “mainly” here: I am not implying that our former #1 line sucked strictly because of Cole and Pacioretty! Desharnais’ reaction time was slower than last season and he had problems handling the freakin’ puck. I do however think that, thus far this season, Desharnais played better than Cole and Pacioretty.

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02-14-2013, 11:29 AM
  #603
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Didn't DD and Eller each have 3 points in the final game that Eller-DD-Cole played together? Now that Pacioretty is with the rookies, why are those 3 not being reunited?

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02-14-2013, 11:35 AM
  #604
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakomyte View Post
Didn't DD and Eller each have 3 points in the final game that Eller-DD-Cole played together? Now that Pacioretty is with the rookies, why are those 3 not being reunited?
They were at the very end of last game - so I'm hoping they get put back together tonight.

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02-14-2013, 11:35 AM
  #605
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakomyte View Post
Didn't DD and Eller each have 3 points in the final game that Eller-DD-Cole played together? Now that Pacioretty is with the rookies, why are those 3 not being reunited?
I think it was eller with 3 and the rest with 2 each. Could be wrong, though.

Also, Eller is far more useful at center than wing.

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02-15-2013, 07:19 AM
  #606
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Therrien either needs to put him on the wing or not start him on defensive zone faceoffs, he is just garbage defensively. He's lucky Price bailed him out on Huberdeau's chance in the third yesterday, our defense had the guy behind the net and he was just skating around like an idiot and left Huberdeau wide open in front of the net. Its getting ridiculous that he's playing 5-6 more minutes than Eller a game considering how brutal he's been this year.

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02-15-2013, 07:22 AM
  #607
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Do you guys not consider plus and minus statistics? Why not? I believe Pleks was one of the worst, if not worst, guy on our team last year.

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02-15-2013, 07:24 AM
  #608
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Originally Posted by TennisMenace View Post
Do you guys not consider plus and minus statistics? Why not? I believe Pleks was one of the worst, if not worst, guy on our team last year.
The +/- stat is really worthless. Unless you consider every variable then it's simply something taken out of context.

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02-15-2013, 07:27 AM
  #609
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Originally Posted by Tuggy View Post
The +/- stat is really worthless. Unless you consider every variable then it's simply something taken out of context.
Then we will have to agree to disagree. I agree it may have some variables but over all, the stats are compelling. To discount them totally is not wise IMO. They demand an explanation.

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02-15-2013, 07:33 AM
  #610
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Originally Posted by TennisMenace View Post
Then we will have to agree to disagree. I agree it may have some variables but over all, the stats are compelling. To discount them totally is not wise IMO. They demand an explanation.
No, +/- by itself is worthless. You have to take into account ice-time, chances allowed, line matchups, defensive zone faceoffs vs offensive zone faceoffs, plus a number of advanced stats and the list goes on.

A perfect example if Galchenyuk's +7 vs Plekanec's -3. One plays near or above 20 minutes a night against the other team's best players night in and night out. While the other plays sheltered minutes and is put into the position to succeed. It really skews the +/- stat which again, can't be taken at face value.

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02-15-2013, 07:44 AM
  #611
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Originally Posted by Tuggy View Post
No, +/- by itself is worthless. You have to take into account ice-time, chances allowed, line matchups, defensive zone faceoffs vs offensive zone faceoffs, plus a number of advanced stats and the list goes on.

A perfect example if Galchenyuk's +7 vs Plekanec's -3. One plays near or above 20 minutes a night against the other team's best players night in and night out. While the other plays sheltered minutes and is put into the position to succeed. It really skews the +/- stat which again, can't be taken at face value.
Well, I looked at Bruins second line last year, comparable to Pleks line, and their numbers were huge on the plus side, while Pleks line was huge on the negative. According to your logic, we would throw those numbers aside because they don't mean anything.
You may, but I won't. Pleks line has not be that good 5-5 but Bruins second line very very good 5-5.

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02-15-2013, 07:46 AM
  #612
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Originally Posted by TennisMenace View Post
Well, I looked at Bruins second line last year, comparable to Pleks line, and their numbers were huge on the plus side, while Pleks line was huge on the negative. According to your logic, we would throw those numbers aside because they don't mean anything.
You may, but I won't. Pleks line has not be that good 5-5 but Bruins second line very very good 5-5.
Right...

So I guess the fact that the Bruins were a much better team has nothing to do with it? Or the fact that the Bruins have someone like Chara on defense? Are you seriously trying to argue that Plekanec is not a good defensive player?

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02-15-2013, 07:52 AM
  #613
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Originally Posted by Tuggy View Post
Right...

So I guess the fact that the Bruins were a much better team has nothing to do with it? Or the fact that the Bruins have someone like Chara on defense? Are you seriously trying to argue that Plekanec is not a good defensive player?
I'm merely pointing out the numbers show that he is on the ice more when the opposition scores than when his line scores, 5-5.
But you make a good point in that Chara's presence can attribute to more success. So, I guess we need a Chara to back us up. Do we have one in Hamilton?

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02-16-2013, 08:50 PM
  #614
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I hope Gallagher only suffered a minor injury; I really like 2. Pacioretty – Desharnais – Gallagher. Desharnais does not necessarily need to play with big wingers: what he really needs are fast wingers who drive the net hard. It does open up the middle and it gives him a chance to create a play. It’s a good way to optimize his great vision.

Btw, Desharnais’ slow start is a thing of the past: he has been playing solid hockey since 2 weeks now. Good job DD: as usual, you made your haters look bad!


PS apparently, Pacioretty’s injury seems to be a relatively minor cut. I wrote relatively because it did need stitches.

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02-16-2013, 09:22 PM
  #615
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Vintage DD tonight. Good stuff.

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02-16-2013, 09:35 PM
  #616
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Vintage DD tonight. Good stuff.
Viva la DD!

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02-16-2013, 11:01 PM
  #617
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
I hope Gallagher only suffered a minor injury; I really like 2. Pacioretty – Desharnais – Gallagher. Desharnais does not necessarily need to play with big wingers: what he really needs are fast wingers who drive the net hard. It does open up the middle and it gives him a chance to create a play. It’s a good way to optimize his great vision.

Btw, Desharnais’ slow start is a thing of the past: he has been playing solid hockey since 2 weeks now. Good job DD: as usual, you made your haters look bad!


PS apparently, Pacioretty’s injury seems to be a relatively minor cut. I wrote relatively because it did need stitches.
2 weeks??? 1 point in the last 2 weeks and it's tonight.
Pacioretty, stil no goal in 10 games.
Gallagher was already hot.

Do i really have to be the killjoy here?

He played well tonight.
But here's the truth:

Did we just gave him AGAIN one of the hottest wingers on the team right now?
And now DD look better all by magic again?

But truth is, the chemistry tonight was between Max and Gallagher.
DD wasn't even on the ice on the first goal and was like 2 minutes late on the play created by Gallagher leading to his goal.

They played together a few game back, you know the game Gallagher got roughed up and got into a fight ? Wierd that Gallagher got knock down again tonight, mayby that's what happens when u put 2 small guys together!!

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02-16-2013, 11:15 PM
  #618
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^^

DD was flying tonight, deal with it. He showed for one of the first times this year his passing prowess, he created plenty of chances on his own. Hopefully it'll continue. Granted he's set up Cole numerous times for 2-on-1s and breakaways, yet he always fumbles the puck. Chucky got a taste of it tonight.

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02-17-2013, 01:49 AM
  #619
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Originally Posted by thebinne4pres View Post
2 weeks??? 1 point in the last 2 weeks and it's tonight.
Pacioretty, stil no goal in 10 games.
Gallagher was already hot.

Do i really have to be the killjoy here?

He played well tonight.
But here's the truth:

Did we just gave him AGAIN one of the hottest wingers on the team right now?
And now DD look better all by magic again?

But truth is, the chemistry tonight was between Max and Gallagher.
DD wasn't even on the ice on the first goal and was like 2 minutes late on the play created by Gallagher leading to his goal.

They played together a few game back, you know the game Gallagher got roughed up and got into a fight ? Wierd that Gallagher got knock down again tonight, mayby that's what happens when u put 2 small guys together!!
Lol .. Considering Gallagher had one point and was a -1 in his last 6 games, maybe you should re-think. Desharnais set both guys up multiple times, take off your sunglasses and watch the game.

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02-17-2013, 03:37 AM
  #620
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But truth is, the chemistry tonight was between Max and Gallagher.
DD wasn't even on the ice on the first goal and was like 2 minutes late on the play created by Gallagher leading to his goal.
play was created by max.

and everytime a center is the trailer in a rush, it must mean he's late on the play. right?

shows how much you know

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02-17-2013, 04:11 AM
  #621
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Hopefully he wakes the f up.

So far both Cole and DD are playing better than before which is real good news for us as others might cool down a bit.

This also increases his trade value, which I think is pretty much bound to happen with Eller embracing the checking role so much.

So that leaves one player...

Gionta: the true spacegoat of 2013.

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02-17-2013, 06:33 AM
  #622
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Originally Posted by HawkeyeCB View Post
Lol .. Considering Gallagher had one point and was a -1 in his last 6 games, maybe you should re-think. Desharnais set both guys up multiple times, take off your sunglasses and watch the game.
I took my sunglasses off....and i saw DD playing well...but i still saw Gallagher leading the way.

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Old
02-17-2013, 06:54 AM
  #623
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Originally Posted by TennisMenace View Post
I'm merely pointing out the numbers show that he is on the ice more when the opposition scores than when his line scores, 5-5.
But you make a good point in that Chara's presence can attribute to more success. So, I guess we need a Chara to back us up. Do we have one in Hamilton?
Tuggy is correct in saying that the +/- stat is a completely worthless stat. I am assuming that you are relatively new to the analytical part of the game but I can tell you after taking this approach for the last 30 years that the stat is meaningless.

FTR shooting % and GWG are also useless stats that should not be paid attention to. Very few people on these boards actually understand the tactical aspect of the game but rely on ridiculous stats to form their opinion.

If you ever get a chance to listen to Scotty Bowman talk about systems, player dynamics and tactics, you will find that your view of the game will change dramatically.

The primary reason that +/- is a stupid stat is that a defensive unit is only as good as it's weakest link. I would suggest that very few of the goals that were scored while Plekanec was on the ice could be blamed on him.

Guy Carbonneau is the greatest defensive center to ever play the game imo and he often didn't show relatively well in the +/- category. I believe he had the worst +/- on the team in the final year that we won the cup.

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02-17-2013, 07:25 AM
  #624
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Originally Posted by thebinne4pres View Post
I took my sunglasses off....and i saw DD playing well...but i still saw Gallagher leading the way.
I'm not saying Gallagher wasn't playing the best on the line (he got a couple great passes from DD too though), but DD was flying out there. I was also just proving that points don't prove everything, especially with a team struggling to score. Bourque has been our best overall player and he's just started getting some points. DD's game has been on a upturn for the past week or more now. He's been better than Pacioretty and Cole during those weeks.

DD doesn't need big wingers, he just needs carefree wingers. Wingers that will drive the net, so he can have more time with the puck. DD goes to the net a lot too, which helps for after dishes off the puck.

And the C is generally one of the last forwards into the zone since they usually tend to go lower in the defensive zone than the wingers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
Tuggy is correct in saying that the +/- stat is a completely worthless stat. I am assuming that you are relatively new to the analytical part of the game but I can tell you after taking this approach for the last 30 years that the stat is meaningless.

FTR shooting % and GWG are also useless stats that should not be paid attention to. Very few people on these boards actually understand the tactical aspect of the game but rely on ridiculous stats to form their opinion.

If you ever get a chance to listen to Scotty Bowman talk about systems, player dynamics and tactics, you will find that your view of the game will change dramatically.

The primary reason that +/- is a stupid stat is that a defensive unit is only as good as it's weakest link. I would suggest that very few of the goals that were scored while Plekanec was on the ice could be blamed on him.

Guy Carbonneau is the greatest defensive center to ever play the game imo and he often didn't show relatively well in the +/- category. I believe he had the worst +/- on the team in the final year that we won the cup.
Carbo was just a +34 in his last 10 seasons. As soon as he stopped scoring, his +/- went far down and he was used in a pure defensive role. You're usually not going to have a great +/- when your line doesn't score much.

+/- is a decent career stat and somewhat useful comparing players on the same team (if there's a major difference), but overall, it's a weak stat. You'd pretty much have to watch each individual play to see who was at fault.


Last edited by One Man Rock Band: 02-17-2013 at 07:30 AM.
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Old
02-17-2013, 08:16 AM
  #625
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He played better but he was still weak defensively and continues to be scared to take a hit to make plays, he needs to watch how Gallagher wins puck battles and realize that stopping and trying to poke the puck with his stick won't win any battles in this league.

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