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Jets - Free Agents, Trades, Rumors, Speculation - 2012-13 (Part XI)

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Old
02-16-2013, 07:34 AM
  #401
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Originally Posted by jetkarma View Post
I agree it isn't squat. Right now Little is affecting more games bottom line than Burmistrov. So if Burmistrov doesn't dramatically improve his production then Little instead of him is a higher payment.

"Looks like he might develop" that is banking on that happening and there is far from universal agreement on that actually occurring .What is contribute offensively ? 15 goals 40 points over 80 games?
At some point Burmistrov has to start to produce imo , at some point if he doesn't , his value is quite a bit less. That is something I am sure is being thought about.

Like I said , I doubt that makes Colorado make that trade.
The thing is people are banking on ROR developing too as his numbers were pretty average last year why do you think Colorado are so hesitant to throw 5 mil at him

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02-16-2013, 08:04 AM
  #402
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The thing is people are banking on ROR developing too as his numbers were pretty average last year why do you think Colorado are so hesitant to throw 5 mil at him
They're hesitant because they have a lot of young players that will be coming up for new contracts in the next few years and they're trying to avoid a contract that will be used as the baseline in those negotiations.

They fought tooth and nail to keep Duchene to a bridge contract after his ELC expired. They're doing the same with ROR. They'll do the same with Landeskog.

Duchene and Landeskog will be up again next summer along with McGinn and Varlamov. They've recognized that they need to be very careful in their early contracts because deal can, and will be, used as precedence.

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02-16-2013, 09:41 AM
  #403
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Originally Posted by almostawake View Post
They're hesitant because they have a lot of young players that will be coming up for new contracts in the next few years and they're trying to avoid a contract that will be used as the baseline in those negotiations.

They fought tooth and nail to keep Duchene to a bridge contract after his ELC expired. They're doing the same with ROR. They'll do the same with Landeskog.

Duchene and Landeskog will be up again next summer along with McGinn and Varlamov. They've recognized that they need to be very careful in their early contracts because deal can, and will be, used as precedence.
Agreed. As far as developing , one of the players actually has and produced to a degree that would look great on the other . Probably no point as I doubt Colorado would take that package anyway.

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02-16-2013, 12:38 PM
  #404
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Originally Posted by almostawake View Post
They're hesitant because they have a lot of young players that will be coming up for new contracts in the next few years and they're trying to avoid a contract that will be used as the baseline in those negotiations.

They fought tooth and nail to keep Duchene to a bridge contract after his ELC expired. They're doing the same with ROR. They'll do the same with Landeskog.

Duchene and Landeskog will be up again next summer along with McGinn and Varlamov. They've recognized that they need to be very careful in their early contracts because deal can, and will be, used as precedence.
It's nice to see an org. being responsible, and part of that can be attributed to the new CBA.

I think ROR's contract demands make his worth less on the open market. I don't think that Colorado will get fair value for him because of it.

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02-16-2013, 01:18 PM
  #405
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One of the issues fans face that GMs should not is that trades are a part of a business strategy and not personal. Chevy has a problem!

You trade a player when their value is at its highest point, not its lowest. Players like Burmi and Kane are currently in high positions. So is Buff and Enstrom - they are in their primes and we can rebuild very quickly if you are landing 2-3-4-5 first round picks. While they may be essential for the team NOW, if there is a true idea of building for the future - they should be traded while their value is sky high. Waiting, like we did with Wheeler, Antropov and even Wellwood last year did nothing and now they are scraps. Trading each of those players for a 2-3rd pick last year creates options. FA even allows the team to even get them back and receive picks.

This is the problem with Chevy - his heart is in this thing. If we are realistic about building like Nashville, etc. you have to act like it. Being dismissive and searching the waiver wire for castaways is nuts ... it's avoiding the real problem. Our D sucks, our F suck, the G is terrible and the coach can't motivate. I'm unsure what Chevy is waiting for. Once the fans begin to get on this team (and it has begun) watch out! Our players will lose value. Kane's value, due to a stupid picture has already left some fans in Winnipeg and other teams wondering. This is the problem! This GM over values our players and trades them when they are at their lowest point. Jets like a fan would.

A sign of some troubling things ahead if you ask me.

Winnipeg Jets: Fuelled by Patience (not passion)

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02-16-2013, 01:26 PM
  #406
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcanuck View Post
One of the issues fans face that GMs should not is that trades are a part of a business strategy and not personal. Chevy has a problem!

You trade a player when their value is at its highest point, not its lowest. Players like Burmi and Kane are currently in high positions. So is Buff and Enstrom - they are in their primes and we can rebuild very quickly if you are landing 2-3-4-5 first round picks. While they may be essential for the team NOW, if there is a true idea of building for the future - they should be traded while their value is sky high. Waiting, like we did with Wheeler, Antropov and even Wellwood last year did nothing and now they are scraps. Trading each of those players for a 2-3rd pick last year creates options. FA even allows the team to even get them back and receive picks.

This is the problem with Chevy - his heart is in this thing. If we are realistic about building like Nashville, etc. you have to act like it. Being dismissive and searching the waiver wire for castaways is nuts ... it's avoiding the real problem. Our D sucks, our F suck, the G is terrible and the coach can't motivate. I'm unsure what Chevy is waiting for. Once the fans begin to get on this team (and it has begun) watch out! Our players will lose value. Kane's value, due to a stupid picture has already left some fans in Winnipeg and other teams wondering. This is the problem! This GM over values our players and trades them when they are at their lowest point. Jets like a fan would.

A sign of some troubling things ahead if you ask me.

Winnipeg Jets: Fuelled by Patience (not passion)
I don't get this though. Why do you trade away pieces that can help you win to acquire draft picks that may or may not develop into pieces that may help you win in the future?

It doesn't make sense. A bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush. If you wanted to trade say, Kane, because you thought he was too one dimensional or causes problems, then I get that. However, he is a player that other GM's would trade actual young NHL'ers for. Those players are ALWAYS worth more than draft picks.

If you want to trade a guy like Antropov because you don't see us making the playoffs. I get that too. He and Hainsey are the kinds of guys that trading for picks make sense.

If you are talking about trading a guy like Burmistrov for picks, you lost me. This guy is right on the edge of being a very important hockey player to a winning team. He is a core piece and you don't move that, unless you are getting a core piece back.

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02-16-2013, 01:53 PM
  #407
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Originally Posted by pcanuck View Post
One of the issues fans face that GMs should not is that trades are a part of a business strategy and not personal. Chevy has a problem!

You trade a player when their value is at its highest point, not its lowest. Players like Burmi and Kane are currently in high positions. So is Buff and Enstrom - they are in their primes and we can rebuild very quickly if you are landing 2-3-4-5 first round picks. While they may be essential for the team NOW, if there is a true idea of building for the future - they should be traded while their value is sky high. Waiting, like we did with Wheeler, Antropov and even Wellwood last year did nothing and now they are scraps. Trading each of those players for a 2-3rd pick last year creates options. FA even allows the team to even get them back and receive picks.

This is the problem with Chevy - his heart is in this thing. If we are realistic about building like Nashville, etc. you have to act like it. Being dismissive and searching the waiver wire for castaways is nuts ... it's avoiding the real problem. Our D sucks, our F suck, the G is terrible and the coach can't motivate. I'm unsure what Chevy is waiting for. Once the fans begin to get on this team (and it has begun) watch out! Our players will lose value. Kane's value, due to a stupid picture has already left some fans in Winnipeg and other teams wondering. This is the problem! This GM over values our players and trades them when they are at their lowest point. Jets like a fan would.

A sign of some troubling things ahead if you ask me.

Winnipeg Jets: Fuelled by Patience (not passion)
Who does this sentence apply to?

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Old
02-16-2013, 02:20 PM
  #408
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I don't get this though. Why do you trade away pieces that can help you win to acquire draft picks that may or may not develop into pieces that may help you win in the future?

It doesn't make sense. A bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush. If you wanted to trade say, Kane, because you thought he was too one dimensional or causes problems, then I get that. However, he is a player that other GM's would trade actual young NHL'ers for. Those players are ALWAYS worth more than draft picks.

If you want to trade a guy like Antropov because you don't see us making the playoffs. I get that too. He and Hainsey are the kinds of guys that trading for picks make sense.

If you are talking about trading a guy like Burmistrov for picks, you lost me. This guy is right on the edge of being a very important hockey player to a winning team. He is a core piece and you don't move that, unless you are getting a core piece back.
Because this is how armchair gm works.
Draft picks>prospects>roster
Burmi and Kane are 3-4 years out of draft... If we traded for draft picks cos of "highest value" (which I'd like to know how he can tell the future, especially when players usually peek at 24-25 for pts/gp so it is highly unlikely) like that we'd become a yearly bottom team and become the farm team for the NHL

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02-16-2013, 02:24 PM
  #409
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Agreed.

Little + Postma has been a price bandied around on other boards as well. I'd pull the trigger on that deal if it were up to me.
My preference as well.

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02-16-2013, 02:32 PM
  #410
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ROR isn't a core piece then? Well ok , but Burmistrov is? A hockey guy used to say about some trades " ***** for cr*p " , you aren't getting ROR for that and if you expect to trade for him you also have to expect to give up real assets , imo.

You determine if the cost is worth the return , or not. The goal is to make your team better , and you do that if, when you can. Certainly we can all agree that is needed for this team , no one can position this as we don't need to improve can they?

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02-16-2013, 02:35 PM
  #411
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Originally Posted by jetkarma View Post
ROR isn't a core piece then? Well ok , but Burmistrov is? A hockey guy used to say about some trades " ***** for cr*p " , you aren't getting ROR for that and if you expect to trade for him you also have to expect to give up real assets , imo.

You determine if the cost is worth the return , or not. The goal is to make your team better , and you do that if, when you can. Certainly we can all agree that is needed for this team , no one can position this as we don't need to improve can they?
I don't disagree with this. I just think that Burmistrov>>ROR. Maybe not right now, but I bet in 3 years they won't even be close when it comes to importance on their team.

I do agree we aren't getting ROR for spare parts. However, I think his contract demands hurt what Colorado will get for him, because now more than ever, cap space is considered along with age, talent level, and potential.

Little might be enough to get it done. Little + Postma is a very good deal for Coloraddo.

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02-16-2013, 02:44 PM
  #412
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Originally Posted by Brogosian View Post
I don't disagree with this. I just think that Burmistrov>>ROR. Maybe not right now, but I bet in 3 years they won't even be close when it comes to importance on their team.

I do agree we aren't getting ROR for spare parts. However, I think his contract demands hurt what Colorado will get for him, because now more than ever, cap space is considered along with age, talent level, and potential.

Little might be enough to get it done. Little + Postma is a very good deal for Coloraddo.
IMO Little + Postma would be plenty more than what the Yotes got for Turris.

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02-16-2013, 02:53 PM
  #413
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I don't disagree with this. I just think that Burmistrov>>ROR. Maybe not right now, but I bet in 3 years they won't even be close when it comes to importance on their team.

I do agree we aren't getting ROR for spare parts. However, I think his contract demands hurt what Colorado will get for him, because now more than ever, cap space is considered along with age, talent level, and potential.

Little might be enough to get it done. Little + Postma is a very good deal for Coloraddo.
If his contract hurts the value Colorado can or will get , so much the better for Winnipeg ,presuming they have genuine interest.

Serious question , not what you hope for , but what level of player and production do you expect from Burmistrov? Also , are you ok with waiting until he is 25 to get said return? Is it also ok to wait for that as opposed to getting it right now? He is 22 and has had a lot of opportunity to provide results imo.

He has skills but as I have mentioned multiple times and sure his supporters are sick of hearing , that does not mean he is effectively making a difference to wins and losses. He may take the advise he has been given and translate that to making a real difference , or he may not as has been the case. You have to know when to sell , and not saying the Jets have to sell Burmistrov , but they do have to make that decision imo.

Right now Little is providing more of that Burmistrov imo and could be considered more valuable as a piece in a trade , by the team trading for him and the Jets. Saying that , I am sure if the Jets value ROR they would consider Little/Postma as their end of the trade , but again , I do not know if Colorado would make the trade for those 2.

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02-16-2013, 03:14 PM
  #414
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If his contract hurts the value Colorado can or will get , so much the better for Winnipeg ,presuming they have genuine interest.

Serious question , not what you hope for , but what level of player and production do you expect from Burmistrov? Also , are you ok with waiting until he is 25 to get said return? Is it also ok to wait for that as opposed to getting it right now? He is 22 and has had a lot of opportunity to provide results imo.

He has skills but as I have mentioned multiple times and sure his supporters are sick of hearing , that does not mean he is effectively making a difference to wins and losses. He may take the advise he has been given and translate that to making a real difference , or he may not as has been the case. You have to know when to sell , and not saying the Jets have to sell Burmistrov , but they do have to make that decision imo.

Right now Little is providing more of that Burmistrov imo and could be considered more valuable as a piece in a trade , by the team trading for him and the Jets. Saying that , I am sure if the Jets value ROR they would consider Little/Postma as their end of the trade , but again , I do not know if Colorado would make the trade for those 2.
I think what hurts Burmistrov's value on HF Jets is his lack of points. It's fair, the guy is supposed to score for us and set guys up.

I think when you start peeling the Burmistrov onions layers back is when you truly start to see the player he is becoming. Here are the reasons I believe he is a real beaut, and very underrated:

He has already shown he is very skilled, and has demonstrated he can score at every other level he's played

He has committed himself to being the best, most responsible player on the ice every shift he takes. How many young, offensively gifted players are that unselfish? Not many.

He is known to be a rink rat. Dedicated to practice, learning and getting better.

This kid reinvented himself. He is really becoming a premiere defensive forward and I think if you saw rookie Burmistrov, you would never guess he would do that. He scored at a higher level, but at what cost.

I think what #8 is doing right now is building up his defensive base. I think more and more you see he is now starting to add his offensive flair to that. Already this season I've seen him do more dynamic things offensively as games go on. All the while he is still extremely mindful of his defensive responsibility. Even the CBC guys commented on it last night.

I honestly, truthfully believe we are seeing the emergence of one of the NHL's premiere 2 way players. I think if we traded him now, we would regret it for years and years. Some have said Datsyuk lite, and I agree.

Others look at the scoresheet and see a guy who isn't really putting up the points we'd hoped. I see way more from Alex.

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02-16-2013, 03:18 PM
  #415
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Excellent post; I like what i see from the "new" Burmi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brogosian View Post
I think what hurts Burmistrov's value on HF Jets is his lack of points. It's fair, the guy is supposed to score for us and set guys up.

I think when you start peeling the Burmistrov onions layers back is when you truly start to see the player he is becoming. Here are the reasons I believe he is a real beaut, and very underrated:

He has already shown he is very skilled, and has demonstrated he can score at every other level he's played

He has committed himself to being the best, most responsible player on the ice every shift he takes. How many young, offensively gifted players are that unselfish? Not many.

He is known to be a rink rat. Dedicated to practice, learning and getting better.

This kid reinvented himself. He is really becoming a premiere defensive forward and I think if you saw rookie Burmistrov, you would never guess he would do that. He scored at a higher level, but at what cost.

I think what #8 is doing right now is building up his defensive base. I think more and more you see he is now starting to add his offensive flair to that. Already this season I've seen him do more dynamic things offensively as games go on. All the while he is still extremely mindful of his defensive responsibility. Even the CBC guys commented on it last night.

I honestly, truthfully believe we are seeing the emergence of one of the NHL's premiere 2 way players. I think if we traded him now, we would regret it for years and years. Some have said Datsyuk lite, and I agree.

Others look at the scoresheet and see a guy who isn't really putting up the points we'd hoped. I see way more from Alex.

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02-16-2013, 03:42 PM
  #416
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If RoR is there for the Jets for Burmistrov and Postma i say they jump all over that !!

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02-16-2013, 03:51 PM
  #417
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What are everyone's thoughts on when is "selling time" to load up on draft picks?

Lots of teams will try to make a run at the Cup and will load up on players before the deadline. With the Jets needing about 22 wins out of the last 35 to make the playoffs (estimate), its looking increasingly doubtful.

Not time to test the market just yet - there is always hope - but if they don't get going on a good run soon, you'd figure Chevy will start making moves shortly.

I'd like to stack up on first/second rounders in a deep draft year - and hope for some luck in the lottery.

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02-16-2013, 03:51 PM
  #418
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I don't think they're interested in Postma.

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02-16-2013, 03:54 PM
  #419
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I'm not too sure why so many people are happy to toss Postma away so soon. The guy is young and yes he's made a few mistakes (keeping the puck in the offensive zone). That being said, the guy is big, skates well and has a powerful shot that will only get better. I'd argue that Redmond holds less value to us. He's smaller than Postma, doesn't possess the powerful shot and takes stupid penalties repeatedly.

As for the people wanting to dump Burmi.....what Jets games have you been watching???? This guys motor never stops, and he's the teams best skater by far. Give Burmi some time, and he'll do good things.

Guys that are unnoticeable and can be dumped: Hainsey, Wellwood, Antropov, and Little.

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02-16-2013, 04:16 PM
  #420
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As for the people wanting to dump Burmi.....what Jets games have you been watching???? This guys motor never stops, and he's the teams best skater by far. Give Burmi some time, and he'll do good things.
I've been watching the ones where whenever the puck touches his stick it more often than not results in the other team gaining possession shortly afterward. Many here point to his skills but seemingly ignore that his puck management is horrible. The NHL is not a developmental league; he may not have much more time in a Jets uni if he doesn't start putting up some points. If his contributions are limited to defense then it is easy to see how the team might eventually move toward a defensive center that offers a considerable size upgrade.

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02-16-2013, 05:15 PM
  #421
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I'm not too sure why so many people are happy to toss Postma away so soon. The guy is young and yes he's made a few mistakes (keeping the puck in the offensive zone). That being said, the guy is big, skates well and has a powerful shot that will only get better. I'd argue that Redmond holds less value to us. He's smaller than Postma, doesn't possess the powerful shot and takes stupid penalties repeatedly.

As for the people wanting to dump Burmi.....what Jets games have you been watching???? This guys motor never stops, and he's the teams best skater by far. Give Burmi some time, and he'll do good things.

Guys that are unnoticeable and can be dumped: Hainsey, Wellwood, Antropov, and Little.

It's not that anyone wants to "dump" him away, just that he is the most redundant player on our team, and holds the most value. Offensive minded RHD is extremely crowded on the Jets and Postma is the least essential to our lineup, while still fetching a good value in return. I'd be more than happy with keeping him as well if that's the way Chevy plays it.

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02-16-2013, 05:57 PM
  #422
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Originally Posted by Brogosian View Post
I think what hurts Burmistrov's value on HF Jets is his lack of points. It's fair, the guy is supposed to score for us and set guys up.

I think when you start peeling the Burmistrov onions layers back is when you truly start to see the player he is becoming. Here are the reasons I believe he is a real beaut, and very underrated:

He has already shown he is very skilled, and has demonstrated he can score at every other level he's played

He has committed himself to being the best, most responsible player on the ice every shift he takes. How many young, offensively gifted players are that unselfish? Not many.

He is known to be a rink rat. Dedicated to practice, learning and getting better.

This kid reinvented himself. He is really becoming a premiere defensive forward and I think if you saw rookie Burmistrov, you would never guess he would do that. He scored at a higher level, but at what cost.

I think what #8 is doing right now is building up his defensive base. I think more and more you see he is now starting to add his offensive flair to that. Already this season I've seen him do more dynamic things offensively as games go on. All the while he is still extremely mindful of his defensive responsibility. Even the CBC guys commented on it last night.

I honestly, truthfully believe we are seeing the emergence of one of the NHL's premiere 2 way players. I think if we traded him now, we would regret it for years and years. Some have said Datsyuk lite, and I agree.

Others look at the scoresheet and see a guy who isn't really putting up the points we'd hoped. I see way more from Alex.
I appreciate that you are a fan of his , no issues with that at all . However he has certainly not shown he can score at every other level he has played at , that simply is not accurate. Then you say offensively gifted , do you mean he has skills , like skating ? he has skills but ALL of his skills have not produced offense. Potentially could he? Of course , has he? No.

Datsyuk lite means what? I know it is a throw around catch phrase to compare them as similar players but not at the same impact . Well lite as in how lite? That just is too easy a label to give and really means very little.

When you say the emergence of one of the NHL's premiere 2 way players , does that mean that is happening , can continue to happen without virtually any offense? Yes he can make very good defensive plays with his reads and skating but he also ,like last night , gives the puck away far too much to be regarded as premiere at this stage imo.

Then you say, isn't really putting up the points , really as in not at all , it is what it is . Dedicated to practice ,learning and getting better ... yes he has a love for the game and can be a "rink rat" however he has been told what he is not and has not been doing that this organization wants him to do and that hasn't been met with the best response nor has it dramatically changed. This is the same as when I said well before it went public that the organization was/had thought about time in the AHL for him . It was for a reason , and those reasons haven't changed positively very much .

I see why people are in love with him , and do hope he progresses , but let's be honest , he is a work in progress like many other players that right now has a long way to go in several areas. Key areas. This is my opinion but also one that has been identified by the people that are running this team.

I see a 3C , that can be an asset no doubt , but one that is not likely to produce better than average at best points and a C that doesn't bring out the best in his linemates. I still think he has a better chance at W than C to be blunt.

I hope you are right and I am wrong , I really do . I don't however have blind faith , but I am hopeful as it would really impact the development of this team .

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02-16-2013, 06:40 PM
  #423
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The debate on Burmi turns on why is a guy as obviously as talented as he is, produces so few points with that talent. I realize he is young, and has a defensive game beyond his years, but at some point he needs generate more scoring otherwise he will become our Kris Draper.

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02-16-2013, 06:57 PM
  #424
puck stoppa
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Originally Posted by KingBogo View Post
The debate on Burmi turns on why is a guy as obviously as talented as he is, produces so few points with that talent. I realize he is young, and has a defensive game beyond his years, but at some point he needs generate more scoring otherwise he will become our Kris Draper.
Are you saying sell him for a dollar

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02-16-2013, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by puck stoppa View Post
Are you saying sell him for a dollar
Sorry I should restate that. Otherwise he will become Detroit's Kris Draper

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