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Subban's play since coming back

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Old
02-14-2013, 08:46 AM
  #251
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I dont think Subbans skills are being utulized properly there should be set plays with PK to utulize his speed and skill, I dont understand why there isnt more give and goes, I think that would open up the play so much more as opposed to Subban carrying the puck through 3 zones and everybody else not able to keep up with the play, it almost looks like Gomez all over again, great zone entry but then no one to make a play with,

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02-14-2013, 09:07 AM
  #252
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Originally Posted by Nicko999 View Post
If we combine Markov (vision, intelligence, precise shot) and Subban (insane raw skills, hard shot) into one D, we have Bobby Orr.


Just ignore the date...
Finally subban got the white way. About time.


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02-14-2013, 09:08 AM
  #253
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Benn is in fact the real deal much like his boy James Neal was/is.


Kane is on another level...... This year Kane will join the elite as in the top 5 players in the world.

Sid geno steven Claude and Patrick

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02-14-2013, 09:16 AM
  #254
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I don't understand how, if you're Therrien, you bench PK in OT... Especially when you have a powerplay to end the game and he was pretty much the reason for all three goals. I can't remember which (I think it was Moen's) he shakes of St. Louis coming around the net with his patented one-arm hold-back technique. Then he shakes off a defender in the neutral zone with ease before moving the puck forward.

Do we have any other D on the team that can do that? No. Not even Markov. I can't understand why people on here continually say PK isn't on his way to being an elite D-man. I already think he is, but some people either don't watch the same games I do, or they choose to focus on that one mistake he makes rather than the 10-15 good plays.

Get him off the 3rd pairing, get him on the first PP, and for the love of God, Michel, if you ever have a PP in OT again and sit him I hope you Gerrard Gallant reaches over and strikes you.

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02-14-2013, 09:32 AM
  #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
You are just proving my point. It is ok to only judge Benn on his stats but when it comes to your boy........

Since when is it accepted logic that 38 pts for a d-man is better than 60 points for a center. That opinion is subjective at best and subject to many mitigating variables. Benn was stuck playing behind Ribeiro whereas Subban recieved all of the prime power play time due to injuries in Montreal. I wonder how many times Benn was a healthy scratch........?

I am not saying that Benn is better or vice versa but to come up with an absolute out of these stats is silly.
Benn > Subban. Only Habs fans would think otherwise (or maybe others who only watch the Eastern Conference).

A big physical centre who got 63 points in 71 games (pro-rated to 72 points in a season), as a 22 year old second-line centre, is more valuable than Subban.

Would I trade Subban for him - no, but that's because I'm aware that I have an attachment to Subban as a Habs fan.

Other than PKane, I think it's tough to argue for anyone other than Benn as the second best in that draft class.

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02-14-2013, 09:36 AM
  #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saundies View Post
I don't understand how, if you're Therrien, you bench PK in OT... Especially when you have a powerplay to end the game and he was pretty much the reason for all three goals. I can't remember which (I think it was Moen's) he shakes of St. Louis coming around the net with his patented one-arm hold-back technique. Then he shakes off a defender in the neutral zone with ease before moving the puck forward.

Do we have any other D on the team that can do that? No. Not even Markov. I can't understand why people on here continually say PK isn't on his way to being an elite D-man. I already think he is, but some people either don't watch the same games I do, or they choose to focus on that one mistake he makes rather than the 10-15 good plays.

Get him off the 3rd pairing, get him on the first PP, and for the love of God, Michel, if you ever have a PP in OT again and sit him I hope you Gerrard Gallant reaches over and strikes you.
+10.

Ya, I can't stand how PK is being used. Hopefully he can change his mind.

I've liked how he seems to be turning around his opinion on Eller. It shows he's open to changing his mind and he's not as stubborn as I'd have expected.

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02-14-2013, 09:38 AM
  #257
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Originally Posted by fufonzo View Post
Benn > Subban. Only Habs fans would think otherwise (or maybe others who only watch the Eastern Conference).

A big physical centre who got 63 points in 71 games (pro-rated to 72 points in a season), as a 22 year old second-line centre, is more valuable than Subban.

Would I trade Subban for him - no, but that's because I'm aware that I have an attachment to Subban as a Habs fan.

Other than PKane, I think it's tough to argue for anyone other than Benn as the second best in that draft class.
IMO it is apples to oranges as both players probably have very similar trade value. There is no way to definitively compare them. What I do know however, is that the people who are definitively picking Subban would be of the opposite opinion if Benn was a Hab and Subban was on Dallas.......

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02-14-2013, 11:05 AM
  #258
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Originally Posted by fufonzo View Post
Benn > Subban. Only Habs fans would think otherwise (or maybe others who only watch the Eastern Conference).

A big physical centre who got 63 points in 71 games (pro-rated to 72 points in a season), as a 22 year old second-line centre, is more valuable than Subban.

Would I trade Subban for him - no, but that's because I'm aware that I have an attachment to Subban as a Habs fan.

Other than PKane, I think it's tough to argue for anyone other than Benn as the second best in that draft class.
This doesn't make much sense.
You think Player A is better than Player B but you wouldn't take Player A over Player B. This based on superficial attachment? If Player A is better than Player B, once Player A comes here, you'll have no problem getting attached to him even more so than with Player B as you think he's better.


Benn is a center, PK is a dman. Demand/Offer determines who has more value on the market, not skills.

I wouldn't take Benn over PK because I feel PK has more upside. PK is a top pairing Dman with franchise D potential. That doesn't happen often. So far, he's also been very durable.

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02-14-2013, 11:37 AM
  #259
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Originally Posted by fufonzo View Post
+10.

Ya, I can't stand how PK is being used. Hopefully he can change his mind.

I've liked how he seems to be turning around his opinion on Eller. It shows he's open to changing his mind and he's not as stubborn as I'd have expected.
Neither do I. And yes me too, because I honestly don't know how a coach at any level, let alone the best hockey league in the world, can play Rafael Diaz ahead of PK Subban. It's just blasphemy IMO.

And as much as he's appeared to change his mind on Eller, it still hasn't amounted to much with him still playing on the fourth line, and DD who's had maybe one good game all year is still getting top-line/top PP minutes.

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02-14-2013, 12:25 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
You're probably getting a superstar with that 1st pick. At the very worst, you're getting a Subban.
Probably but it's still not worth the risk of losing Subban for a guy who might not pan out.

Even worse, that blueliner could take 3 or 4 years to develop to where Subban is now and that pushes the window of winning further out...

I understand this for a vet, but not for a young stud like Subban. Maybe if we were completely starting over the way Columbus is it would make sense but not for where we are.

Four years from now we may look backo on this and Jones could very well be the best blueliner in the league. He's got the pedigree and everyone says he's a stud. I'd love to deal for him and you could very well be right in that he'll be ultra dominant. But based on what we know TODAY, I don't see how it makes sense to trade Subban away for a pick.
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Is Subban the best player out of the 2007 draft?

Who would you most want on your team?

Kane
Couture
McDonagh
Shattenkirk
Subban

It's not typical that a 2nd rounder can be considered the best player of his draft. The other example I can think of is Shea Weber, 2nd rounder in 2003, also Chara was drafted 56th overall (then 3rd round) in 1996, and Lidstrom was drafted 53rd overall (then 3rd round) in 1989.

Benn, Turris, JVR, Alzner, Pacioretty are not in the conversation imo.
I would want Subban. The only guys in the conversation right now are Kane, Couture, Benn and Subban. For me it comes down to Kane vs Subban and I'd take PK. Kane has done more in some seasons but he's also been inconsistent. I think he'll have a great year this year but over the long haul I think PK will be better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fufonzo View Post
Benn > Subban. Only Habs fans would think otherwise (or maybe others who only watch the Eastern Conference).

A big physical centre who got 63 points in 71 games (pro-rated to 72 points in a season), as a 22 year old second-line centre, is more valuable than Subban.

Would I trade Subban for him - no, but that's because I'm aware that I have an attachment to Subban as a Habs fan.

Other than PKane, I think it's tough to argue for anyone other than Benn as the second best in that draft class.
Not true in this case man. I can see somebody arguing for Benn and there are certainly reasons to take him. But to try to say that only Hab fans would take PK just isn't true.

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02-14-2013, 12:32 PM
  #261
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I just could not believe how some of Habs' fans undervalued Subban. The fact that MT gave him only 18 minutes per game is really stupid. What does MT try to accomplish here?

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02-14-2013, 02:13 PM
  #262
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18min only in the last game. In the previous 3 games, he played 21+ min. So Subby fanboys should relax. Some seem to "undervalue" him perhaps only in the eyes of those who overrate him.

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02-14-2013, 03:13 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by Poulet Kostopoulos View Post
18min only in the last game. In the previous 3 games, he played 21+ min. So Subby fanboys should relax. Some seem to "undervalue" him perhaps only in the eyes of those who overrate him.
You make too much sense. Don't try that here.

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02-14-2013, 03:15 PM
  #264
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Best dman on the team since his return. I expected nothing less. Now lets get his ice-time back to where it belongs.

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02-14-2013, 04:01 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
Shawn Belle was crap.
The reason he was crap is because he didn't have hockey sense.

If PK were as you described, he would be Shawn Belle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poulet Kostopoulos View Post
18min only in the last game. In the previous 3 games, he played 21+ min. So Subby fanboys should relax. Some seem to "undervalue" him perhaps only in the eyes of those who overrate him.
PK should never play 18 min in a game. He should be used at 5v5, on the PK and on the PP so there's never a game where he should play 18 min. Especially a game that goes to OT.

And you can say the 3 games before that he had 21 min but the average is still 18-19 min. That's just way too low, PK is capable of playing more than 21 min anyway.

But whatever... it's only been 6 games, I'll wait until I pass further judgement.

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02-14-2013, 04:12 PM
  #266
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Best dman on the team since his return. I expected nothing less. Now lets get his ice-time back to where it belongs.
And yet people wanted him to be paid like a 4th-5th dman.

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02-14-2013, 04:24 PM
  #267
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Best dman on the team since his return. I expected nothing less. Now lets get his ice-time back to where it belongs.
Yeah! so he can become a PPG player!

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02-14-2013, 05:29 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
The reason he was crap is because he didn't have hockey sense.

If PK were as you described, he would be Shawn Belle.
What?

I meant that Pk lacks hockey sense relative to the best dmen in the league, not that he literally lacks hockey sense...

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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
How many games have you watched those guys play in?
A lot. I watch hockey everyday and some of those guys are my favorites outside of the Habs, so I literally tune in to see them.

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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
You are also admitting that your evaluation is highly subjective
Obviously my evaluation is subjective? It's my opinion. Opinions are subjective.

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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
and I'm guessing that by "seeing" you mean through your television, where cameras follow the puck only.
You've guessed right. I'm not a scout. I don't fly to Phoenix to watch Ekman-Larsson play, I just flip to channel 1420-something and there he is.

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Meanwhile, advanced stats that have proven to be a solid measuring stick, at least more so than a subjective observation through tv, are saying you are wrong.
Are you trying to tell me that I should believe these arbitrary advanced stats that you speak of, before I believe my own eyes?

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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Not sure how the two young prospects possess more abilities than PK. I'm gonna have to disagree there.
In any event, you cannot say that they are better than PK today, you just can't.

I wouldn't take Jones over PK. He is a junior player that hasn't even been drafted. Meanwhile PK has already proven capable of handling top opposition with heavy minutes.
You also talk about PK as if he has reached his max potential. He hasn't and his upside is limitless.

I don't think we're better with Hedman. I would love to have him, but he isn't better than PK.
I disagree but I'm not going to try and change your mind. That's your opinion, cool, but I never spoke of PK like he's "reached his max potential" so save that.

Though, I will say that this thread feels like the twilight zone to me. There are some seriously "out there" things being said in here. Patrick Kane, are you for real? Benn, Couture? I'm forced to assume that a lot of you guys watch zero to no western conference hockey at all.

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02-14-2013, 06:14 PM
  #269
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Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
Obviously my evaluation is subjective? It's my opinion. Opinions are subjective.

Are you trying to tell me that I should believe these arbitrary advanced stats that you speak of, before I believe my own eyes?
1st part: Yeah, your opinion is definitely Subjective, because there is tangible proof that Subban is in an other class. I can be objective and say that Subban is better, based on such proof.

2nd part: How are they arbitrary? I don't get it. Are you saying that someone else could make a better case for OEL or Del Zotto over Subban with different statistics as hard evidence? Observation is subjective, and as you said, your opinion is of that kind.

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02-14-2013, 06:18 PM
  #270
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Yeah! so he can become a PPG player!
So, because he's ppg player in limited ice-time, we should continue to limit?

Just goes to show that he deserves it

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02-14-2013, 06:25 PM
  #271
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What?

I meant that Pk lacks hockey sense relative to the best dmen in the league, not that he literally lacks hockey sense...
Well then it's a matter of degrees. His skating, balance, shot and strength is superior to most under 25 dmen. I agree that his hockey sense is not his best attribute but it's far from being a weakness. You only need to look at the 3rd goal against TB to see that, skated through from behind the net to the neutral zone and made a really nice tape to tape pass to a wide open Armstrong at full speed. And he's been moving the puck intelligently on the PP this season.

The overall package makes him part of that group of elite young dmen IMO. I suspect by the end of the season he will have improved even more and you will have no choice but to agree.

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02-14-2013, 06:51 PM
  #272
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Originally Posted by poetryinmotion View Post
1st part: Yeah, your opinion is definitely Subjective, because there is tangible proof that Subban is in an other class. I can be objective and say that Subban is better, based on such proof.

2nd part: How are they arbitrary? I don't get it. Are you saying that someone else could make a better case for OEL or Del Zotto over Subban with different statistics as hard evidence? Observation is subjective, and as you said, your opinion is of that kind.
1st part: Sorry, but that is absolutely ridiculous.

2nd part: "Advanced stats" in hockey are arbitrary imo. Hockey is a free flowing sport with too many players and variables involved in every play to accurately use "Sabre-stats". So, yes, I trust my judgement and knowledge of the sport over any spreadsheet. Especially one that apparently tells me that PK Subban is better than OEL. That right there completely invalidates those stats to me.

You want stats that I care about?
OEL at 20 years old(PK was in AHL at this age): ATOI 22:07, Coyotes Pacific division champions.
This year at 21 years old: ATOI 24:47, 2nd on his team in points.

Anyways, I'm done here. I don't care enough to continue fighting this fight. I only hope PK continues getting better, as he should, and helps this team reach the next level.

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02-15-2013, 06:27 AM
  #273
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Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
1st part: Sorry, but that is absolutely ridiculous.

2nd part: "Advanced stats" in hockey are arbitrary imo. Hockey is a free flowing sport with too many players and variables involved in every play to accurately use "Sabre-stats". So, yes, I trust my judgement and knowledge of the sport over any spreadsheet. Especially one that apparently tells me that PK Subban is better than OEL. That right there completely invalidates those stats to me.

You want stats that I care about?
OEL at 20 years old(PK was in AHL at this age): ATOI 22:07, Coyotes Pacific division champions.
This year at 21 years old: ATOI 24:47, 2nd on his team in points.

Anyways, I'm done here. I don't care enough to continue fighting this fight. I only hope PK continues getting better, as he should, and helps this team reach the next level.
It's you who's being ridiculous. YES, you should trust the stats more than your own eyes. Anyone would know as much. Your perception is biased whereas hard numbers are not. I've been reading your posts and the people answering you throughout this thread and sincerely you just look like you're in deep denial of what kind of player P.K Subban is on a NHL level. Why do you under rate him so? Did he steal your lunch money or something?

EDIT: Worthwhile to note that while you dont seem to be able to appreciate what Subban brings, the 29 other NHL GMs (and their pro scouts, for that matter) do.


Last edited by FuzzyWuzzy: 02-15-2013 at 08:31 AM.
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02-15-2013, 11:27 AM
  #274
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Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
1st part: Sorry, but that is absolutely ridiculous.

2nd part: "Advanced stats" in hockey are arbitrary imo. Hockey is a free flowing sport with too many players and variables involved in every play to accurately use "Sabre-stats". So, yes, I trust my judgement and knowledge of the sport over any spreadsheet. Especially one that apparently tells me that PK Subban is better than OEL. That right there completely invalidates those stats to me.

You want stats that I care about?
OEL at 20 years old(PK was in AHL at this age): ATOI 22:07, Coyotes Pacific division champions.
This year at 21 years old: ATOI 24:47, 2nd on his team in points.

Anyways, I'm done here. I don't care enough to continue fighting this fight. I only hope PK continues getting better, as he should, and helps this team reach the next level.
You're not making any sense.
Stats are factual, your opinion isn't. That's the whole point of it being subjective.
You are simply stubborn. You see one thing, and refuse to believe the evidence that proves you're wrong. Why? I'm not sure, especially considering you look at other stats.
You nit pick the stats. You look at the ones that favor your opinion, and disregard the many more that disfavors it.

You're not being honest. You have already agreed that your analysis is nothing more than one of a simple fan. A fan that don't even watch the player live so you only see them when they either have the puck or are surrounded by it. A lot of hockey sense plays are made before the camera moves in on a player, yet you call out PK for lacking some.
You can look at Will Smith and argue that he's 35, but yet his birth certificate puts him at 44. Point of this is eyes can be deceiving, especially when it comes to judging a hockey player. It's not because your eyes are telling you OEL (in the few games you've seen him play) is better than PK, that he actually is. Definitely not when you have solid stats opposing that thought.

OEL is ahead of PK at the same age. No denying that. In no way does that mean he's better, especially when other stats are proving the opposite. Maybe this year, he will be. Maybe next year it'll be PK. Maybe down the line, they will be exactly as efficient and it will solely be a matter of preference in style. But as of last year, OEL was not better.

TOI is relative to the team you play on as the coach is the one that will determine it. PK averages less ice time than Gorges, Emelin and Diaz. Are you going to argue they're better? PK should be our most used Dman. He proved capable of handling top opposition two years back to back. Markov is the one that we should be careful with in terms of minutes. You want him rested come POs. PK is a workhorse, he can handle more time.
Pairs should be completely changed to where players are more comfortable.

PK-Emelin (I suspect Emelin's ''struggles'' are related to him being on the right. He often battles the puck because of it and is out of position. This gives him the change to play on his natural side)

Markov-Gorges (Could either be used as a top pair or 2nd one. Gorges has always played well on the right. We should use him there instead of Emelin)

Bouillon-Diaz (What should be our 3rd pairing, that can also log in pretty good minutes if need be)


As for points, PK has 2 points less than OEL with half the games played. You should have looked at that first.


Last edited by Kriss E: 02-15-2013 at 11:33 AM.
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02-15-2013, 11:36 AM
  #275
Lafleurs Guy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
1st part: Sorry, but that is absolutely ridiculous.

2nd part: "Advanced stats" in hockey are arbitrary imo. Hockey is a free flowing sport with too many players and variables involved in every play to accurately use "Sabre-stats". So, yes, I trust my judgement and knowledge of the sport over any spreadsheet. Especially one that apparently tells me that PK Subban is better than OEL. That right there completely invalidates those stats to me.

You want stats that I care about?
OEL at 20 years old(PK was in AHL at this age): ATOI 22:07, Coyotes Pacific division champions.
This year at 21 years old: ATOI 24:47, 2nd on his team in points.

Anyways, I'm done here. I don't care enough to continue fighting this fight. I only hope PK continues getting better, as he should, and helps this team reach the next level.
One point here... 24 minutes a game on the Coyotes is not the same as 24 mins on say Boston. Different opportunities will be presented to different players depending on who else is on the bench.

It's great that you're high on OEL but based on what I've read here I don't think you're giving PK fair enough credit for the player he is. I see him as a much better player than you do. And while Advanced Stats don't tell the whole story, I'm glad to see that they support me in this case.

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