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Ruff Didn't Score Enough: Trades 'n' FAs II

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02-15-2013, 11:53 AM
  #101
michaelsaas
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
I want Oreilly more than anything. But I don't see how the Sabres can give up Sekera.

The free agent market for defensemen sucks this year...
Myers and Ehrhoff would be the only guys under contract
Weber and Brennan would be low level RFA who are depth at best.
Pysyk would be our own potential farm solution after the trade.

Leaves us in a really bad place... where our only hope is a trade, where we;d have to give up a quality asset just to get someone to replace Sekera...

I'd much rather give up the quality asset to get Oreilly
I would much rather give up Ennis than Sekera but if the AVs aren't interested in Ennis and would only do it for Sekera - I'd make that move if I was Darcy.
Then I would try and package Ennis (or if we're lucky Stafford) to get Sekera's replacement.

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02-15-2013, 11:55 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by michaelsaas View Post
I would much rather give up Ennis than Sekera but if the AVs aren't interested in Ennis and would only do it for Sekera - I'd make that move if I was Darcy.
Then I would try and package Ennis (or if we're lucky Stafford) to get Sekera's replacement.
agreed

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02-15-2013, 11:57 AM
  #103
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How about Ehrhoff instead of Sekera? I mean he does have the sexier name.

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02-15-2013, 12:15 PM
  #104
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How about Ehrhoff instead of Sekera? I mean he does have the sexier name.
All said and done, he's been one of our top 2 defenders, if not our best, since he signed here. Moving him would hurt just as much or more than Sekera. Both of them are amongst the 3 roster d-men we have signed beyond this summer; moving either leaves a big hole on our roster that would likely be tough to fill.

If we could get ROR without losing either, that would be my favorite option. ie: Ennis+ package, or a mostly futures package (maybe Stafford (retaining some of his cap hit) + Pysyk/McNabb + picks/Catenacci). Whether or not COL would accept such a deal from Buffalo is questionable, but while we have a lot of defensemen, we don't have a lot of very good ones, and any deal where we lose a good roster d-man is going to hurt quite a bit.

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02-15-2013, 12:20 PM
  #105
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Tyler Ennis was a top end prospect and still has the potential for top end talent (80pts). If Foligno wasn't having a rough start and Stafford could get the damn puck in the net, Ennis would probably be right around a point per game.

Plus a defenseman, which they sorely need, that would be the perfect #2 behind EJ? One that can play a shutdown role and has offensive skills?

Why the **** would they turn that down and instead aim for a top prospect which only MIGHT be better than Ennis or Sekera?
Your comment about Ennis is an assumption...maybe he is, maybe he isn't. I see him as a solid 25 goal, 50-60 point second line winger. I don't see Ennis as ever becoming a game changing player but rather a solid complimentary player who can provide decent secondary scoring and help pick up the slack when the first line goes through that inevitable slump.

Trades don't happen in a vacuum...Sherman needs an overpayment to pull the trigger. I think your value is good though. I think we also need to caution ourselves when it comes to Sekera. Yes, he is a good defensemen and certainly a top pairing guy ON THIS TEAM. But on most other teams he would be a stable 3-4 guy...nothing wrong with that, but nothing especially exciting as a potential trading chip either.

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02-15-2013, 12:24 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
I want Oreilly more than anything. But I don't see how the Sabres can give up Sekera.

The free agent market for defensemen sucks this year...
Myers and Ehrhoff would be the only guys under contract
Weber and Brennan would be low level RFA who are depth at best.
Pysyk would be our own potential farm solution after the trade.

Leaves us in a really bad place... where our only hope is a trade, where we;d have to give up a quality asset just to get someone to replace Sekera...

I'd much rather give up the quality asset to get Oreilly
You completely nailed it, but from a Colorado perspective, Sekera is who you want. Their 2-5 blows behind Johnson. And I think they'd also ask for Armia, because they need a RW for the future. If I'm the Colorado GM, I'm asking for Armia and Sekera. It's not Buffalo's prized possessions (Grigorenko, Hodgson, Myers) but it's high quality and exactly what the Avs need.

Regier should have submitted the offer sheet already to avoid giving anyone up, but if Colorado asked for Armia and Sekera, I'd trade and figure out the defense next.

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02-15-2013, 12:31 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Der Jaeger View Post
You completely nailed it, but from a Colorado perspective, Sekera is who you want. Their 2-5 blows behind Johnson. And I think they'd also ask for Armia, because they need a RW for the future. If I'm the Colorado GM, I'm asking for Armia and Sekera. It's not Buffalo's prized possessions (Grigorenko, Hodgson, Myers) but it's high quality and exactly what the Avs need.

Regier should have submitted the offer sheet already to avoid giving anyone up, but if Colorado asked for Armia and Sekera, I'd trade and figure out the defense next.
I know... I pull the trigger. I'd obviously much rather the deal be Ennis + D Prospect... and I'd add to that to get THAT deal...

It's usually the deal that hurts the most, that is the deal that gets it done. Sekera+Armia is the deal that hurts the most.

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02-15-2013, 12:46 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by michaelsaas View Post
I would much rather give up Ennis than Sekera but if the AVs aren't interested in Ennis and would only do it for Sekera - I'd make that move if I was Darcy.
Then I would try and package Ennis (or if we're lucky Stafford) to get Sekera's replacement.
Take the offer sheet out of the equation for O'Reilly, just for argument's sake, though I 100% believe Regier should go that route. It allows the team to keep what it has and deal from strength in young prospects to fill future holes.

This is what I'd do:

I think Colorado asks for Armia and Sekera. They need a top four defenseman and a high-end RW prospect. It makes sense for them. This stings, but I make the deal for O'Reilly.

To fill the hole in losing Sekera, I'd work with the Devils to get Tallinder. He's a short term fix, but a player that worked well with Myers in the past.

Leopold and Adam to the Rangers for Brian Boyle.

Skate this team for the rest of the season:

Vanek - Hodgson - Pominville
Foligno - O'Reilly - Ott
Ennis - Grigorenko - Stafford
Gerbe/Scott - Boyle - Kaleta

Tallinder - Myers
Sulzer - Ehrhoff
Weber - Pardy
Brennan

Get a new coach. Then work to add another RW and more defense in the off-season.

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02-15-2013, 12:49 PM
  #109
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Another idea I had.... basis of a deal....

Stafford to Pittsburgh for Maatta?

Pittsburgh's long on defensive prospects. Maatta's game looks sort of like Tallinder's to me....

?

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02-15-2013, 12:50 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
I know... I pull the trigger. I'd obviously much rather the deal be Ennis + D Prospect... and I'd add to that to get THAT deal...

It's usually the deal that hurts the most, that is the deal that gets it done. Sekera+Armia is the deal that hurts the most.
Me too. I see a logjam at LW coming if Regier trades for another center and doesn't move a LW.

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02-15-2013, 12:54 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sabresandcanucks View Post
Your comment about Ennis is an assumption...maybe he is, maybe he isn't. I see him as a solid 25 goal, 50-60 point second line winger. I don't see Ennis as ever becoming a game changing player but rather a solid complimentary player who can provide decent secondary scoring and help pick up the slack when the first line goes through that inevitable slump.
Maybe is is what? I don't understand what that is in reference to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sabresandcanucks
Trades don't happen in a vacuum...Sherman needs an overpayment to pull the trigger. I think your value is good though. I think we also need to caution ourselves when it comes to Sekera. Yes, he is a good defensemen and certainly a top pairing guy ON THIS TEAM. But on most other teams he would be a stable 3-4 guy...nothing wrong with that, but nothing especially exciting as a potential trading chip either.
I actually think Sekera would excel even more on some other teams, if he has the right coach and system.

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02-15-2013, 01:00 PM
  #112
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Maybe is is what? I don't understand what that is in reference to.

I actually think Sekera would excel even more on some other teams, if he has the right coach and system.
I'm saying Ennis might be an 80 point player or he might not be...I don't believe he is.

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02-15-2013, 01:03 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Der Jaeger View Post
Another idea I had.... basis of a deal....

Stafford to Pittsburgh for Maatta?

Pittsburgh's long on defensive prospects. Maatta's game looks sort of like Tallinder's to me....

?
It's probably a step toward MacKinnon, if nothing else.

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02-15-2013, 01:08 PM
  #114
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Avs fans have a source that says that Oreilly will not sign an offersheet

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02-15-2013, 01:10 PM
  #115
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I would only add that fan unhappiness (distain) towards the Avs (and Sherman in particular) resulting from the Stewart/Shattenkirk - Johnson/McClement trade makes it probable that trading for O'Reilly will require overpayment from the receiving party.

Many of the posts on this topic come from (naturally) a what's best for the Sabres (i.e; minimize the impact, fair value, etc.) emphasis. Sherman cannot afford to get fleeced again. The hate here for him (and Sacco and LaCroix) exceeds that expressed towards Ruff/Regier.

The fans want O'Reilly back in an Avs uniform and if he isn't, the replacements better be proven performers or attendance and interest will really fall off the cliff.

The situation is Denver is starting to resemble the old Colorado Rockies franchise (trading Barry Beck, Lanny McDonald, etc. for has beens, prospects and role players.....)

This from a former 10 year season ticket holder who will never spend another dime on that franchise.

It's also evident that that Stastny is done with the Avs. $6.6M with one year left.

Yeah, he's overpaid but also under achieving (under a terrible coach and GM) which has lowered his value.

27 years old. Not washed up by any measure.

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02-15-2013, 01:10 PM
  #116
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I think Regier will make any trade that will help the club but I doubt he sees ROR as the second coming. We overrate other teams' players to our detriment sometimes. ROR has the POTENTIAL to be a decent second line centre on a good team. What is he asking for? If it is 4 or 5 million a year then no thanks. It is not 2-3 or he would be signed. With a reduced cap next year Darcy has to keep this in mind. I am still not sold on Hodgson as a first line centre-terrible defensoively, slow for a first line centre, not a great faceoff guy- nor do I see Ennis in that role--smallish, weak great skater...My keepers in any trade are Sekera, Vanek, Pominville, Grigs, Girgs, Armia, Erhoff, Miller and Myers (though he is awful right now).

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02-15-2013, 01:11 PM
  #117
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Avs fans have a source that says that Oreilly will not sign an offersheet
His feelings were supposedly hurt in some earlier contract talks.

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02-15-2013, 01:24 PM
  #118
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I think Regier will make any trade that will help the club but I doubt he sees ROR as the second coming. We overrate other teams' players to our detriment sometimes. ROR has the POTENTIAL to be a decent second line centre on a good team. What is he asking for? If it is 4 or 5 million a year then no thanks. It is not 2-3 or he would be signed. With a reduced cap next year Darcy has to keep this in mind. I am still not sold on Hodgson as a first line centre-terrible defensoively, slow for a first line centre, not a great faceoff guy- nor do I see Ennis in that role--smallish, weak great skater...My keepers in any trade are Sekera, Vanek, Pominville, Grigs, Girgs, Armia, Erhoff, Miller and Myers (though he is awful right now).
ROR is ALREADY a good second line center on a bad team. And Paul ****ing Gaustad and Brandon Prust are making 2 mil+ at least. Guys like ROR are easily worth at least 4-5 mil. Also, you can't offer other teams spare parts (stafford, adam, brennan, etc) and expect to get a really good player back. Unless you're trading with calgary

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02-15-2013, 01:28 PM
  #119
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Some Avs fans are saying they'd want Foligno over Ennis..thoughts on that? I don't see Darcy moving Foligno after getting rid of Kassian.

It also makes sense he wouldn't sign an offer-sheet, going by his dads comments on Twitter, they are done with that organization and I don't think they'd take the risk of Colorado matching it.

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02-15-2013, 01:33 PM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littletonhockeycoach View Post
I would only add that fan unhappiness (distain) towards the Avs (and Sherman in particular) resulting from the Stewart/Shattenkirk - Johnson/McClement trade makes it probable that trading for O'Reilly will require overpayment from the receiving party.

Many of the posts on this topic come from (naturally) a what's best for the Sabres (i.e; minimize the impact, fair value, etc.) emphasis. Sherman cannot afford to get fleeced again. The hate here for him (and Sacco and LaCroix) exceeds that expressed towards Ruff/Regier.
That's the thing... usually most Sabres fans are willing to throw in the usual scrubs or underperformers in most deals, but not much of value.

But for ROR? I've seen mostly offers are ARE good deals, at least considering what other teams fans have been offering.

Offering the likes of two of Ennis, Sekera, Armia and Girgs? No fleecing there and that's a little uncharacteristic of Sabres fans as a whole, but shows how badly he's desired.

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02-15-2013, 01:44 PM
  #121
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Avs fans have a source that says that Oreilly will not sign an offersheet
Because he wants to give the Avs zero opportunity to retain him?

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02-15-2013, 01:47 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by littletonhockeycoach View Post
I would only add that fan unhappiness (distain) towards the Avs (and Sherman in particular) resulting from the Stewart/Shattenkirk - Johnson/McClement trade makes it probable that trading for O'Reilly will require overpayment from the receiving party.

Many of the posts on this topic come from (naturally) a what's best for the Sabres (i.e; minimize the impact, fair value, etc.) emphasis. Sherman cannot afford to get fleeced again. The hate here for him (and Sacco and LaCroix) exceeds that expressed towards Ruff/Regier.

The fans want O'Reilly back in an Avs uniform and if he isn't, the replacements better be proven performers or attendance and interest will really fall off the cliff.

The situation is Denver is starting to resemble the old Colorado Rockies franchise (trading Barry Beck, Lanny McDonald, etc. for has beens, prospects and role players.....)

This from a former 10 year season ticket holder who will never spend another dime on that franchise.

It's also evident that that Stastny is done with the Avs. $6.6M with one year left.

Yeah, he's overpaid but also under achieving (under a terrible coach and GM) which has lowered his value.

27 years old. Not washed up by any measure.

Given how close you are to this chaos what do you see the Sabres having to offer up to land ROR?

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02-15-2013, 01:49 PM
  #123
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I'd really prefer to offersheet him to avoid losing any players but since it sounds like we'd HAVE to make a deal, I think i'd prefer starting with ennis. Given myers' and mcnabb's regressions, the lack of solid defensemen in the upcoming UFA market, and the fact that rej, myers, and hoff are the only defensemen signed beyond next year, I think we need sekera more.
Ennis+Girgs (ROR replaces what we hope he could bring) I think could get it done. Throw in a pick or a lower tier prospect (McNabb perhaps) if they need something more to guarantee we get him.
I'm not sure if i'd move sekera for him...I probably would, but I'd think about it a lot more than moving ennis

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02-15-2013, 01:51 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Have My Baby Pierre View Post
Some Avs fans are saying they'd want Foligno over Ennis..thoughts on that? I don't see Darcy moving Foligno after getting rid of Kassian.
not super impressed with him this year, tough call, but my only super untouchable for ROR is Grigorenko

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02-15-2013, 01:51 PM
  #125
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Who is Ryan O'Reilly and what has he accomplished to warrant being traded for a guy who has outperformed him every year in the NHL (Ennis) and Sekera?

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