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Greg Sherman & Co - Record as Colorado Avalanche GM

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Old
02-12-2013, 10:53 PM
  #626
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Quincey's not good. Downie is. Sherman won the trade; both Red Wings and Bolts fans wanted/want Downie from that trio of assets. The fact that he's injured shouldn't make us go crazy here. Quincey is bad and was going to be the second highest paid player on the team with David Jones if he had to stay.
I agree that trade was great. But Quincey still was our #2 d-man so it feelt tough to give him up. But I'd make that trade any day of the week again.

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02-14-2013, 11:10 PM
  #627
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When people refer to Sherman, are they referring to Greg Sherman the individual or the group of individuals responsible for making player personnel decisions for the team?

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02-15-2013, 12:06 AM
  #628
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When people refer to Sherman, are they referring to Greg Sherman the individual or the group of individuals responsible for making player personnel decisions for the team?
It's whatever collective mess the Avs have serving as their General Manager. Sherman is just the public face, if you can call Sherman a "public" face.

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02-15-2013, 12:14 AM
  #629
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It's whatever collective mess the Avs have serving as their General Manager. Sherman is just the public face, if you can call Sherman a "public" face.
Just for your interest, Foppa2118 and I posted some quotes on page 24 of this thread regarding the goaltender coach situation. Not sure if you got a chance to look at them after we were talking about it last time.

I still believe it's a big failing of management to only have a part time consultant.

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02-15-2013, 12:35 AM
  #630
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Originally Posted by Nihiliste View Post
Just for your interest, Foppa2118 and I posted some quotes on page 24 of this thread regarding the goaltender coach situation. Not sure if you got a chance to look at them after we were talking about it last time.

I still believe it's a big failing of management to only have a part time consultant.
Thanks for pointing that out--I'm headed there now.

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02-15-2013, 12:54 AM
  #631
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Just for your interest, Foppa2118 and I posted some quotes on page 24 of this thread regarding the goaltender coach situation. Not sure if you got a chance to look at them after we were talking about it last time.

I still believe it's a big failing of management to only have a part time consultant.
Okay, well, you answered my question--yeah, it'd be nice if management broke out the pocketbook and actually hired a consultant AND a full-time goalie coach, but I don't see that happening. The good news is that the goaltending situation appears to be in good shape right now. We have two solid netminders and the prospects appear to be developing at the right pace. So having the consultant at least helps matters. At present, I'm not too concerned about a goaltending coach. When/if guys like Pickard and Aitto come of age, then yeah, I think it'll be time, or when Giguere finally leaves.

That said, it's a fairly easy problem to solve, but this organization proves time and time again they'd rather not take the easy route.

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02-15-2013, 09:43 PM
  #632
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Shattenkirk and Stewart keep piling up the points...this is going to go down as the worst trade in Avs history. Especially when Ty Rattie develops into a star.

Nice work Sherman. Freaking idiot.

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02-15-2013, 09:45 PM
  #633
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Shattenkirk and Stewart keep piling up the points...this is going to go down as the worst trade in Avs history. Especially when Ty Rattie develops into a star.

Nice work Sherman. Freaking idiot.
Is it? Or will it go down as one of the greatest? Time will tell...

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02-15-2013, 09:48 PM
  #634
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Is it? Or will it go down as one of the greatest? Time will tell...
Yep. Way too early to tell. If EJ is our #1 d-man for a decade it will most likely be a very good one.

I dont really see what Rattie has to do with this trade, there is a very small chance we would have made the exact same pick as they did. Siemens was #11, Rattie was #32. That was good by Sherm. Blues didnt expect that pick to be that high. If Siemens was worth it at #11 is a diffrent story.

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02-15-2013, 09:58 PM
  #635
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Waiting for this ROR trade is like watching a child carry a bowl of cereal across the kitchen. The potential of disaster is there, and I don't really trust Sherman. I'm nervous.

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02-15-2013, 09:59 PM
  #636
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Did he just drop his spoon???

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02-15-2013, 11:12 PM
  #637
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Yep. Way too early to tell. If EJ is our #1 d-man for a decade it will most likely be a very good one.

I dont really see what Rattie has to do with this trade, there is a very small chance we would have made the exact same pick as they did. Siemens was #11, Rattie was #32. That was good by Sherm. Blues didnt expect that pick to be that high. If Siemens was worth it at #11 is a diffrent story.
Exactly you can't put too much weight into what each team decided to do with their pick. A #11 pick in the draft is significantly more valuable than a #32.

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02-16-2013, 04:01 AM
  #638
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Waiting for this ROR trade is like watching a child carry a bowl of cereal across the kitchen. The potential of disaster is there, and I don't really trust Sherman. I'm nervous.
Apt analogy.

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02-16-2013, 09:53 AM
  #639
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Originally Posted by Bubba Thudd View Post
Is it? Or will it go down as one of the greatest? Time will tell...
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Originally Posted by Heebs21 View Post
Shattenkirk and Stewart keep piling up the points...this is going to go down as the worst trade in Avs history. Especially when Ty Rattie develops into a star.
Heebs, I believe you are entirely correct. You're going to have a hard time getting buy-in here though, because people are passionate about their team, and this is a truth that's tough to admit. A couple of thoughts on these posts:

The outcome of the draft picks isn't as pertinent in assessing this trade, because as Foppa said, you just don't know which team would have chosen which player, etc. If you do wish to include them, then that gives everyone lots of years to assess the trade and potentially hold off admitting what you and I are now thinking - that the Avs got fleeced here. In truth, I'm wondering how long "time will tell" should encompass. Should we wait until all players involved are retired, then figure it out? I'm perfectly OK waiting another year or two to assess it with finality, but I sure don't like how it's trending right now.

Right now, there is no comparison whatsoever. Shattenkirk is worlds better than EJ offensively, and while he's not as good as EJ defensively, he's solid. And are you ready for the kicker? No one else wants to bring this up, so I'll do it:

If Shattenkirk keeps scoring at this pace and playing solid D, he's going to be in the Norris discussion.

Even if we don't believe he could keep his current point-per-game pace, we can look at a larger number of games - Over the last half season's worth of games (41 is the number I counted), Shattenkirk has 34 points, which is a 68 point pace. Karlsson won the Norris last year with 78 points. Lidstrom won the year before with 62 points. Keith won the year before that with 69 points. So, Shattenkirk's right there. And if Shattenkirk is in the Norris discussion, I don't see how this point can be reasonably argued anymore. I really don't. Discussions about this trade "being one of the greatest" are in a distant orbit indeed. Shattenkirk would have to fall off the face of the earth, or Siemens turn into Denis Potvin, or EJ turn into Lidstrom offensively - something drastic from where we are today. Possible? Sure. Likely? Not so sure.

And we're not even talking about Chris Stewart, who is proving that he's a 25 goal guy. He's only really useful at one end of the ice, true. But can't we say the same about EJ? I mean, I like the guy a lot - he's a good defensive defenseman. But he's simply not scoring. I hope like hell that it comes at some point. But it's just not happening. And as I said in an earlier post, I don't completely buy this notion that EJ is a victim of his D-mates. There are a number of NHL defensemen out there on crap teams with crap bluelines, who are scoring OK.

So in the end, one of two things has happened, IMO. Either Sacco has ruined EJ's offensive game, or EJ's offensive rookie season was a fluke and he's never likely to repeat it (kind of analagous to what we're seeing with Paul Stastny's degradation of offensive output - doesn't mean he's a bad player, but he's not a top-end offensive talent anymore).

My belief is the latter, and I believe the Blues knew it at the time. So, the Avs got themselves someone who could someday be one of the better defensive defensemen in the game, and one with better than average foot speed and stick skills for a defensive defenseman. Which is a great thing for a team to have. But if that's what he's going to be, they made a staggering, harmful overpayment to get him.

What would have made perfect sense, would have been EJ for Stewart straight up. Two big, young, early-in-their-careers-productive guys who are pretty one-dimensional (one defensively, one offensively), but pretty darn good at their one dimension. Maybe the Avs would have had to throw in a 2nd round pick or something - whatever. That would have been a reasonable trade.

Adding Shattenkirk to it was Sherman's mistake. And it was a big mistake.


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02-16-2013, 10:50 AM
  #640
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Heebs, I believe you are entirely correct. You're going to have a hard time getting buy-in here though, because people are passionate about their team, and this is a truth that's tough to admit. A couple of thoughts on these posts:

The outcome of the draft picks isn't as pertinent in assessing this trade, because as Foppa said, you just don't know which team would have chosen which player, etc. If you do wish to include them, then that gives everyone lots of years to assess the trade and potentially hold off admitting what you and I are now thinking - that the Avs got fleeced here. In truth, I'm wondering how long "time will tell" should encompass. Should we wait until all players involved are retired, then figure it out? I'm perfectly OK waiting another year or two to assess it with finality, but I sure don't like how it's trending right now.

Right now, there is no comparison whatsoever. Shattenkirk is worlds better than EJ offensively, and while he's not as good as EJ defensively, he's solid. And are you ready for the kicker? No one else wants to bring this up, so I'll do it:

If Shattenkirk keeps scoring at this pace and playing solid D, he's going to be in the Norris discussion.

Even if we don't believe he could keep his current point-per-game pace, we can look at a larger number of games - Over the last half season's worth of games (41 is the number I counted), Shattenkirk has 34 points, which is a 68 point pace. Karlsson won the Norris last year with 78 points. Lidstrom won the year before with 62 points. Keith won the year before that with 69 points. So, Shattenkirk's right there. And if Shattenkirk is in the Norris discussion, I don't see how this point can be reasonably argued anymore. I really don't. Discussions about this trade "being one of the greatest" are in a distant orbit indeed. Shattenkirk would have to fall off the face of the earth, or Siemens turn into Denis Potvin, or EJ turn into Lidstrom offensively - something drastic from where we are today. Possible? Sure. Likely? Not so sure.

And we're not even talking about Chris Stewart, who is proving that he's a 25 goal guy. He's only really useful at one end of the ice, true. But can't we say the same about EJ? I mean, I like the guy a lot - he's a good defensive defenseman. But he's simply not scoring. I hope like hell that it comes at some point. But it's just not happening. And as I said in an earlier post, I don't completely buy this notion that EJ is a victim of his D-mates. There are a number of NHL defensemen out there on crap teams with crap bluelines, who are scoring OK.

So in the end, one of two things has happened, IMO. Either Sacco has ruined EJ's offensive game, or EJ's offensive rookie season was a fluke and he's never likely to repeat it (kind of analagous to what we're seeing with Paul Stastny's degradation of offensive output - doesn't mean he's a bad player, but he's not a top-end offensive talent anymore).

My belief is the latter, and I believe the Blues knew it at the time. So, the Avs got themselves someone who could someday be one of the better defensive defensemen in the game, and one with better than average foot speed and stick skills for a defensive defenseman. Which is a great thing for a team to have. But if that's what he's going to be, they made a staggering, harmful overpayment to get him.

What would have made perfect sense, would have been EJ for Stewart straight up. Two big, young, early-in-their-careers-productive guys who are pretty one-dimensional (one defensively, one offensively), but pretty darn good at their one dimension. Maybe the Avs would have had to throw in a 2nd round pick or something - whatever. That would have been a reasonable trade.

Adding Shattenkirk to it was Sherman's mistake. And it was a big mistake.
Excellent post. As for me and getting acceptance in here: I could care less. I have been cheering for this team since they moved and I was a Nordiques fan for 10 years before that. It is a horrible thing to see one GM completely ruin such a strong, proud franchise.

The scariest thing about Sherman is that he didn't just have one bad deal.

He gave Liles away for nothing. Zip. Liles was a big part of our team and he would be a HUGE welcomed addition.

Then there is the Varlamov trade. I love Varlamov, dont get me wrong but a re-building team trading away top picks for a young, un-proven goalie playing infront of a young, un-proven team is not a great idea. We had a good goalie in Craig Anderson but Sherman over-reacted and yet again, shipped him away for nothing.

Teams are winning with the likes of Corey Crawford, Craig Anderson, Antti Niemmi, James Reimer....etc. Sherman yet again, over-reacted and gave up valuable picks for a RFA who probably wasn't going to be a part of Washington. The debate goes on and on but the simple fact is that we had a good goalie, and our inept GM over-reacted.

We have no-prospects in the farm when we could have had Fillip Forsberg, could have drafted Ty Rattie and would have a 2nd round pick this year. Sherman's signings have been horrific aside from PA Parenteau and John Mitchell but that is a whole other story.

This guy has failed Avalanche fans and set this team back for a decade and he rewarded a coach who is killing our young players progress with a two year extension. From top to bottom this team is a joke.

Now we have to wait to see how he will butcher the O'Reilly trade and butcher a top 3 pick.

We should be watching Shattenkirk, Stewart, Liles and Anderson carry this team. We should have young stars like Forsberg and Rattie waiting in the wings. But instead, we have one of the most over-rated defensemen in the league and a young, un-proven goalie who cannot carry this team on his own.

The future looks bright with Sherman in charge!!


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02-16-2013, 10:57 AM
  #641
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Adding Shattenkirk to it was Sherman's mistake. And it was a big mistake.
I always pictured that trade to be
Shattenkirk-> Johnson
Stewart->1st (11th overall)
2nd (32nd overall) -> McClement.

I think the only part where the Avs might have overpayed was the 2nd round pick, which should've been a 3rd.

Now in hindsight it's easy to say we lost cause McClement didn't want to stay here, but valuewise it was a good trade.

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02-16-2013, 11:32 AM
  #642
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We still haven't seen EJ reach his potential, and until there is a coaching change we will not. Sacco plays as safe a game as possible. He doesn't develop players. I have seen glimpses from EJ that he can be a good top pairing defender. Sacco doesn't give him the chance to take the ball though. He keeps feeding him 18-21 minutes a night. Sherman is largely at fault for this. He should recognize that Sacco isn't developing these kids. That is the issue with having a man who knows nothing about hockey in the GM seat.

I honestly would love to have a 1 on 1 chat with Sherman. I would envision Sherman putting on his suit and Lacroix and Sakic quizzing him and telling him what to say like a politician getting ready for a debate. I guarantee I know more about the game itself. The reason he has seemed somewhat successful is because he is listening to exactly what the scouts tell him to do. Most GM's have their own thoughts on players and prospects, but he just listens and we have a good group of scouts to listen to.

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02-16-2013, 12:40 PM
  #643
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Excellent post. As for me and getting acceptance in here: I could care less. I have been cheering for this team since they moved and I was a Nordiques fan for 10 years before that. It is a horrible thing to see one GM completely ruin such a strong, proud franchise.

The scariest thing about Sherman is that he didn't just have one bad deal.

He gave Liles away for nothing. Zip. Liles was a big part of our team and he would be a HUGE welcomed addition.

Then there is the Varlamov trade. I love Varlamov, dont get me wrong but a re-building team trading away top picks for a young, un-proven goalie playing infront of a young, un-proven team is not a great idea. We had a good goalie in Craig Anderson but Sherman over-reacted and yet again, shipped him away for nothing.

Teams are winning with the likes of Corey Crawford, Craig Anderson, Antti Niemmi, James Reimer....etc. Sherman yet again, over-reacted and gave up valuable picks for a RFA who probably wasn't going to be a part of Washington. The debate goes on and on but the simple fact is that we had a good goalie, and our inept GM over-reacted.

We have no-prospects in the farm when we could have had Fillip Forsberg, could have drafted Ty Rattie and would have a 2nd round pick this year. Sherman's signings have been horrific aside from PA Parenteau and John Mitchell but that is a whole other story.

This guy has failed Avalanche fans and set this team back for a decade and he rewarded a coach who is killing our young players progress with a two year extension. From top to bottom this team is a joke.

Now we have to wait to see how he will butcher the O'Reilly trade and butcher a top 3 pick.

We should be watching Shattenkirk, Stewart, Liles and Anderson carry this team. We should have young stars like Forsberg and Rattie waiting in the wings. But instead, we have one of the most over-rated defensemen in the league and a young, un-proven goalie who cannot carry this team on his own.

The future looks bright with Sherman in charge!!
The Liles trade was a straight salary dump. When you cut loose $4M in salary and don't take similar salary back, you take it in the shorts. Which Sherman did. And I believe since they dumped both Liles and Shattenkirk in the same few months, they *really* overestimated both EJ's and Elliott's (and perhaps Barrie's) readiness to create offense from a NHL blueline. Yikes.

Agreed totally on the Varlamov/Anderson situation. The Avs are basically in the same place as they were in Anderson, minus two draft picks. The team isn't any better. Unless of course you read into the "Anderson tanked games purposefully" conspiracy theory stuff. Which I do not.

I also am very concerned about what this O'Reilly trade will look like. Very concerned, indeed. I hope he does nothing, and everyone calms down over the Summer.

In the end, the Avs have two really good players in Varlamov and EJ, which is good. But they overpaid dearly for both, the team isn't any better than they would have been if they didn't make those moves, and the rebuild is likely now pushed out a year or two.

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02-16-2013, 12:48 PM
  #644
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I always pictured that trade to be
Shattenkirk-> Johnson
Stewart->1st (11th overall)
2nd (32nd overall) -> McClement.

I think the only part where the Avs might have overpayed was the 2nd round pick, which should've been a 3rd.

Now in hindsight it's easy to say we lost cause McClement didn't want to stay here, but valuewise it was a good trade.
To me that doesn't make sense, respectfully.

Because at the time, we had Chris Stewart - big, fast, 240lbs, 22 years old, coming off a 28 goal season, and on pace for another one (prior to breaking his hand). And we had Erik Johnson - big, fast, 22 years old, coming off a pretty awesome first season, and having an OK 2nd season.

Then we had a small Kevin Shattenkirk in the midst of his rookie season, where he was playing pretty well offensively, and dreadfully defensively.

If we line up the value of those three guys - at that time - which two are easily 1-2?

There's no doubt in my mind that the main part of this trade was EJ-Stewart. And I believe that most people would rank a legit 6'4" 1st pairing defenseman as more valuable than a one-dimensional power forward, even a good one. So the Avs had to up the ante.

They upped too much.

And then the defenseman they got turned out to be pretty one-way.

And even if the combinations match what you have written above, a high 2nd round pick for a slow 4th line center is an insipid exchange. Even Mike Milbury wouldn't do such a thing.

Finally, McClement leaving the Avs has almost nothing to do with the overall value or "winner" of the trade. Anything he did or didn't do is relatively meaningless in the grand scheme of the trade. McClement was a rather ordinary 4th line player, very easily replaced. As we have seen with Mitchell.


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02-16-2013, 12:52 PM
  #645
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We still haven't seen EJ reach his potential, and until there is a coaching change we will not.
Well, EJ is now 24 years old. At what age are we going to accept that he is what he is and that there really isn't any more potential to attain? Do you expect significant development to occur until he's 30 or something?

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02-16-2013, 12:54 PM
  #646
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The Liles trade was a straight salary dump. When you cut loose $4M in salary and don't take similar salary back, you take it in the shorts. Which Sherman did. And I believe since they dumped both Liles and Shattenkirk in the same few months, they *really* overestimated both EJ's and Elliott's (and perhaps Barrie's) readiness to create offense from a NHL blueline. Yikes.

Agreed totally on the Varlamov/Anderson situation. The Avs are basically in the same place as they were in Anderson, minus two draft picks. The team isn't any better. Unless of course you read into the "Anderson tanked games purposefully" conspiracy theory stuff. Which I do not.

I also am very concerned about what this O'Reilly trade will look like. Very concerned, indeed. I hope he does nothing, and everyone calms down over the Summer.

In the end, the Avs have two really good players in Varlamov and EJ, which is good. But they overpaid dearly for both, the team isn't any better than they would have been if they didn't make those moves, and the rebuild is likely now pushed out a year or two.
I don't necessarily think that Anderson "tanked games on purpose". But the stats do speak for themselves. After the Avs made their initial offer, he wanted more. Whether it was more dollars or years, he wanted something more and the Avs didn't feel like giving it at the time.

And after that moment things just started happening one after another. He left the team for what was described as "personal reasons", and on top of that he just appeared to not want to be playing on the team anymore.

It is curious that he signed for less with Ottawa...though that deal had 1 more year than the Avs were offering I believe.

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02-16-2013, 12:56 PM
  #647
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I don't necessarily think that Anderson "tanked games on purpose". But the stats do speak for themselves. After the Avs made their initial offer, he wanted more. Whether it was more dollars or years, he wanted something more and the Avs didn't feel like giving it at the time.

And after that moment things just started happening one after another. He left the team for what was described as "personal reasons", and on top of that he just appeared to not want to be playing on the team anymore.

It is curious that he signed for less with Ottawa...though that deal had 1 more year than the Avs were offering I believe.
He wanted more years IIRC.

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02-16-2013, 01:00 PM
  #648
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
To me that doesn't make sense, respectfully.

Because at the time, we had Chris Stewart - big, fast, 240lbs, 22 years old, coming off a 28 goal season, and on pace for another one (prior to breaking his hand). And we had Erik Johnson - big, fast, 22 years old, coming off a pretty awesome first season, and having an OK 2nd season.

Then we had a small Kevin Shattenkirk in the midst of his rookie season, where he was playing pretty well offensively, and dreadfully defensively.

If we line up the value of those three guys - at that time - which two are easily 1-2?

There's no doubt in my mind that the main part of this trade was EJ-Stewart. And I believe that most people would rank a legit 6'4" 1st pairing defenseman as more valuable than a one-dimensional power forward, even a good one. So the Avs had to up the ante.

They upped too much.

And then the defenseman they got turned out to be pretty one-way.

And even if the combinations match what you have written above, a high 2nd round pick for a slow 4th line center is an insipid exchange. Even Mike Milbury wouldn't do such a thing.

Finally, McClement leaving the Avs has almost nothing to do with the overall value or "winner" of the trade. Anything he did or didn't do is relatively meaningless in the grand scheme of the trade. McClement was a rather ordinary 4th line player, very easily replaced. As we have seen with Mitchell.
Absolutely. And everyone keeps waffling over Stewart. He scores a couple goals, and we lost the trade. Then he disappears completely for an entire season and is rumored trade bate and every thinks he sucks, and sites his attitude and work ethic problems. Now he's scored a few goals ten or so games into the season, and he's this franchise player again.

Give it a few full seasons, then we can judge what kind of player Stewart is, and if EJ can get to another level offensively, playing with the right partner and coach. I'm pretty convinced he can't with the current makeup, but think he has a decent chance with a legit coach with a system, and a capable partner to feed off.

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Old
02-16-2013, 01:08 PM
  #649
Nzap
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
To me that doesn't make sense, respectfully.
Okay let's turn it this way:

Johnson->Stewart+2nd
McClement +1st -> Shattenkirk
(and yes I understand that it's more or less unnecessary to put the trade like this, but for me it's easier to evaluate)
Johnson for sure was more valuable than Stewart for sure, and even with the 2nd I think Johnson has at least some more value.

A 1st for Shattenkirk was already better value than he had at the moment and they could squeeze out McClement as well which the Avs needed (a PK specialist) and who knew he would bolt when he got the chance.

For me, which ever way you put the trade it was very even at the time.
Of course what has happened after the trade puts the trade in St. Louis favor, but trades are either valued at the moment they occur or then much later when everything has settled.
People keep saying we overpayed for Varly even though now most of us would love having him for only a 1st and 2nd. It still was an overpayment at the time and that will never change.

So to summarize: the Avs-Blues trade was fair value at the moment of the trade, but what has happened since the trade (Shattenkirk development, EJ having to play under Sacco+with scrubs, McClement bolting off, Rattie falling into the Blues' lap) has put the trade in favor of the Blues. And that is in some extent on Sherman cause Shatty was always going to improve, but certainly does not deserve the flack you give him for it.


Last edited by Nzap: 02-16-2013 at 01:13 PM.
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Old
02-16-2013, 01:20 PM
  #650
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
Well, EJ is now 24 years old. At what age are we going to accept that he is what he is and that there really isn't any more potential to attain? Do you expect significant development to occur until he's 30 or something?
Defensemen often don't reach potential until their late 20's.

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