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Divisional pairings across conferences. (MOD: Playing Matrix)

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Old
02-15-2013, 04:42 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
Hey, now this is getting down to brass tacks.
When I say something won't fly, I mean the owners and the PA won't be able to agree on it. That doesn't mean it doesn't make sense. And, I totally agree, if you do a home/home with everyone and the rest in your group, that's really 4 conferences, not 4 divisions/2 conferences.

But, here is what we know:
Owners seem to want h/h with everyone.
Players don't seem to mind that - it seems to make travel more or less equitable. There will likely have to be care taken when scheduling road trips, etc, but it seems 'equal', so the PA will be ok with it.
Owners want the rest to be played in the group. TV start times and the money that goes along with that. Players seem to be on board here.
Playoff structure: Players say 'no way' to 7/8 issue.

Conclusion: It doesn't really make sense to do it this way (but when did this league ever make sense??), but it will be the December proposal with some tweaks of teams, like TB, Flo to the ATL to make that 8 teams, and CAR and CMB being split between the NE and CENTRAL, and PHX going to QUE. Anyway, it will be Pacific = 7, Central = 8, Eastern = 7, Atlantic = 8. So, 7/8/7/8 and they will call them the Western Conference and the Eastern Conference, even though the Central actually has no more connection to the Pacific than they do to the Atlantic.

That's what I think. There are too many teams getting what they want not to find a way to make that happen, even if it really doesn't make sense to label it that way.

Oh, and one more word: Even if they do that, Logic would indicate it would go like this:
Top 8 qualify.
First Round: Maximize intradivisional play. That means:
If the teams are 4/4 then play all intradivisional matchups
If they are 5/3 then give the top 4 home ice, and have one crossover series. It might go in order of seeding: 1a, 2a, 1b, 1c, etc: Then (home ice first) 1a/5a, 2a/next worst team, 1b/(whoever is left in their division), 1c/(whoever is left). You can't really know. But, the top 2 in points should get the bottom 2 in points. More likely is 1a/5a, 1b/3b, 2a/4a, 2b/3a and home ice in the last one goes by points. It might also go: 1a/5a, 1b/4a, 2a/3a, 2b/3b. But, one of those.
If the teams are 6/2, which is unlikely, but possible, then it should be simply 1/8, 2/7 , etc.
Second Round: Since the Top 4 seeds had home ice, no need to re-seed. The original bracket would make this round 1v4, 2v3. If there are upsets, just plug those teams in...

But, it won't go that way. That would be too 'fair', but too hard to explain.

So, the playoffs will go: Top 8 qualify. 1/8, 2/7, etc...
Again man, you're talking about a whole lot of stuff that I'm not asking about, such as the alignment, how the seeding would be done, etc. I'm only asking about doing a two Conference structure, with two Divisions in each, and doing a Top-8 Playoffs... Doing all that, while at the same time the teams in those two Divisions inside the Conference only play each other two times in a Season.

Currently, Conference opponents play each other 4 times in a Season, which isn't such a huge difference from Division opponents. But 6 x verses 2 x is a significant difference to be used in Conference Standings, don't you think?

And that's why I'm questioning the proposed scheduling format, because if they decide not to do the 4-Conference structure then I think the proposed scheduling format will almost have to be significantly modified. That's all I'm debating with you and Grudy0 about. But you guys seem to be talking around my point and not tackling it head on.

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02-15-2013, 05:10 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
Again man, you're talking about a whole lot of stuff that I'm not asking about, such as the alignment, how the seeding would be done, etc. I'm only asking about doing a two Conference structure, with two Divisions in each, and doing a Top-8 Playoffs... Doing all that, while at the same time the teams in those two Divisions inside the Conference only play each other two times in a Season.

Currently, Conference opponents play each other 4 times in a Season, which isn't such a huge difference from Division opponents. But 6 x verses 2 x is a significant difference to be used in Conference Standings, don't you think?

And that's why I'm questioning the proposed scheduling format, because if they decide not to do the 4-Conference structure then I think the proposed scheduling format will almost have to be significantly modified. That's all I'm debating with you and Grudy0 about. But you guys seem to be talking around my point and not tackling it head on.
Sorry. I often run into the problem of assuming that the other person understands more of my thoughts than he does.

So, since I guess the part in blue is the real question:
Yes, Ithink that. And, you think that. But, again, we are sitting here analyzing from the perspective that the first, most important thing is:
What makes sense in a world where the $$$ doesn't count, and we don't have to deal with 30 egos (well, 29 + Bettman. He counts more than one, I think.)

So, yes, that's a big difference to me. But, it won't be a deal breaker for the League, even if it should be. That's because:
1) A 6-division format is, as far as I can tell reading my tea leaves, dead.
2) Therefore, it will be a 4-group format somehow.
3) The owners seem to like the home/home and the players are on board.
4) I can't find another way with mostly even numbers (6s and 2s) to put the schedule together.
5) If it is a 4-div arrangement, it has to be 2-conf because of the 7/8 thing. We could argue numbers about that for a long time, but that is the PA reality.

Of course, my #3 above could be totally wrong. I was surprised how many 3s there are in this year's format.

The only other way is:
3 vs other division in your conference (21 or 24)
2 vs one division from other conference (16 or 14)
1 vs othe division in other conference (7 or 8) (these last 2 rotate)
The rest in your divison (34, 36, 38, or 39 depending...)

Which is lots of 3s, 1s, and 5s. But it does account for your objection.

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02-15-2013, 05:15 PM
  #53
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How the NFL does it. It'd be interesting to see if such an approach could be used in the NHL. Not really all that radically different from the rotating opposite conference divisions we saw before.

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02-15-2013, 05:21 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
Sorry. I often run into the problem of assuming that the other person understands more of my thoughts than he does.

So, since I guess the part in blue is the real question:
Yes, Ithink that. And, you think that. But, again, we are sitting here analyzing from the perspective that the first, most important thing is:
What makes sense in a world where the $$$ doesn't count, and we don't have to deal with 30 egos (well, 29 + Bettman. He counts more than one, I think.)

So, yes, that's a big difference to me. But, it won't be a deal breaker for the League, even if it should be. That's because:
1) A 6-division format is, as far as I can tell reading my tea leaves, dead.
2) Therefore, it will be a 4-group format somehow.
3) The owners seem to like the home/home and the players are on board.
4) I can't find another way with mostly even numbers (6s and 2s) to put the schedule together.
5) If it is a 4-div arrangement, it has to be 2-conf because of the 7/8 thing. We could argue numbers about that for a long time, but that is the PA reality.

Of course, my #3 above could be totally wrong. I was surprised how many 3s there are in this year's format.

The only other way is:
3 vs other division in your conference (21 or 24)
2 vs one division from other conference (16 or 14)
1 vs othe division in other conference (7 or 8) (these last 2 rotate)
The rest in your divison (34, 36, 38, or 39 depending...)

Which is lots of 3s, 1s, and 5s. But it does account for your objection.
No problem, MNN, it was a bit frustrating there for a while.

So you're simply saying that yes, it doesn't make sense, but you don't think it'll matter.

But then you do suggest that "only other way is"... Now I think you must be seriously joking with that. But no, it's not the "only other way. There's that way that I suggested that you said wouldn't fly:
60 games = 4 x 15
16 games = 2 x 8
8 games = 1 x 8
84 games
OR
60 games = 4 x 15
12 games = 2 x 6
10 games = 1 x 10
82 games
OR HELL
56 games = 4 x 14
22 games = 2 x 11
4 games = 1 x 4


The Bolded one with a 30-team League.

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02-15-2013, 05:40 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
No problem, MNN, it was a bit frustrating there for a while.

So you're simply saying that yes, it doesn't make sense, but you don't think it'll matter.

But then you do suggest that "only other way is"... Now I think you must be seriously joking with that. But no, it's not the "only other way. There's that way that I suggested that you said wouldn't fly:
60 games = 4 x 15
16 games = 2 x 8
8 games = 1 x 8
84 games
OR
60 games = 4 x 15
12 games = 2 x 6
10 games = 1 x 10
82 games
OR HELL
56 games = 4 x 14
22 games = 2 x 11
4 games = 1 x 4


The Bolded one with a 30-team League.
Again, as to the BOLD: It's a nice approach. I think it mirrors the NBA in some ways. But, if you do that, you really don't have 4 divisions any more, you have 2 divisions. Some might be ok with that.

I have 2 problems with it:
1) The 11 and 4 split works to me, but it is going to be hard to explain (of course, they basically do the same thing now with the 18 = 15 + 3 deal).
2) The teams that don't like the 6-4-1 won't like a 4-2-1 either because it doesn't help them.

So, I think there has to be a difference in the games vs division as opposed to games vs conference.

Now, one other possibility would be:
H/H vs other conference = 30 games (30 team league here).
3 games vs other division in your conference (You may not like that, but it is like this year's abbreviated season - 3 x 10 in fact is what they have) = 21 or 24.
The rest within division: For 7-team divisions: 28 games, so 4x5, 2x4. For 8-team divisions: 31 games, so 3x5, 4x4.

So, you might be so in favor of that, either.

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02-15-2013, 05:48 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XX View Post


How the NFL does it. It'd be interesting to see if such an approach could be used in the NHL. Not really all that radically different from the rotating opposite conference divisions we saw before.
Not all that different, and yet very different. Compare Minnesota to Arizona, for example. They may end up close for a playoff spot.

1) They don't play each other.
2) They will have 5 games in common.
2a) None from the other conference.
2b) Three in that AZ plays Det once, and MN play Det twice. MN plays Sea once, AZ plays SEA twice.
2c) One each in the crossover divisions: MN plays the whole East, and AZ plays Philly; AZ plays the whole South, and MN plays Carolina.

That's not many games in common. It's also just one example. Other examples have more in common...

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02-15-2013, 05:50 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
Again, as to the BOLD: It's a nice approach. I think it mirrors the NBA in some ways. But, if you do that, you really don't have 4 divisions any more, you have 2 divisions. Some might be ok with that.

I have 2 problems with it:
1) The 11 and 4 split works to me, but it is going to be hard to explain (of course, they basically do the same thing now with the 18 = 15 + 3 deal).
2) The teams that don't like the 6-4-1 won't like a 4-2-1 either because it doesn't help them.

So, I think there has to be a difference in the games vs division as opposed to games vs conference.

Now, one other possibility would be:
H/H vs other conference = 30 games (30 team league here).
3 games vs other division in your conference (You may not like that, but it is like this year's abbreviated season - 3 x 10 in fact is what they have) = 21 or 24.
The rest within division: For 7-team divisions: 28 games, so 4x5, 2x4. For 8-team divisions: 31 games, so 3x5, 4x4.

So, you might be so in favor of that, either.
The two Divisions issue isn't a problem, not as I see it. Especially if they want to do an approximated 1st Round Divisional Playoff. As I've been saying, there's a minimum of 6 Divisional matchups to be had, but it could be 7 or even 8. On top of that, inside the Division you know during the Regular Season that you're fighting with those rivals for Divisional ranking as well as Conference Playoff spots.

But yes, that scheduling structure wouldn't help out the CTZ teams and Detroit. But it would help Minnesota and Dallas, while keeping Vancouver with the Alberta teams. It would put at least Washington back with the Atlantic Division teams. And other alignment adjustments.

So, it's an improvement, I think. And if the PA doesn't let the League have exactly what they wanted, then this could work.


I challenge also that if the PA doesn't want the 4-Conference structure now that they're not going to want it later either. I seriously don't see the significant competition disadvantage factor with the 7/8, BECAUSE, as some here have pointed out, if there are 4 Conferences and not 2 Conferences then there isn't an East vs West, so there is not East vs West competition disadvantage. Those 8-team Conferences can be anywhere, and those 7-team Conferences can be anywhere. Regardless of how it's broken down, you're going to still have 7 and 8 team Divisions. My point here being: If the 4-Conference idea never comes to fruition, then will the scheduling format that's proposed to go along with it hold up for long in a 4-Division structure?


Last edited by MoreOrr: 02-15-2013 at 06:01 PM.
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02-21-2013, 11:36 PM
  #58
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Basically, I think these are likely options, although obviously the specific alignment groupings are subjective.

2 Conferences, 6 Divisions, 30 teams, 84 games (adjust #s with 32 teams)
6 x 4
4 x 10
2 x 5
1 x 10
Playoffs can have an approximated 1st Round Divisional Playoff (minimum 6/8 Divisional matchups, or as many as 8/8).

Alignment:
Western Conference
PACIFICNORTHWESTCENTRAL
VancouverEdmontonDallas
San JoseCalgarySt Louis
Los AngelesColoradoChicago
AnaheimWinnipegDetroit
PhoenixMinnesotaColumbus
Eastern Conference
NORTHEASTATLANTICSOUTHEAST
BostonNY RangersWashington
MontrealNY IslandersCarolina
OttawaNew JerseyNashville
TorontoPhiladelphiaTampa Bay
BuffaloPittsburghFlorida
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

3 Conferences, 6 Divisions, 30 teams, 84 games (adjust #s with 32 teams)
6 x 4
4 x 5
2 x 20
1st two Rounds are Conference Playoffs, within each 10 team/2-Division Conference, with 1 crossover matchup in both Rounds. The 3rd Round is a Conference Elimination Round in which one of the 3 Conferences is eliminated.

Alignment:
West Central East
PACIFICMIDWESTATLANTIC
VancouverDallasNY Rangers
San JoseSt LouisNY Islanders
Los AngelesChicagoNew Jersey
AnaheimDetroitPhiladelphia
PhoenixColumbusPittsburgh
NORTHWESTSOUTHEASTNORTHEAST
EdmontonWashingtonBoston
CalgaryCarolinaMontreal
ColoradoNashvilleOttawa
WinnipegTampa BayToronto
MinnesotaFloridaBuffalo
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

2 Conferences, 4 Divisions, 32 teams, 84 games (adjust #s for 30 teams)
4 x 7
4 x 8
2 x 8
1 x 8
Playoffs can have one or two Rounds of approximated Divisional Playoffs, both with a minimum of 3/4 Divisional matchups, or all Divisional matchups.

Alignment:
WesternConference EasternConference
PACIFICW CENTRAL E CENTRALATLANTIC
EdmontonWinnipeg MontrealBoston
CalgaryMinnesota OttawaNY Rangers
VancouverChicago TorontoNY Islanders
San JoseSt Louis BuffaloNew Jersey
Los AngelesDallas PittsburghPhiladelphia
AnaheimNashville ColumbusWashington
PhoenixDetroit CarolinaTampa Bay
Colorado Florida
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

4 Conferences, 0 Divisions, 32 teams, 76 games + (adjust #s for 30 teams)
4 x 7
2 x 24
+
Playoffs essentially need to be top-4 in each Conference, with two Rounds of complete in-Conference matchups. The 3rd Round is the Conference Elimination Round in which 2 of the Conferences would be eliminated.

Alignment:
PACIFIC N CENTRAL E CENTRAL S CENTRAL
Edmonton Montreal Boston Washington
Calgary Ottawa NY Rangers Carolina
Vancouver Toronto NY Islanders Florida
San Jose Detroit New Jersey Tampa Bay
Los Angeles Chicago Buffalo Nashville
Anaheim Minnesota Philadelphia St Louis
Phoenix Winnipeg Pittsburgh Dallas
Colorado Columbus


Last edited by MoreOrr: 02-26-2013 at 09:44 PM. Reason: error
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02-23-2013, 11:30 PM
  #59
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How the latest realignment proposal can make at least some degree of sense... (Well, except for the possibility of Quebec City getting a team. That scenario doesn't fir at all with this alignment.)

A schedule matix for 30 teams, 2 Conferences, 16/14 split, in a 4-Division alignment:

.
.
.
.
.
.
?

**** it! I can't figure out how it would make sense. I thought I could, but I can't. The numbers just don't work out in any logical way.


Last edited by MoreOrr: 02-23-2013 at 11:38 PM.
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02-24-2013, 12:54 AM
  #60
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Possibly an eventual eight 4-team Divisions:

Boston, Ottawa, Montreal, Quebec City

Toronto, Buffalo, Detroit, Chicago (rejoins Detroit)

NY Rangers, NY Islanders, New Jersey, Philadelphia

Pittsburgh, Washington, Carolina, Columbus

Edmonton, Calgary, Vancouver, Seattle

San Jose, Los Angeles, Anaheim, Phoenix/Portland

Winnipeg, Minnesota, St Louis, Colorado

Dallas, Nashville, Tampa Bay, Florida

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02-24-2013, 01:14 AM
  #61
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4/8 team divisions > 8/4 team divisions.

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02-26-2013, 08:04 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
Possibly an eventual eight 4-team Divisions:

Boston, Ottawa, Montreal, Quebec City

Toronto, Buffalo, Detroit, Chicago (rejoins Detroit)

NY Rangers, NY Islanders, New Jersey, Philadelphia

Pittsburgh, Washington, Carolina, Columbus

Edmonton, Calgary, Vancouver, Seattle

San Jose, Los Angeles, Anaheim, Phoenix/Portland

Winnipeg, Minnesota, St Louis, Colorado

Dallas, Nashville, Tampa Bay, Florida
Or PHX to Houston, Colorado joins the California 3, and Nashville goes twith STL, MIN, WIN.

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