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The End Of Small Talk

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02-15-2013, 04:42 PM
  #1
Habbybirthday
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The End Of Small Talk

Should we end the Small talk?

By that I mean the hundreds of comments "Our team is a bunch of smurfs" "We can't win with the small stature of our team" "I'm sick of all these midgets"

This is our team for better or worse. We should stop dwelling on that small fact. (no pun intended)

Remember '09 - '10
When a bunch of smurfs took us too the third round of the playoffs ( I know all the negative people will say yeah but then we got crushed )

1. How many teams with larger overall heights and weights didn't go to the third round that year? The bulk of NHL.

2. That team was smaller than the one we have now.

3. One of our former "smurfs" Tied the FRANCHISE record of goals scored in a single playoffs. Our franchise is old. real old. So it seems a smurf can compete... with years of big boy's.

Remember 2010 - 2011

We got knocked out in the first round of the playoffs. But of all the other teams to play Boston did you realize that no team came closer to beating them than we did?

1. If we had beat them. Man the sky would've been the limit.

2. Yes that small team never brought home a cup. Neither did 31 other teams. Many of them "big".

Love the team for what it is. Size isn't the only competitive factor in hockey guy's. Go Habs. Go Gionta, Plekanecs, Desharnais, Gallagher.

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02-15-2013, 04:43 PM
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disturbedraven
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Good luck with that. This team has a stigma, and until you replace the few short people we have (gionta, dd) then the stigma will remain.

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02-15-2013, 04:45 PM
  #3
Habbybirthday
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Quote:
Originally Posted by disturbedraven View Post
Good luck with that. This team has a stigma, and until you replace the few short people we have (gionta, dd) then the stigma will remain.
Gallagher is small too don't forget him.

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02-15-2013, 04:47 PM
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SouthernHab
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Sorry man. Nice try. The playoff run that we had a few years ago still fell short (no pun intended).

The small players we have on this team are all skilled. The problem is that the NHL rewards teams who are big, physical and skilled.

Until we correct that problem, the Stanley Cup can only be a distant dream.

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02-15-2013, 04:47 PM
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coolasprICE
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What you are saying is along the likes of


'' Just because you only have one arm doesn't mean you can't go rock climbing ''

or

'' Just because you only have one leg doesn't mean you can't run a marathon ''


So yes, just because we are smurfy / soft, doesn't mean we're not going to win the cup.

But does it help our chances? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOPE

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02-15-2013, 04:51 PM
  #6
cjbhab
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If Boston didn't choke in the 2nd round in 2010.. who knows... I think we would have beat them.

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02-15-2013, 04:51 PM
  #7
SouthernHab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
What you are saying is along the likes of


'' Just because you only have one arm doesn't mean you can't go rock climbing ''

or

'' Just because you only have one leg doesn't mean you can't run a marathon ''


So yes, just because we are smurfy / soft, doesn't mean we're not going to win the cup.

But does it help our chances? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOPE
Problem with that line of thinking is that, yes, we can finish the marathon or yes, we can climb the rock.

But someone will always finish ahead of us......

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02-15-2013, 04:52 PM
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Agnostic
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I suppose it's possible to ice a team that wears nothing but left skates too. Won't win the cup but neither will "31 other teams" (sic) either.

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02-15-2013, 05:01 PM
  #9
coolasprICE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Problem with that line of thinking is that, yes, we can finish the marathon or yes, we can climb the rock.

But someone will always finish ahead of us......
barring a miracle

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02-15-2013, 05:03 PM
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The goal should be to get better. Whether that means bigger, stronger, faster, more skilled, smarter... get better players by any means possible, at the best value possible. For the Habs, the obvious way of doing that is by letting Timmins draft BPA and retaining those players that do well. Obsessing over one specific quality does not help in finding value.

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02-15-2013, 05:05 PM
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TennisMenace
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Sorry, but no can do.
It pains me to see our team abused and beaten without any legitimate heavyweight protectors watching out.
I still remember the formula for success during the 1960s and 1970s. This ain't it brother.
I cannot be silenced; I must shout the message from the rooftops if need be.

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02-15-2013, 05:05 PM
  #12
Habbybirthday
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Short memories

What about Carboneau's team? they were a good size? great skill
Finished first in the conference twice. Never made it to the third round.

Not going to take part in an argument.

GO HABS

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02-15-2013, 05:07 PM
  #13
Habbybirthday
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
The goal should be to get better. Whether that means bigger, stronger, faster, more skilled, smarter... get better players by any means possible, at the best value possible. For the Habs, the obvious way of doing that is by letting Timmins draft BPA and retaining those players that do well. Obsessing over one specific quality does not help in finding value.
This is easily one of the smartest statements i've seen on these boards.

I completley agree. the goal is to be better. not just bigger, or better at fighting. Just to be better.

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02-15-2013, 05:17 PM
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habtastic
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Should we? Yes, since it's just beating a dead horse and the following are possibilities:

a) we can win with such a "small", but quick lineup
b) management is looking long term so they aren't worried about the size of our players currently as we've been drafting big and the so called small players would be gone in 2 years or so or sooner via trades, etc.

I don't, however think it's going to stop because people are understandably very reactionary after losses/think that the teams that win in the playoffs need the size (not saying that this is a ridiculous assertion.). I personally see our finishing as the biggest problem and often it's the bigger guys on our team who are pretty **** at that.


Last edited by habtastic: 02-15-2013 at 05:25 PM.
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Old
02-15-2013, 05:43 PM
  #15
SouthernHab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habbybirthday View Post
Short memories

What about Carboneau's team? they were a good size? great skill
Finished first in the conference twice. Never made it to the third round.

Not going to take part in an argument.

GO HABS
You remember Carbo putting Ryder in the pressbox during the playoffs?

You remember Carbo inventing the "DMan as Forward" strategy?

Carbo was a horrible coach who did not know how to use the players that he had on his teams.

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02-15-2013, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by disturbedraven View Post
Good luck with that. This team has a stigma, and until you replace the few short people we have (gionta, dd) then the stigma will remain.
The stigma of being soft and small will go when we get rid of guys like Plekanec, DD, Gionta and replace them with big talented players with grit.

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02-15-2013, 05:51 PM
  #17
SouthernHab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
The goal should be to get better. Whether that means bigger, stronger, faster, more skilled, smarter... get better players by any means possible, at the best value possible. For the Habs, the obvious way of doing that is by letting Timmins draft BPA and retaining those players that do well. Obsessing over one specific quality does not help in finding value.
Timmins BPA strategy over the last decade has resulted in what? No Cup.

Would it make sense to run a restaurant and continue to hire the best chef available while you do not hire any waitstaff? Absolutely not.

Sporting teams that are successful are that way because management uses the draft and trades to address Specific Needs of their team.

That is why we have an overabundance of small players right now. We were going after the BPA and it happened to be smallish forwards. Now, we are wondering why we do not have a team with big and talented skill players.

BPA is the rabbit hole that we went down and are now finding it very hard to get out of. BPA is also a strategy that now has 10 years of data to prove that it is an extremely flawed strategy.

Timmins needs to change his approach or be replaced with someone who has an idea on how to build a winning team based upon needs......both immediate and projected.

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02-15-2013, 06:03 PM
  #18
Habbybirthday
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patofqc View Post
The stigma of being soft and small will go when we get rid of guys like Plekanec, DD, Gionta and replace them with big talented players with grit.
G-g-g-get r-r-rid of p-p-plekanec?

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02-15-2013, 06:05 PM
  #19
Ubercron9000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Timmins BPA strategy over the last decade has resulted in what? No Cup.

Would it make sense to run a restaurant and continue to hire the best chef available while you do not hire any waitstaff? Absolutely not.

Sporting teams that are successful are that way because management uses the draft and trades to address Specific Needs of their team.

That is why we have an overabundance of small players right now. We were going after the BPA and it happened to be smallish forwards. Now, we are wondering why we do not have a team with big and talented skill players.

BPA is the rabbit hole that we went down and are now finding it very hard to get out of. BPA is also a strategy that now has 10 years of data to prove that it is an extremely flawed strategy.

Timmins needs to change his approach or be replaced with someone who has an idea on how to build a winning team based upon needs......both immediate and projected.
I have to stop you because you are blaming the wrong person. Timmins has been doing a great job. The problem is getting returns from our drafted players.

So far on top of my head timmins has already drafted a good core in Pacioretty 6"2 Carey Price and subban 6"0. We also have the new crop in Galchenyuk6"1 Gallagher 5"9 and Jared |Tinordi" 6"6. These are 6 players that will be on our top lines for sure. We still have Kristo and beaulieu who have lots of potential. So stop blaming TT because it is really annoying. He isn't a magician and picks 100% right he is human.

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02-15-2013, 06:07 PM
  #20
No Team Needed
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Blaming Timmins is hilarious.

It's like someone coming out and saying Michael Jordan isn't great because he was a ball hog.

You lose all credibility immediately.

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02-15-2013, 06:12 PM
  #21
Kjell Dahlin
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I like players who work hard every games. Talent, compete level and work ethic come way ahead of size imo. That's why I am a fan of Gallagher, Desharnais and Gionta btw.

That said, we sure could use a big and rough stay at home D in our back end... Tinordi where Art Thou?

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02-15-2013, 06:16 PM
  #22
Lafleurs Guy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Timmins BPA strategy over the last decade has resulted in what? No Cup.

Would it make sense to run a restaurant and continue to hire the best chef available while you do not hire any waitstaff? Absolutely not.

Sporting teams that are successful are that way because management uses the draft and trades to address Specific Needs of their team.

That is why we have an overabundance of small players right now. We were going after the BPA and it happened to be smallish forwards. Now, we are wondering why we do not have a team with big and talented skill players.

BPA is the rabbit hole that we went down and are now finding it very hard to get out of. BPA is also a strategy that now has 10 years of data to prove that it is an extremely flawed strategy.

Timmins needs to change his approach or be replaced with someone who has an idea on how to build a winning team based upon needs......both immediate and projected.
What are you talking about?

The guy has had mid round picks to work with and he's still pulled out gems. In '05 we get arguably the best player not named Crosby despite tons of heat. In '07 we basically win the draft and pull out one of the best players in that draft out of the 2nd round as well as Max (24th) and McD outside the top ten.

C'mon man... you are being silly here.

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Old
02-15-2013, 06:20 PM
  #23
No Team Needed
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BPA Smallish Forwards
2003: 6'1"
2004: 6'2"
2005: 6'3"
2006: 6'4"
2007: 6'1"
2007: 6'2"
2009: 6'1"
2010: 6'7"
2011: 6'2"
2012: 6'2"

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Old
02-15-2013, 06:23 PM
  #24
Gabe84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubercron9000 View Post
I have to stop you because you are blaming the wrong person. Timmins has been doing a great job. The problem is getting returns from our drafted players.
Absolutely. Had we retained McDonagh and managed our drafted assets better, the Canadiens would be in a much better spot.

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02-15-2013, 06:24 PM
  #25
Charon
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For me, it's important about being tough to play against, and that comes from:

1. Speed... it's a pain in the butt to play with a team that you can't keep up with.
2. Size... it's hard playing against guys that you can't push around, especially when they can push YOU around.
3. Skill and Smarts... You're easy to play against if you don't have the skill and smarts to execute your plays and generate offense.
4. Grit and work ethic... it's all for nothing if you're not going to try.

I think that we have a pretty decent combination of these qualities, but there are two BIG things that worry me about our current lineup.

1. Our defence is not big enough. They're certainly skilled enough, and they're probably fast enough and gritty enough. But we've got to have one of the smallest defence corps in the league. Our defence pretty much folds when we play against teams with big strong forechecking forwards, because we just don't have the size to match on the back end.

2. Our small forwards are not fast enough. Most small players who are successful in this league have usually been effective because they have an excess of the other three qualities (speed, skill, grit/work ethic). Desharnais is an average skater at best, and Gionta, at his age, is not much faster. Gallagher seems to skate well, but I don't know if it's because he's playing against lower pairing defenceman often or not.

Mind you, Gallagher's work ethic is top notch, I wouldn't want him out of the lineup right now. He's becoming one of my favourites very quickly!

IMO, if Eller proves he can produce enough to be a top-6 center then Desharnais can be traded and we solve problem #2.

Problem #1 is going to be more difficult to solve. We need a top-4 d-man with size, skill, and who can play strong positionally.

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