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Garth Snow vs. Wang - blame thread

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Old
02-15-2013, 07:28 AM
  #1
Disgraced Cosmonaut
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Garth Snow vs. Wang - blame thread

In reading the various threads, I'm wondering: How many of us out there think that Garth Snow is the reason for the low budget type moves, the waiver pick ups, etc. and the generally poor on-ice performance? Is there a significant number of fans who think that Garth Snow would prefer to do his job on the cheap? While I'm not suggesting that Snow deserves a pass for all of his moves, I am suggesting that the clear number 1 problem the Islanders have is Wang with respect to all personnel moves. I suggest this because we all know that an established GM (N. Smith) wouldn't/didn't stay with the team when he learned of "others" (read: Wang's) amateur involvement in his potential GM duties.

This is how I'd allocate blame for the players personnel, and their performance, we have:
1. Wang -70%
2. Snow - 15%
3. Cap & Staff - 10%
4. the players - 5%

This is a HORRID situation. On a normal team, the players' responsibility would be a LOT higher because they'd theoretically be put in a better position to succeed. Same goes for the coach, and same again for the GM...

Success or failure of the on ice product, and blame or praise should be allocated more like this (on a successful team):

1. Owner - 20%
2. GM - 25%
3. Coach - 25%
4. the players - 30%

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Old
02-15-2013, 09:31 AM
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twentytwo
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Thank you for making this thread. It really annoys me when people heap the blame on Snow saying "OMG he's a terrible GM. Look at all the trades he missed and all the free agents he didn't sign."

People seam to forget with trades and free agents, it's a two way street. But that's a different issue.

The number one problem in my eyes is Wang. I know it's been reported that "Snow has the green light to spend" I just don't buy it by the financial moves and cap circumvention we've seen.

I believe that Snow is a good GM, given the circumstances he works under. I'd love to see what he could do if he were given a larger budget to work in. Then I feel he could be appropriately judged.

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02-15-2013, 09:57 AM
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I think it's impossible to fully evaluate Snow because he hasn't even been able to spend to the cap floor and it's too soon to see how well he did on most of his drafts.

I don't really like Capuono as a coach, so maybe we can blame Snow for that, but who knows whether Snow even had authority to look outside the organization to hire a coach.

I understand that the situation is tough here, but non-islanders objective publications all rank our prospects as amongst the best in the NHL. I think there is a light at the end of the tunnel here with the impending move to Brooklyn and I think Snow will finally be judged then.

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02-15-2013, 10:30 AM
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I really dont think Snow is a bad GM...

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02-15-2013, 10:30 AM
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you can evaluate snow on his drafts tavares fell into his lap other than that how would you all say he's done?

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02-15-2013, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bexlyspeed View Post
you can evaluate snow on his drafts tavares fell into his lap other than that how would you all say he's done?
Hamonic-2nd round
Martin-5th round
Cizikas-4th round
Spurgeon-6th round

Prospects with promise.

Ullstrom-2nd round
Donovan-4th round
Anders Lee 5th round
Nilsson-3rd round
Poulin-5th round



2011 and 2012 are to early to tell but are looking good imo....

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Old
02-15-2013, 11:05 AM
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CanseiDeSerBreakcore
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EXCELLENT thread.

I bet the team would be quite a bit further along if Snow had an owner willing to spend and capable of not making the franchise look silly than if Wang had an experienced GM.....which *did* happen before....for maybe 39 or 40 days.

I'm not saying Snow's GM of the year material, but I don't see the sense in placing blame on the GM when most of what one could do underneath a cheap owner has been done.

As for drafting and identifying non waiver talent, his drafting isn't half bad. Hamonic, Martin, Cizikas, Ullstrom and Bailey should all be solid players with fair careers, Poulin and Nilsson at least were within the top-15 goalie prospects, Strome looks like top-6 talent and quite a few defensive prospects look more like linebackers than hockey players.

Now, admittedly the defense coming last feels a bit "off," but had it not been done this way, it would have been a little more "Nashville-style" in what could be the worst division to have no offense capable of putting up over 55 points or so a season.....and also obviously without a goalie like Pekka Rinne to be a rock.

I'll admit that the rebuild has stalled, but I don't really see the stalling as much as a product of Snow as much as the minimal budget ensures the gaps are filled with career-AHL'ers, waiver pick-ups and other forms of cannon fodder.

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02-15-2013, 11:20 AM
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It's very hard to evaluate any GM when he's given this little to work with. It's like ripping a guy for losing the Indy 500 even though he was only given a Yugo to drive in.

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02-15-2013, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RWWallpaper View Post
It's very hard to evaluate any GM when he's given this little to work with. It's like ripping a guy for losing the Indy 500 even though he was only given a Yugo to drive in.
Awesome analogy.

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02-15-2013, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RWWallpaper View Post
It's very hard to evaluate any GM when he's given this little to work with. It's like ripping a guy for losing the Indy 500 even though he was only given a Yugo to drive in.
Perfect and succinct.

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02-15-2013, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StumpNYI View Post
Awesome analogy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 88th Precinct View Post
Perfect and succinct.

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02-15-2013, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RWWallpaper View Post
It's very hard to evaluate any GM when he's given this little to work with. It's like ripping a guy for losing the Indy 500 even though he was only given a Yugo to drive in.
Hey Hey wait a minute......................No reason to bad mouth the Yugo!

This is the way I look at it. The team is now at the crossroads. I always understood the premise that given the situation in Nassau it became impossible from a financial standpoint to put money into the team.

Whether that premise is factual is an argument for another thread (or many many past threads)

With Brooklyn on the horizon IMHO Wang is on the hot seat. He either comes through with the payroll because he wants to own a real team and he can now stop losing money or he is exposed as the worst owner in sports.....or he sells.

Until Brooklyn I reserve judgment.

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02-15-2013, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by twentytwo View Post
Thank you for making this thread. It really annoys me when people heap the blame on Snow saying "OMG he's a terrible GM. Look at all the trades he missed and all the free agents he didn't sign."

People seam to forget with trades and free agents, it's a two way street. But that's a different issue.

The number one problem in my eyes is Wang. I know it's been reported that "Snow has the green light to spend" I just don't buy it by the financial moves and cap circumvention we've seen.

I believe that Snow is a good GM, given the circumstances he works under. I'd love to see what he could do if he were given a larger budget to work in. Then I feel he could be appropriately judged.
A lot of what this team issues is just really bad PR rhetoric. Like, "UFAs don't want to sign here because of the building". Well, Joe Louis Arena is kind of a dump too and I don't see them having any major issues. Condition of the building is really a crap excuse. That stuff was meant more to get the fans behind the political process of Wang's project.

I don't think Snow is to blame here. I think he done a great job with extremely limited resources. I can't think of a GM in this league dealing with a bigger choke on finances.

Wang will more than likely sell at some point. His project is bust and doesn't really have the same gusto for this team he once had. Word I've gotten his that he hasn't been seen around the team since the announced move to Brooklyn. Not even on opening night.

Overall I think Free Agent signings are highly overrated. Where this team is at a reliable nucleus needs to be extablished and that hasn't happened yet. Whether is because of years of terrible coaching is anyones guess. I think the "veteran mentorship" is overblown.

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Old
02-15-2013, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lorwood View Post
Hey Hey wait a minute......................No reason to bad mouth the Yugo!

This is the way I look at it. The team is now at the crossroads. I always understood the premise that given the situation in Nassau it became impossible from a financial standpoint to put money into the team.

Whether that premise is factual is an argument for another thread (or many many past threads)

With Brooklyn on the horizon IMHO Wang is on the hot seat. He either comes through with the payroll because he wants to own a real team and he can now stop losing money or he is exposed as the worst owner in sports.....or he sells.

Until Brooklyn I reserve judgment.
So basically what you are saying is no sleep till Brooklyn?

My only complaint with Snow is his inability to move assets at the trading deadline. The one big obvious one is PAP last year, but there have been others in smaller degrees. His drafting has not been bad though I do not get two goalies in one draft or ALL defensemen last year. As for pulling apart picks from year to year like other have said hindsight is always easier.
I wish Cappy would show more fire, especially after some of the brutal losses or horrible officials calls. I also don't think he rewards ice time with good play very well.
I don't know where to go with Wang. He supposedly has lost much money on the team. And I know you have to spend money to make money. Without sitting in the GM's office we will never know how much of a control freak he is. But put all three guy's together the only thing that really matters is the Islanders continue to be one of the worst performing teams in the NHL. So they all deserve blame. I really thing it is make or break time next season (I know I hate writing and saying next year all the time!!) but with Nino, Strome, Donovan, maybe Nelson and Sundstrom we will see...

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Old
02-15-2013, 12:56 PM
  #15
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I know I said this before, but those who blame Snow 100% are blind and need their eyes checked. A grade for Snow in incomplete. Why? Because Wang (no matter what BS is fed to us) has restrictions on what Snow can and can't do. So where is the blame placed? WANG. Listen I appreciate that he's kept the Isles local, but some of his antics can't be overlooked. First DP's 1 million year contract, thats just for starters. 2. Decimating our front office/scouting.

If Snow worked for a GM in Philly or Tampa, or Red Wings, or the Ducks, I wonder what he could put together with a little more freedom to spend real money and not be creative or do Tim Thomas like stuff.

So my grades are as follows:

Wang- D-

Snow- B- (I only go so high because under the constraints he's under, he's done all he can. I think he has better in him if Wang gave him a little free reign with the money)

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02-15-2013, 12:58 PM
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The question is kind of funny, because my own experience in this forum is that most of us acknowledge Wang's budget restrictions are the biggest problem. It is only a select minority of Wang apologists who try to spin it differently, or who answer comments along these lines with, 'But he saved the Aaaaaahlinderssssss!!!1!' Even though that wasn't the question.

What I don't get is that if he is selling why not surround the kids with a better group to develop them. If the kids improve, the value on his return goes up when he sells. That makes me wonder if he is keeping the team and doesn't care about results at all. Maybe he just wants a money maker and will let the team rot as long as he can still turn a profit Ala Ballard.

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02-15-2013, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PROMputt View Post
So basically what you are saying is no sleep till Brooklyn?

My only complaint with Snow is his inability to move assets at the trading deadline. The one big obvious one is PAP last year, but there have been others in smaller degrees. His drafting has not been bad though I do not get two goalies in one draft or ALL defensemen last year. As for pulling apart picks from year to year like other have said hindsight is always easier.
I wish Cappy would show more fire, especially after some of the brutal losses or horrible officials calls. I also don't think he rewards ice time with good play very well.
I don't know where to go with Wang. He supposedly has lost much money on the team. And I know you have to spend money to make money. Without sitting in the GM's office we will never know how much of a control freak he is. But put all three guy's together the only thing that really matters is the Islanders continue to be one of the worst performing teams in the NHL. So they all deserve blame. I really thing it is make or break time next season (I know I hate writing and saying next year all the time!!) but with Nino, Strome, Donovan, maybe Nelson and Sundstrom we will see...
While true, I look at it as a chicken/egg situation: The team overspent on the wrong players due to a combination of Wang & Milbury, emptied it's prospect pool, and has kept an austere budget ever since. They either couldn't keep the good talent drafted or couldn't draft right at all.

Despite a few hiccups (Parenteau included) I think Snow has done most of what he could do underneath a cheap owner. They may all deserve blame, but an owner willing to spend with a bad GM can get a little further because 'money talks', as we all know. A GM working on a minimal budget for a franchise with an owner like Wang has far more of a deficit to overcome, and probably does have to stick with similar avenues of a rebuild - draft well, give a franchise center a mix of heart & grit players, big defensemen and scoring prowess, add spare parts the cheapest way possible and use the competition between prospects trying to climb into the NHL to prove which players stick and which ones get traded.

The problem is, it's also a long Darwinian process that only goes as fast as prospects mature, and since it's Wang's money that would grant access to faster upgrades and it's Wang's money that is not being spent, the clamp on payroll shows itself through no immediate help being brought in.

End result, the rebuild isn't a rebuild like Philadelphia, Ottawa, Florida or Minnesota.....it's from a point similar to an expansion team few players will sign with knowing that the money won't be spent to make the team a contender anytime soon. The drafting's been done and the prospects are maturing and showing promise at their respective levels. Since Wang's wallet is the obvious anchor, I can't lay blame for the payroll on management.

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02-15-2013, 01:44 PM
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I say Wang 100%. You can't blame the coach because it is Wang's fault we don't have a better coach. You can't blame the players because they aren't good.

As for Snow...we don't know what he can do.

The salary cap this year is $70M. The floor is $54M. The Isles are actually spending under $40M on this year's roster. More than 25% below the floor. Most teams are spending 50% more than the Isles. Heck, some of them are spending twice what the Isles are taking into account actual salaries.

I don't think there is a single GM around that could build a winner under those circumstances.

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02-15-2013, 02:34 PM
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I say Wang 100%. You can't blame the coach because it is Wang's fault we don't have a better coach. You can't blame the players because they aren't good.

As for Snow...we don't know what he can do.

The salary cap this year is $70M. The floor is $54M. The Isles are actually spending under $40M on this year's roster. More than 25% below the floor. Most teams are spending 50% more than the Isles. Heck, some of them are spending twice what the Isles are taking into account actual salaries.

I don't think there is a single GM around that could build a winner under those circumstances.
If you remove DiPietro, the Isles payroll is just $33.7 MM this year. That's for 14 forwards, 7 dmen and Nabokov.

Astounding how Snow could find a way to spend that much less than the cap floor. He must be Wang'$ hero.

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02-15-2013, 02:36 PM
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I say Wang 100%. You can't blame the coach because it is Wang's fault we don't have a better coach. You can't blame the players because they aren't good.

As for Snow...we don't know what he can do.

The salary cap this year is $70M. The floor is $54M. The Isles are actually spending under $40M on this year's roster. More than 25% below the floor. Most teams are spending 50% more than the Isles. Heck, some of them are spending twice what the Isles are taking into account actual salaries.

I don't think there is a single GM around that could build a winner under those circumstances.
This. How many regulars...good players...has Snow pulled off the trash heap. He has done a solid job. I hope our new owner retains him...

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02-15-2013, 03:08 PM
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Garth Snow is in a fist fight with 2 hands tied behind his back.

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Old
02-15-2013, 03:15 PM
  #22
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Originally Posted by lorwood View Post
Hey Hey wait a minute......................No reason to bad mouth the Yugo!

This is the way I look at it. The team is now at the crossroads. I always understood the premise that given the situation in Nassau it became impossible from a financial standpoint to put money into the team.

Whether that premise is factual is an argument for another thread (or many many past threads)

With Brooklyn on the horizon IMHO Wang is on the hot seat. He either comes through with the payroll because he wants to own a real team and he can now stop losing money or he is exposed as the worst owner in sports.....or he sells.

Until Brooklyn I reserve judgment
.
Ditto

Except I would almost give Wang a year or two grace period in Brooklyn to spend because of the money he's lost and the BS he's had to put up with in nassau.

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02-15-2013, 03:27 PM
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Garth has done a solid job for what he has had to work with!

Moulson, Grabner, Boyes, Viz, PA, Nabby, Rolloson........all good dumpster dives, some were diamonds in the rough. and who knows with Timmy T, Nabby and Viz both weren't playing here, Nabby resigned and Viz is in the lineup!

His drafts have been solid as well. Actually he does better in later rounds...........Ullstrom, Martin, Donovan, Andy MacDonald, Frans, and I like the kids in the pipeline he took after Rnd 1: Persson, Sundstrom, Kitchon, Pedan, Pelech, Theorett, Anders Lee.

And the move to Brooklyn, as much as I don't like it, will give them stability and let FA's know where they will be playing and their families lives.

As I post all the time In Garth We Trust! IGWT!

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02-15-2013, 03:31 PM
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And I can't wait for Strome to make the jump, as well as Brock Nelson, another great move by Garth to slide back into the 1st to take him. nino was rushed and is only 20, so hopefully he will be fine, kid has the skill and the size. Bailey, Okposo and deHaan (because of injury) may not pan out, but when traded down to get Bailey that turned into Hamonic, and Ness who will make the team soon enough.

Trade Kyle to Minnesota or Buffalo for Tyler Ennis! Or for a draft pick and bring up Nino!

IGWT!

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02-15-2013, 03:33 PM
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Well time for Happy Hour soon, first one is too JT, the reason their is HOPE for this franchise! The Real Deal!

IGWT!

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