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The Armchair GM Thread - Part XXXII - Kessel Run Edition

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Old
02-15-2013, 06:15 AM
  #751
Bleach Clean
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Originally Posted by biturbo19 View Post
Sure Gillis may not have felt like Vermette was worth a top-60 pick...but that doesn't mean it wasn't a mistake. I would've made the deal without blinking, and suggested it constantly at the time.


Was Booth already on the team? If so, why would you have made the move? The cap would have made you release a competent 2nd/3rd liner to compensate the salary. Not to mention a player like this blocks future Cs from being tried in that role (Schroeder).



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I'd trade Mallet, a 5th and whatever scrap AHL goaltender (Climie?) or similar substitute spare part for Vermette every single day of the week and i'd be thrilled each time i did it.


It's not Mallet + 5th. It's a 2nd (unpicked) + 5th + losing Raymond/Higgins. Still do it?


Quote:
And by fitting better than Booth at LW i mean just that...Vermette is a natural C and that's where i see him fitting best on this team. But he would have added value as a LW where he also plays much more naturally than most Centers do. It even goes back to his days in Ottawa's cup run when they went to the finals with him playing mostly as a 2nd line LW to Fisher. And imo, Fisher has a lot of similarities to Kesler. They're both gritty two-way shooting centers...I think Vermette would fit well with Kesler as well. And Vermette's best year came playing center to a shooter in Nash as well. He's not a pure 'playmaker' passing type player, but he's much closer to than Booth, and he doesn't give up that much in the 'drive the net' department when he's playing wing, and is motivated.

It would've given this team a lot of very interest options...


Vermette is not in the same league as Booth as far as driving the net. Booth does this to the detriment of his own health. He's reckless driving to the goal. Vermette hopes he had that. I've never seen him as that type of player.


I think it's pretty telling that OTT chose to keep Kelly over Vermette. The cheaper, more defined 3C. That's the problem with Vermette, he's not better at LW than natural LWers, he's a convert, and not better than natural 3Cs, of which there are more defined and cheaper options. That's why he got dealt.


Don't get me wrong, I like Vermette. But he would have been a tweener on a team filled with them. Gillis had made his call earlier by getting Booth. Switching gears to get Vermette as a LWer, didn't make sense. On top of that, the difference in the acquisition costs between the two was significant.


Where does Vermette fit here long-term, is the question? Is he just another Raymond/Higgins? If he is, what's the point when it costs you a Raymond/Higgins down the line?

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02-15-2013, 06:29 AM
  #752
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Was Booth already on the team? If so, why would you have made the move? The cap would have made you release a competent 2nd/3rd liner to compensate the salary. Not to mention a player like this blocks future Cs from being tried in that role (Schroeder).







It's not Mallet + 5th. It's a 2nd (unpicked) + 5th + losing Raymond/Higgins. Still do it?






Vermette is not in the same league as Booth as far as driving the net. Booth does this to the detriment of his own health. He's reckless driving to the goal. Vermette hopes he had that. I've never seen him as that type of player.


I think it's pretty telling that OTT chose to keep Kelly over Vermette. The cheaper, more defined 3C. That's the problem with Vermette, he's not better at LW than natural LWers, he's a convert, and not better than natural 3Cs, of which there are more defined and cheaper options. That's why he got dealt.


Don't get me wrong, I like Vermette. But he would have been a tweener on a team filled with them. Gillis had made his call earlier by getting Booth. Switching gears to get Vermette as a LWer, didn't make sense. On top of that, the difference in the acquisition costs between the two was significant.


Where does Vermette fit here long-term, is the question? Is he just another Raymond/Higgins? If he is, what's the point when it costs you a Raymond/Higgins down the line?
Pahlsson may have come at ~$1M less cap hit, but with the cap gymnastics Gillis was doing last deadline, there's no doubt in my mind that Vermette would've fit with the right shuffling. It wouldn't have been a huge stretch.

And you've basically hit on the beauty of what Vermette could've offered to this team...He's a Higgins who can play center...and very well at that. That's really what Vermette is. Do we hate on Higgins because he's not really a top-6 winger and is a bit of a 'tweener'? They're very similar players imo...you can't really describe them as scoring wingers/checkers/playmakers...they're just very good complementary players. They play well with very good players and take care of both ends of the ice while they do it.

And when Vermette was dealt from Ottawa, it was because they realized how top-heavy that team was and needed to change things...and were desperate for goaltending. It was a major reach. And when he was traded to Phoenix, well...that was a team jettisoning salary and trying to 'clear the decks' for a rebuild. And you already know how i feel about the price he went for on that...shockingly low. And i guarantee Phoenix wouldn't move him now for a 2nd, 5th and cruddy goaltender.

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02-15-2013, 06:52 AM
  #753
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Originally Posted by biturbo19 View Post
Pahlsson may have come at ~$1M less cap hit, but with the cap gymnastics Gillis was doing last deadline, there's no doubt in my mind that Vermette would've fit with the right shuffling. It wouldn't have been a huge stretch.


I think it would have. I remember people projecting players that we could acquire with a 2m~ cap hit. That excluded some other options. Beyond that, Vermette's contract impacts further signings. Like it would have this offseason, costing us Raymond/Higgins. The net positive is what? A tweener that can take face-offs? Which he would be doing less of at the LW position on Kesler's line anyways.



Quote:
And you've basically hit on the beauty of what Vermette could've offered to this team...He's a Higgins who can play center...and very well at that. That's really what Vermette is. Do we hate on Higgins because he's not really a top-6 winger and is a bit of a 'tweener'? They're very similar players imo...you can't really describe them as scoring wingers/checkers/playmakers...they're just very good complementary players. They play well with very good players and take care of both ends of the ice while they do it.

And when Vermette was dealt from Ottawa, it was because they realized how top-heavy that team was and needed to change things...and were desperate for goaltending. It was a major reach. And when he was traded to Phoenix, well...that was a team jettisoning salary and trying to 'clear the decks' for a rebuild. And you already know how i feel about the price he went for on that...shockingly low. And i guarantee Phoenix wouldn't move him now for a 2nd, 5th and cruddy goaltender.


Higgins that can play centre at the future cost of Higgins = ? Also add projected 2.4m~ salary Higgins should pull down compared to the 3.75m Vermette makes.


I consider Raymond, Higgins and Vermette all top6 forwards. Just want to clarify that. And both the VAN top6ers make 1m~ less than Vermette.


What may be the most logical reason: OTT realized they were "top heavy" and jettisoned the _better_ player (Vermette/Kelly)? Who they could have re-signed at less than the 3.75 CLB had to? OR... he was a non-defined top6er/3rd line C that inflated his contract value while still not having a defined skillset?


These types get deflated contracts from good teams, like what Raymond and Higgins received, and inflated contracts from struggling teams, like what Vermette received. So no cap savings, no defined skillset, acquisition cost and ongoing cap concerns may have made it an easy pass for Gillis an co.


Last edited by Bleach Clean: 02-15-2013 at 07:01 AM.
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02-15-2013, 10:26 AM
  #754
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If Booth has to have surgery (it does look like his groin issue is more than simply 'a-time-will-heal' problem) would the Canucks target Kessel with a goalie trade?

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02-15-2013, 10:47 AM
  #755
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Originally Posted by Alflives View Post
If Booth has to have surgery (it does look like his groin issue is more than simply 'a-time-will-heal' problem) would the Canucks target Kessel with a goalie trade?

What? They estimated him to be out 4-6 weeks. It hasn't even been 4 weeks yet (Jan19th). How does his groin issue look any different than what it was projected to be?

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02-15-2013, 10:49 AM
  #756
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My comment was more in reference to the Sammi Pahlsson acquisition last season, and the way the team was coached down the stretch and into the playoffs.

Although Schroeder and Hodgson are completely different players, I would hate to go down this road again. I would rather give someone with offensive upside (like Schroeder) the opportunity to center the third line, then try to acquire a "shut down" centreman for the third line and hinder our secondary scoring.
I agree to an extent, but as much as I like Hodgson, I don't think he would have made a difference, and I think the Pahlsson experiment would have been fine if the team itself played well against LA.

As for the current situation, I think the team could use a shutdown guy, but Schroeder should stay in the lineup regardless. Knock Weise/Volpatti out of the lineup instead if you have to.

Sedin - Sedin - Burrows
Booth - Kesler - Kassian
Raymond - Schroeder - Hansen
Higgins - Shutdown Center - Lapierre

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02-15-2013, 11:35 AM
  #757
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Originally Posted by Shareefruck View Post
I agree to an extent, but as much as I like Hodgson, I don't think he would have made a difference, and I think the Pahlsson experiment would have been fine if the team itself played well against LA.

As for the current situation, I think the team could use a shutdown guy, but Schroeder should stay in the lineup regardless. Knock Weise/Volpatti out of the lineup instead if you have to.

Sedin - Sedin - Burrows
Booth - Kesler - Kassian
Raymond - Schroeder - Hansen
Higgins - Shutdown Center - Lapierre
brian boyle!

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02-15-2013, 11:38 AM
  #758
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brian boyle!
Why would the Rangers trade him?

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02-15-2013, 11:44 AM
  #759
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Originally Posted by Shareefruck View Post
I agree to an extent, but as much as I like Hodgson, I don't think he would have made a difference, and I think the Pahlsson experiment would have been fine if the team itself played well against LA.

As for the current situation, I think the team could use a shutdown guy, but Schroeder should stay in the lineup regardless. Knock Weise/Volpatti out of the lineup instead if you have to.

Sedin - Sedin - Burrows
Booth - Kesler - Kassian
Raymond - Schroeder - Hansen
Higgins - Shutdown Center - Lapierre
Kesler is the Canucks' shut-down center.

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02-15-2013, 11:48 AM
  #760
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What? They estimated him to be out 4-6 weeks. It hasn't even been 4 weeks yet (Jan19th). How does his groin issue look any different than what it was projected to be?
Groin strains don't take 4 to 6 weeks to heal, unless the injury includes the abdominal core too. Booth made comment last week that he felt "wrong" and felt "tight" in that area. He didn't mention surgery, but if he is not back playing in the next week or two, then surgery would be the next step.

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02-15-2013, 11:55 AM
  #761
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I think the Canucks should target Jim Slater as a potential 4th line C.
He's a Left Shot, is close to a 60% Faceoff man, he's started only 24.7% in the Offensive Zone, so playing in a zone start system like AV's would be a big change for him. And whether or not you can take Hitting stats serious he's got 19 Hits in 12 Games.

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02-15-2013, 12:01 PM
  #762
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Originally Posted by Alflives View Post
Groin strains don't take 4 to 6 weeks to heal, unless the injury includes the abdominal core too. Booth made comment last week that he felt "wrong" and felt "tight" in that area. He didn't mention surgery, but if he is not back playing in the next week or two, then surgery would be the next step.
I think you're getting ahead of yourself here. Why don't we wait to see what happens before we put our dr. Recchi hats on. So far, it's a strain. Until we hear different.

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02-15-2013, 12:02 PM
  #763
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I think it would have. I remember people projecting players that we could acquire with a 2m~ cap hit. That excluded some other options. Beyond that, Vermette's contract impacts further signings. Like it would have this offseason, costing us Raymond/Higgins. The net positive is what? A tweener that can take face-offs? Which he would be doing less of at the LW position on Kesler's line anyways.
I really wanted Vermette last deadline and thought he went for a song and a dance too.

The problems for the Canucks, I am guessing, were threefold:

1) His $1.1 million cap hit premium was not going to be easy to clear last season. They would have had to waive a player to fit Vermette in (either Alberts or Raymond based on the worst performers relative to clearing enough cap space).

2) The Canucks weren't really in a position to take on a long-term salary like Vermette's. There was a gigantic increase in the cap last off-season that the Canucks didn't know about at the trade deadline. If there wasn't a huge increase in the cap, the team would be saddled with contracts they may not be able to move (Vermette's, Ballard's, and Booth's), because teams wouldn't have nearly as much cap space, with the spectre of a hole in their top-4 on defence.

3) Even if the Canucks wanted Vermette, they would have had to beat Phoenix's offer, which at the time was a second round pick in the middle of the round. They probably would have needed to pony up a first to make it work for Columbus.

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02-15-2013, 12:11 PM
  #764
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Originally Posted by pitseleh View Post
I really wanted Vermette last deadline and thought he went for a song and a dance too.

The problems for the Canucks, I am guessing, were threefold:

1) His $1.1 million cap hit premium was not going to be easy to clear last season. They would have had to waive a player to fit Vermette in (either Alberts or Raymond based on the worst performers relative to clearing enough cap space).

2) The Canucks weren't really in a position to take on a long-term salary like Vermette's. There was a gigantic increase in the cap last off-season that the Canucks didn't know about at the trade deadline. If there wasn't a huge increase in the cap, the team would be saddled with contracts they may not be able to move (Vermette's, Ballard's, and Booth's), because teams wouldn't have nearly as much cap space, with the spectre of a hole in their top-4 on defence.

3) Even if the Canucks wanted Vermette, they would have had to beat Phoenix's offer, which at the time was a second round pick in the middle of the round. They probably would have needed to pony up a first to make it work for Columbus.

All good points and I agree. Simply too rich, both asset wise and with the cap hit.


I like Vermette, but he was just a shade out of reach that year and his ongoing contract would have negatively impacted things moving forward. Do you give up a late 1st to beat the PHX offer? I wouldn't. Good player, but hardly a mistake non-acquisition.

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02-15-2013, 12:40 PM
  #765
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I dont think this will ever happen just wondering what will the Canucks be willing to offer for deal around Gardiner/Reilly + JVR?

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02-15-2013, 12:45 PM
  #766
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I think the Canucks should target Jim Slater as a potential 4th line C.
He's a Left Shot, is close to a 60% Faceoff man, he's started only 24.7% in the Offensive Zone, so playing in a zone start system like AV's would be a big change for him. And whether or not you can take Hitting stats serious he's got 19 Hits in 12 Games.
Slater would be amazing, He scored 21 points last year as a 3C, if the Jets are out of the playoff race, I could see them moving him.

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02-15-2013, 12:52 PM
  #767
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I agree to an extent, but as much as I like Hodgson, I don't think he would have made a difference, and I think the Pahlsson experiment would have been fine if the team itself played well against LA.

As for the current situation, I think the team could use a shutdown guy, but Schroeder should stay in the lineup regardless. Knock Weise/Volpatti out of the lineup instead if you have to.

Sedin - Sedin - Burrows
Booth - Kesler - Kassian
Raymond - Schroeder - Hansen
Higgins - Shutdown Center - Lapierre
As long as AV has Andrew Ebbitt up with the big club,there is Mannys replacement

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02-15-2013, 01:04 PM
  #768
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I dont think this will ever happen just wondering what will the Canucks be willing to offer for deal around Gardiner/Reilly + JVR?
In the off-season I'd offer something based around Schneider + Booth + Ballard

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02-15-2013, 01:20 PM
  #769
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In the off-season I'd offer something based around Schneider + Booth + Ballard
JVR and Rielly are non-starters, who will not be traded. That leaves Gardiner, and he is not worth Schneider. Although, you are adding Booth and Ballard (who don't play to their cap hits) so it might work, but only if the goalie was Luongo, not Schneider.

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02-15-2013, 01:48 PM
  #770
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Slater would be amazing, He scored 21 points last year as a 3C, if the Jets are out of the playoff race, I could see them moving him.
Why? He's signed for another 2 years at 1.6M which is a good deal. The Jets have absolutely no reason to move him unless it improves their team - a 2nd round pick ain't going to do that.

I also like Zack Smith from Ottawa, but again - good player on a good deal signed for several more years.

For this year's deadline, the only realistic options are Cullen, Gordon or Hendricks, with the former two being contingent upon their respective teams playoff aspirations.

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02-15-2013, 02:05 PM
  #771
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What? They estimated him to be out 4-6 weeks. It hasn't even been 4 weeks yet (Jan19th). How does his groin issue look any different than what it was projected to be?
Was January 15th. Been four and a half weeks now. Hopefully he starts full practices with the team in the next week.

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02-15-2013, 03:01 PM
  #772
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I'd like Gillis to target Boyd Gordon at the deadline. I know he's another Right handed Centre but he's good on the draw and would help in a defensive role.

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02-15-2013, 03:07 PM
  #773
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I agree to an extent, but as much as I like Hodgson, I don't think he would have made a difference, and I think the Pahlsson experiment would have been fine if the team itself played well against LA.

As for the current situation, I think the team could use a shutdown guy, but Schroeder should stay in the lineup regardless. Knock Weise/Volpatti out of the lineup instead if you have to.

Sedin - Sedin - Burrows
Booth - Kesler - Kassian
Raymond - Schroeder - Hansen
Higgins - Shutdown Center - Lapierre
Lapierre is a shut down center when he isnt bulked up. He shut down the opposition with Hansen and Torres 2 years ago in the playoffs.

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02-15-2013, 03:11 PM
  #774
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Was January 15th. Been four and a half weeks now. Hopefully he starts full practices with the team in the next week.
Yes, it looks like more than a groin issue. Have not other Canucks gone through this very surgery? Kesler after the Cup run of 2011?

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02-15-2013, 03:12 PM
  #775
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I like what he brings to the table as far as a hockey player goes; but I'm not sure Ryan O'Hodgson would be happy with a third line C role.

Maybe Gillis should check with Ryan's Dad before making a real offer.
Hmmm... maybe I was onto something:

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Well, Brian O'Reilly didn't help move his son Ryan any closer to the Avalanche. In response to a person tweeting him today, probably over a question of "Will Ryan be back with the Avs?", @coachbri1 said this: "sorry the ave's (sic) don't want him or place value on what he brings. They practice external control boss management." A little later, he also tweeted this, unprompted: "Sure he loved it there and thought the fans were the best. So many great players the ave's dump because of their management style $$$$$." I called Brian after seeing that, and while he didn't want to say anything more publicly, it's fair to say he didn't back away from the comments. They're still there for everybody to see.

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