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Old
02-15-2013, 12:18 PM
  #251
DeuceMN
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Originally Posted by OCPenguin View Post
Avs are going no where. They ain't making the playoffs and we aren't talking about a 26-year old forward in the prime of his career bud. The Avs could use some picks in this draft to help rebuild the farm system too.


There are few guys in that organization that aren't untouchable. Hedjuk isn't one of them IMO.
I'm glad you have such a clear idea of what would be good for the Avs and how their organization could be run better.

Or, you really don't know what you're talking about.

My votes for the latter, since you prove in almost every post you only follow the Pens and have no idea about any other team.

Your opinions are fine. You make some fair points and do know the needs of the Pens well enough. You just completely undervalue every other team and their players, and frequently overvalue the players on the Pens.

Why would the Avs trade Hejduk? Have they been having issues with him, ever? Unless the Avs want to completely rebuild, they would not trade him. And they don't need to rebuild. They have a lot of great young players.

You're right not many players are untouchable.

How's this, you want Hejduk? Despres, Pens 1st and possibly a 2nd this year. Would the Pens do that? Probably not. Especially since there are other decent top 6 forwards out there that could be had more easily.

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02-15-2013, 12:20 PM
  #252
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Heatley to Pittsburgh would be fun just to see which player Ottawa boos more next time they play.

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02-15-2013, 12:24 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by NastyNick View Post
Heatley to Pittsburgh would be fun just to see which player Ottawa boos more next time they play.
if he wouldn't cost an arm and a leg trade-wise and salary-wise, i would like to see what the ****in' All-Star brings to the Pens.

sadly that is not the case in reality.

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02-15-2013, 12:31 PM
  #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OCPenguin View Post
It's simple logic from the Pittsburgh side of things. This isn't close value for Kunitz. He has more value than Seto. He has way more value to Pittsburgh than Seto would ever dream to have at this point. Kunitz is a top line guy that plays a decent two way game and adds some edge. Seto is a one dimensional player that if he isn't scoring, he brings little.

Besides, we are trying to add a winger in the top six. Doing this would make us have to add one more, or two more depending on your views of Seto. What's the point of doing this for Pittsburgh?
You're deflecting (trying to anyway) I don't care about the players involved in this hypothetical proposal as much as you insulting another poster for their idea. Who do you think you are? You're not Cliff Clavin and the truth is you don't have a clue more than anyone else around here. Just bite your tongue and be civil or bite your tongue and get out.

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02-15-2013, 12:35 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by DeuceMN View Post
I'm glad you have such a clear idea of what would be good for the Avs and how their organization could be run better.

Or, you really don't know what you're talking about.

My votes for the latter, since you prove in almost every post you only follow the Pens and have no idea about any other team.

Your opinions are fine. You make some fair points and do know the needs of the Pens well enough. You just completely undervalue every other team and their players, and frequently overvalue the players on the Pens.

Why would the Avs trade Hejduk? Have they been having issues with him, ever? Unless the Avs want to completely rebuild, they would not trade him. And they don't need to rebuild. They have a lot of great young players.

You're right not many players are untouchable.

How's this, you want Hejduk? Despres, Pens 1st and possibly a 2nd this year. Would the Pens do that? Probably not. Especially since there are other decent top 6 forwards out there that could be had more easily.
What exactly did I say that was incorrect? The Avs are going no where this year? Do you honestly think they are going to make the play-offs without Landeskog; with Erik Johnson sidelined for a while; with ROR not signed and virtually no secondary scoring too boot. It's not a great recipe for success.

The could use picks to help their farm system? Fair statement. The farm system isn't loaded at all. Several outlets have Colorado's farm system in the bottom fourth of the league. Heck, HockeyFutures has it ranked 28th - only ahead of Winnipeg and Philadelphia. It is D prospect heavy (alot like Pittsburgh's), but there is a drop off after prospect five.

Is Hedjuk a core player in Colorado at the age of 37? Nope. Maybe Colorado would be open to dealing him like Calgary could be with iginla or Boston was with RayBourque. Sometimes franchises will ask a player like Hedjuk if he wants to stay for possibly some hard times on the horizon (Chris Phillips decided to stay in Ottawa), or wants to go to a place where he would have a chance to win another Cup (Ray bourque). He wouldn't be the first guy to do that. Trading a guy doesn't mean you have a problem with him.

So, I have a problem overrating a kid like Despres, who is playing top D pairing minutes with Letang; looks very solid; has displayed great skill and can envision him as a fixture to Pittsburgh for the years to come, but you take offense when I say you grossly overrate a former 30-goal scorer in San Jose that you want out of dodge quickly and you happen to be a team that can't score. If that isn't a red flag, I don't know what it is.

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02-15-2013, 12:47 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by Mancini79 View Post
You're deflecting (trying to anyway) I don't care about the players involved in this hypothetical proposal as much as you insulting another poster for their idea. Who do you think you are? You're not Cliff Clavin and the truth is you don't have a clue more than anyone else around here. Just bite your tongue and be civil or bite your tongue and get out.
This is an opinion based board. However, people open themselves up when ideas that are not even close to being equal value, or fill the needs of one team and that team has to give up more in the deal.
People in Pittsburgh and most places would understand that Kunitz to the Wild for Seto isn't a good deal for Pittsburgh. Sorry, you took offense to my tone.

Pittsburgh is looking for a top six forward. Why trade a top line forward to get a lesser one? It is counter productive for Pittsburgh. It's something very obvious. Pittsburgh would be looking to get another one if they did that and they would lose that deal too boot.

Yes, these are all hypothetical proposals. But maybe trying to put together one that makes sense for both teams based on needs and wants would create better discussion, not battles. Lopsided proposals without looking at the needs of teams usually do.

My apologies.

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02-15-2013, 12:50 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by domaug View Post
lolwut

are you seriously suggesting that Seto/PMB for one of Malkin, Crosby, or Neal is FAIR value?

holy hell, people think Pens fans overrate their own players...
LOL no I was saying that they're are no other forwards that I would take on the Pens not named Malkin Crosby or Neal for either of bouchard or seto straight up.

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02-15-2013, 12:51 PM
  #258
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LOL no I was saying that they're are no other forwards that I would take on the Pens not named Malkin Crosby or Neal for either of bouchard or seto straight up.
No offense, but you could argue Kunitz, Dupuis and Sutter have more value than both of those guys as well.

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02-15-2013, 12:55 PM
  #259
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Pens obviously wouldn't trade Sutter and I think either one of these guys stats would be as good if not better than dupius or kunitz playing with crosby or malkin.
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No offense, but you could argue Kunitz, Dupuis and Sutter have more value than both of those guys as well.

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02-15-2013, 12:57 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Doobz89 View Post
Pens obviously wouldn't trade Sutter and I think either one of these guys stats would be as good if not better than dupius or kunitz playing with crosby or malkin.
the Pens can't afford to trade players they already know work well for them for players that MIGHT work well for them.

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02-15-2013, 01:02 PM
  #261
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Would Pittsburgh and Minny fans be okay with something like Kunitz for Seto?
Forgetting the fact Kunitz is badly outscoring Setoguchi for a second, it still doesn't work because it leaves the Pens one top-6 winger short still.

The whole point of adding a guy like Setoguchi is to fill out the X in this lineup:

Dupuis - Crosby - X
Kunitz - Malkin - Neal

If the Pens trade Kunitz for Setoguchi, the X is just moved to a different spot, so the hole in the top six isn't actually filled.

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02-15-2013, 01:06 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by Sidney the Kidney View Post
Forgetting the fact Kunitz is badly outscoring Setoguchi for a second, it still doesn't work because it leaves the Pens one top-6 winger short still.

The whole point of adding a guy like Setoguchi is to fill out the X in this lineup:

Dupuis - Crosby - X
Kunitz - Malkin - Neal

If the Pens trade Kunitz for Setoguchi, the X is just moved to a different spot, so the hole in the top six isn't actually filled.
That's why you also add PMB and a 3rd to the deal and you get PMB, Seto and a 2013 3rd for Kunitz and Despres

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02-15-2013, 01:11 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by Doobz89 View Post
Pens obviously wouldn't trade Sutter and I think either one of these guys stats would be as good if not better than dupius or kunitz playing with crosby or malkin.
Dupuis and Kunitz play better two way games than Seto for sure. Dupuis and Kunitz bust their ***** every night; every shift - especially Dupuis. He is a solid penalty killer as well. Sure, Seto might score more goals IF chemistry was developed, but he doesn't bring the other stuff to the table that Dupuis or Kunitz do. I can't say much for PMB because I have rarely seen him play in three years, but those two have more value than Seto in all-around game.

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02-15-2013, 01:13 PM
  #264
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That's why you also add PMB and a 3rd to the deal and you get PMB, Seto and a 2013 3rd for Kunitz and Despres
Why on earth would Pittsburgh do that since its giving up the best two players in the deal? This is the type of post I'm talking about in my response to another post. There is no benefit for Pittsburgh doing this at all.

If the roles were reversed and Pittsburgh were sending Seto and PMB in their current states, you reaction would be what exactly if we asked for a Despres and Kunitz? I'm pretty sure you would laugh and say no way.

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02-15-2013, 01:13 PM
  #265
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That's why you also add PMB and a 3rd to the deal and you get PMB, Seto and a 2013 3rd for Kunitz and Despres
Wait, now we're giving up Kunitz AND Despres? If that's the cost to land Setoguchi (I don't want Bouchard), then I really hope Shero doesn't pull the trigger.

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02-15-2013, 01:15 PM
  #266
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I was thinking the same thing when I read his post. You can add Kunitz and Dupes to that list as they also carry more value than Seto or Bouchard.

I find it funny as I have said 1,000,000 times. For a team that can't seem to score any goals, why are they wanting to deal a supposed 20-goal scorer in Seto or a talented forward like PMB? Sounds like they are either giving up on the season after breaking the bank on Suter and Parise, or they just don't think these two are all that and a bag of chips. Which is it?
The answer to your question is rather easy, and i'm not sure why no one has taken the time to answer it.

Their are a couple reasons Seto keeps showing up on these boards in trade proposals.
1)He isn't really a great fit on our team, but would seem to fit perfect on Pittsburgh. In our lineup he is being put in a position where he is expected to be the primary scoring threat on his line. That's not a role that he excels at. He has a good shot, good north/south speed and seems to have developed a bit of grit this year. But he's not a guy that should be counted on to be driving the play. In Pittsburgh, either on the first or second line he would not be depended on to drive the play. That's what Malkin and Crosby are for, and he could be a hell of an attribute to either of them on their line. So the trade to Pittsburgh makes sense given they have the need for a top 6 forward and primary play makers on each line.

2)Another reason Wild fans keep throwing him out there, and to a lesser extent PMB and Clutterbuck is because most Wild fans are chomping at the bit to get the youngsters in the lineup and PMB and Seto aren't in the long term plans of the franchise. Zucker, Coyle and Johan Larsson are all either ready already(won't know til they actually get their shot) or knocking on the door. But we don't have any room in the lineup for them at the moment. Getting rid of a roster forward gives us a chance to move one up(or rotate the spot based on who is deserving at the moment/takes control).

3)Also saw a different post where you said someone was saying the Wild were stacked at D prospects. Not sure who said that, but they are wrong. We have two very high end prospects in Brodin and Dumba. After that anyone else in the system is probably a 6th/7th D at best(possible exception of Cuma who has an outside shot of being a 4 if he stays healthy). One more D prospect with top 4 potential would be extremely helpful.

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02-15-2013, 01:21 PM
  #267
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I definately can see the Wild being interested in Despres. And they do have a bit of an excess of top forward prospects, not to mention Seto and Clutterbuck. I could see the Wild moving Lucia, Haula or Bulmer along with Seto and/or Cal.

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02-15-2013, 01:24 PM
  #268
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I really hope we dont move Despres unless it's for a long term elite top 6 winger.. Seto is not that.. For Seto I would much rather give Morrow or Harrington IMO

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02-15-2013, 01:24 PM
  #269
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The answer to your question is rather easy, and i'm not sure why no one has taken the time to answer it.

Their are a couple reasons Seto keeps showing up on these boards in trade proposals.
1)He isn't really a great fit on our team, but would seem to fit perfect on Pittsburgh. In our lineup he is being put in a position where he is expected to be the primary scoring threat on his line. That's not a role that he excels at. He has a good shot, good north/south speed and seems to have developed a bit of grit this year. But he's not a guy that should be counted on to be driving the play. In Pittsburgh, either on the first or second line he would not be depended on to drive the play. That's what Malkin and Crosby are for, and he could be a hell of an attribute to either of them on their line. So the trade to Pittsburgh makes sense given they have the need for a top 6 forward and primary play makers on each line.

2)Another reason Wild fans keep throwing him out there, and to a lesser extent PMB and Clutterbuck is because most Wild fans are chomping at the bit to get the youngsters in the lineup and PMB and Seto aren't in the long term plans of the franchise. Zucker, Coyle and Johan Larsson are all either ready already(won't know til they actually get their shot) or knocking on the door. But we don't have any room in the lineup for them at the moment. Getting rid of a roster forward gives us a chance to move one up(or rotate the spot based on who is deserving at the moment/takes control).

3)Also saw a different post where you said someone was saying the Wild were stacked at D prospects. Not sure who said that, but they are wrong. We have two very high end prospects in Brodin and Dumba. After that anyone else in the system is probably a 6th/7th D at best(possible exception of Cuma who has an outside shot of being a 4 if he stays healthy). One more D prospect with top 4 potential would be extremely helpful.
I appreciate your response. Finally, I do get an answer. I will agree to disagree with Seto being a good value pickup based on the opinions of what it would take to get him (he isn't worth a first, a Despres or Kunitz, or a top D prospect as it stands now). I would prefer, Clutterbuck. If not, PMB. You get him for cheap based on his injury history (say a second rounder at best) and the fact he is a UFA at the end of the season. If he works out, you can resign him in the offseason. If he is a bust, you don't resign him and aren't stuck with a salary.

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02-15-2013, 01:27 PM
  #270
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I really hope we dont move Despres unless it's for a long term elite top 6 winger.. Seto is not that.. For Seto I would much rather give Morrow or Harrington IMO
No need to give up any of those names for Seto. Shero would be a fool to do so. Morrow isn't going anywhere and neither is Despres.

If Despres does move (don't see it happening), he is in a package for a BIG NAME that is a LONG TERM solution.

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02-15-2013, 01:31 PM
  #271
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Originally Posted by OCPenguin View Post
No need to give up any of those names for Seto. Shero would be a fool to do so. Morrow isn't going anywhere and neither is Despres.

If Despres does move (don't see it happening), he is in a package for a BIG NAME that is a LONG TERM solution.
granted I dont want to give up any of those names, but we have to give to get.. not sure (outside of picks) what else we have to offer.. If we can give one of those 2 names and get Seto + A decent forward prospect, it wouldn't be the end of the world imo

I am bad at making proposals.. so that could also be pretty far off too though.

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02-15-2013, 01:33 PM
  #272
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granted I dont want to give up any of those names, but we have to give to get.. not sure (outside of picks) what else we have to offer.. If we can give one of those 2 names and get Seto + A decent forward prospect, it wouldn't be the end of the world imo

I am bad at making proposals.. so that could also be pretty far off too though.
Give to get ... if you are talking Eberle from Edmonton, Despres would be in the package along with other assets. Since you are talking about Seto, he isn't Eberle. He isn't close to Eberle, so you don't have to overpay. There are other names to be had, ones that would be a better fit than him. Resting your search on Seto and giving up a first, or a Despres, or Kunitz, or a Top D prospect is not doing your due dilligence as a GM.

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02-15-2013, 01:38 PM
  #273
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I appreciate your response. Finally, I do get an answer. I will agree to disagree with Seto being a good value pickup based on the opinions of what it would take to get him (he isn't worth a first, a Despres or Kunitz, or a top D prospect as it stands now). I would prefer, Clutterbuck. If not, PMB. You get him for cheap based on his injury history (say a second rounder at best) and the fact he is a UFA at the end of the season. If he works out, you can resign him in the offseason. If he is a bust, you don't resign him and aren't stuck with a salary.
People have differing opinions, nothing to get worked up about. Your not a Seto fan, fine. But I figure if Seto can score 19 goals in 69 games, on the lowest scoring team in the league last year. He would probably put up 25-30 in a full season with either Crosby or Malkin. He is an average top 6 forward, who will get you around 20 goals, and 40 points on an average team. With Crosby or Malkin it could easily bump up to the 50 range, maybe higher. Neal if you remember was a .65 ish PPG player prior to getting to lineup with Malkin.

If in theory a trade goes down, there will be a D prospect coming our way. Its really the only way it makes since for the Wild to do it. Whether it Despres, Morrow, Harrington, Maata, Dumoulin or Pouliot I don't really care(i'm kind of partial to Maata myself, love them Fins). If it goes down, there are bound to be some disappointed Pens fans. Ask 10 different fans, you'll probably get 10 different rankings on which prospect is better than which.

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02-15-2013, 01:40 PM
  #274
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2)Another reason Wild fans keep throwing him out there, and to a lesser extent PMB and Clutterbuck is because most Wild fans are chomping at the bit to get the youngsters in the lineup and PMB and Seto aren't in the long term plans of the franchise. Zucker, Coyle and Johan Larsson are all either ready already(won't know til they actually get their shot) or knocking on the door. But we don't have any room in the lineup for them at the moment. Getting rid of a roster forward gives us a chance to move one up(or rotate the spot based on who is deserving at the moment/takes control).
To be honest, I would take all three of them if the price was right, even if it means losing one of our better prospects. You guys would probably have to take a roster player back in return obviously (probably Kennedy), but Seto, Clutterbuck and PMB would all have a use on our team and would fit in well and set us up very nicely. To get all three I'd consider including a guy like Mattaa, for example.

I mean, consider:

Kunitz-Malkin-Neal
PMB-Crosby-Seto
Dupuis-Sutter-Clutterbuck
Cooke-Vitale-Adams/Glass/Jeffrey

That is a very good lineup. It lets us go back to the Malkin line from last year that worked so well. It gives Crosby a real triggerman in Setoguchi (who should be able to bounce back well), and a guy to work give-and-gos with via PMB. Since Crosby has developed into a more complete offensive threat (instead of being a playmaker first like he was early in his career), having a slick passer like Bouchard on his line can help; next year (or if PMB gets hurt) you can plug Bennett in there for the same effect.

Then you get a third line that has grit, speed, and some shooting ability; Cooke gets bumped down to the 4th but will get plenty of PK time and probably the occasional shift further up the lineup. Having him down there probably helps Vitale also.

That's a lineup that can go places, and theoretically leaves us with assets to get a rental defenseman if we want to. So that leaves these questions: is it possible to get all three, and what's the cost of doing so?

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02-15-2013, 01:41 PM
  #275
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To be honest, I would take all three of them if the price was right, even if it means losing one of our better prospects. You guys would probably have to take a roster player back in return obviously (probably Kennedy), but Seto, Clutterbuck and PMB would all have a use on our team and would fit in well and set us up very nicely. To get all three I'd consider including a guy like Mattaa, for example.

I mean, consider:

Kunitz-Malkin-Neal
PMB-Crosby-Seto
Dupuis-Sutter-Clutterbuck
Cooke-Vitale-Adams/Glass/Jeffrey

That is a very good lineup. It lets us go back to the Malkin line from last year that worked so well. It gives Crosby a real triggerman in Setoguchi (who should be able to bounce back well), and a guy to work give-and-gos with via PMB. Since Crosby has developed into a more complete offensive threat (instead of being a playmaker first like he was early in his career), having a slick passer like Bouchard on his line can help; next year (or if PMB gets hurt) you can plug Bennett in there for the same effect.

Then you get a third line that has grit, speed, and some shooting ability; Cooke gets bumped down to the 4th but will get plenty of PK time and probably the occasional shift further up the lineup. Having him down there probably helps Vitale also.

That's a lineup that can go places, and theoretically leaves us with assets to get a rental defenseman if we want to. So that leaves these questions: is it possible to get all three, and what's the cost of doing so?
You better if you are murdering their wing depth.

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