While waiting for my last pick [Ralph Backstrom], I was going down my lists and trying to figure out who I wanted, who was available and who would probably get picked over the next round or so.....seems like a lot of my favorites are getting snagged.
- Bob Goldham
Didn't know anything about him but researching him quickly made me interested. Not only was his reputation deserved, he was also a natural right handed shot. Sturm was right, he was the BDA.
- Ed Westfall
One of the unheralded from the Bruins late 60's/early 70's teams. Not only was he a great defensive forward but he was also a very good special teams player with almost as many SH goals as he has PP goals.....hated it when the Bruins lost him to the Islanders, (where he became captain), in the expansion draft.
- Rob Ramage
I am intrigued about him. I like him as a player but during his prime he was on some sad sack teams. Always wondered what would've happened if he were on some of the better teams of the era during his prime, although he was a strong contributor on the Flames SC team.
- Ted Green
Terrible Teddy actually became a better defenseman after his head got caved in.....not being as rambunctious and impetuous as before he ended up playing better positionally. Probably jumped to the WHA at the best time possible for him.
- Jimmy Watson
He's a Watson, what more can you say? Major blue line stalwart for the Flyers SC years.
- Rick Tocchet
Was going to be my next pick if he somehow survived til then.....my kind of player.
- Dino Ciccarelli
A major league dick but in this format he would be a great 2nd line winger.
also
- Peter Bondra...a pure sniper.....and it's kind of funny, the current Bruins have a player that like Bondra's post lockout numbers, if averaged out would be very similar, as to this past lockout.
There was some discussion of Bobby Rousseau earlier, and the effect of linemates and PP/ES scoring on his numbers. I have the actual numbers.
1961-62 through 1963-64
Player
ESG
ESA
ESP
PPG
PPA
PPP
Henri Richard
52
99
151
6
17
23
Ralph Backstrom
54
69
123
3
3
6
Jean Beliveau
36
86
122
28
36
64
Claude Provost
56
61
117
9
15
24
Bobby Rousseau
55
57
112
5
14
19
Gilles Tremblay
61
46
107
16
16
32
Bill Hicke
42
50
92
6
12
18
Bernie Geoffrion
48
42
90
18
29
47
ES points shared with
Jean Beliveau
40
Gilles Tremblay
35
Henri Richard
32
Rousseau was a complementary top line player during these three seasons, scoring primarily at ES and receiving little PP time. Beliveau and Tremblay were his primary linemates in his first two full seasons, and then Richard and Tremblay in his third season.
1964-65 through 1967-68
Player
ESG
ESA
ESP
PPG
PPA
PPP
Henri Richard
63
94
157
12
24
36
Ralph Backstrom
69
85
154
11
16
27
Bobby Rousseau
53
95
148
26
79
105
Claude Provost
50
94
144
18
16
34
Jean Beliveau
59
84
143
33
49
82
Gilles Tremblay
35
61
111
19
13
32
John Ferguson
50
61
111
12
16
28
Claude Larose
50
56
106
6
3
9
Dick Duff
53
42
95
14
21
35
ES points shared with
Dick Duff
53
Jean Beliveau
35
Henri Richard
28
Gilles Tremblay
17
Jacques Lemaire
16
Rousseau played the point on the PP for Montreal during this time period, and was their leading PP scorer. At ES he was also among their top scorers, but not to the degree he was on the PP. He played with several linemates, Dick Duff being the most common.
1968-69 and 1969-70
Player
ESG
ESA
ESP
PPG
PPA
PPP
Yvan Cournoyer
47
53
100
23
28
51
Bobby Rousseau
46
50
96
7
21
28
Jacques Lemaire
46
50
96
15
12
27
Henri Richard
27
65
92
4
5
9
Jean Beliveau
43
45
88
9
31
40
Ralph Backstrom
29
48
77
3
3
6
John Ferguson
39
32
71
9
3
12
Mickey Redmond
31
37
68
5
5
10
ES points shared with
Henri Richard
25
Jacques Lemaire
19
Dick Duff
14
Yvan Cournoyer
12
J.C. Tremblay took a bigger role on the PP, reducing Rousseau's role there. Montreal had very balanced lines and roles for these seasons among their forwards and Rousseau scored as much as anyone.
1971-72 through 1973-74
Player
ESG
ESA
ESP
PPG
PPA
PPP
Jean Ratelle
92
105
197
22
46
68
Vic Hadfield
62
88
150
43
27
70
Walt Tkaczuk
56
93
149
10
22
32
Bill Fairbairn
50
95
145
11
15
26
Pete Stemkowski
53
88
141
5
8
13
Brad Park
41
96
137
16
45
61
Rod Gilbert
39
73
112
22
25
47
Bruce MacGregor
43
54
97
2
3
5
Ted Irvine
46
49
95
3
3
6
Rod Seiling
18
74
92
1
14
15
Steve Vickers
57
35
92
7
10
17
Bobby Rousseau
26
54
80
12
59
71
ES points shared with
Bruce MacGregor
17
Ted Irvine
16
Jean Ratelle
11
Rod Gilbert
10
Brad Park
10
Dale Rolfe
10
Vic Hadfield
9
Bill Fairbairn
7
Rousseau was a total PP specialist in New York, leading the Rangers in PP points for his time there and finishing 12th in ES points. He played with many diffferent players at ES in a limited role, and manned the blueline with Brad Park on the PP.
Awesome breakdown, overpass. My long-held opinion of Rousseau is that he has always been a legit ATD scoringliner in terms of what he brought to the ice. It's nice to see him finally get a shot in that role here. I think he's actually a quite good scoringline "glue guy" (or complementary player) so long as his softness is not an issue, which I don't think it is on a line with Lindsay and Kennedy.
There was some discussion of Bobby Rousseau earlier, and the effect of linemates and PP/ES scoring on his numbers. I have the actual numbers.
1961-62 through 1963-64
Player
ESG
ESA
ESP
PPG
PPA
PPP
Henri Richard
52
99
151
6
17
23
Ralph Backstrom
54
69
123
3
3
6
Jean Beliveau
36
86
122
28
36
64
Claude Provost
56
61
117
9
15
24
Bobby Rousseau
55
57
112
5
14
19
Gilles Tremblay
61
46
107
16
16
32
Bill Hicke
42
50
92
6
12
18
Bernie Geoffrion
48
42
90
18
29
47
ES points shared with
Jean Beliveau
40
Gilles Tremblay
35
Henri Richard
32
Rousseau was a complementary top line player during these three seasons, scoring primarily at ES and receiving little PP time. Beliveau and Tremblay were his primary linemates in his first two full seasons, and then Richard and Tremblay in his third season.
1964-65 through 1967-68
Player
ESG
ESA
ESP
PPG
PPA
PPP
Henri Richard
63
94
157
12
24
36
Ralph Backstrom
69
85
154
11
16
27
Bobby Rousseau
53
95
148
26
79
105
Claude Provost
50
94
144
18
16
34
Jean Beliveau
59
84
143
33
49
82
Gilles Tremblay
35
61
111
19
13
32
John Ferguson
50
61
111
12
16
28
Claude Larose
50
56
106
6
3
9
Dick Duff
53
42
95
14
21
35
ES points shared with
Dick Duff
53
Jean Beliveau
35
Henri Richard
28
Gilles Tremblay
17
Jacques Lemaire
16
Rousseau played the point on the PP for Montreal during this time period, and was their leading PP scorer. At ES he was also among their top scorers, but not to the degree he was on the PP. He played with several linemates, Dick Duff being the most common.
1968-69 and 1969-70
Player
ESG
ESA
ESP
PPG
PPA
PPP
Yvan Cournoyer
47
53
100
23
28
51
Bobby Rousseau
46
50
96
7
21
28
Jacques Lemaire
46
50
96
15
12
27
Henri Richard
27
65
92
4
5
9
Jean Beliveau
43
45
88
9
31
40
Ralph Backstrom
29
48
77
3
3
6
John Ferguson
39
32
71
9
3
12
Mickey Redmond
31
37
68
5
5
10
ES points shared with
Henri Richard
25
Jacques Lemaire
19
Dick Duff
14
Yvan Cournoyer
12
J.C. Tremblay took a bigger role on the PP, reducing Rousseau's role there. Montreal had very balanced lines and roles for these seasons among their forwards and Rousseau scored as much as anyone.
1971-72 through 1973-74
Player
ESG
ESA
ESP
PPG
PPA
PPP
Jean Ratelle
92
105
197
22
46
68
Vic Hadfield
62
88
150
43
27
70
Walt Tkaczuk
56
93
149
10
22
32
Bill Fairbairn
50
95
145
11
15
26
Pete Stemkowski
53
88
141
5
8
13
Brad Park
41
96
137
16
45
61
Rod Gilbert
39
73
112
22
25
47
Bruce MacGregor
43
54
97
2
3
5
Ted Irvine
46
49
95
3
3
6
Rod Seiling
18
74
92
1
14
15
Steve Vickers
57
35
92
7
10
17
Bobby Rousseau
26
54
80
12
59
71
ES points shared with
Bruce MacGregor
17
Ted Irvine
16
Jean Ratelle
11
Rod Gilbert
10
Brad Park
10
Dale Rolfe
10
Vic Hadfield
9
Bill Fairbairn
7
Rousseau was a total PP specialist in New York, leading the Rangers in PP points for his time there and finishing 12th in ES points. He played with many diffferent players at ES in a limited role, and manned the blueline with Brad Park on the PP.
Excellent work Overpass, thank you for that breakdown.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator
Awesome breakdown, overpass. My long-held opinion of Rousseau is that he has always been a legit ATD scoringliner in terms of what he brought to the ice. It's nice to see him finally get a shot in that role here. I think he's actually a quite good scoringline "glue guy" (or complementary player) so long as his softness is not an issue, which I don't think it is on a line with Lindsay and Kennedy.
Agreed, I think GM's just become robotic in thinking which line a player can play on due to past draft positions and placements.
That was my mindset going in, I wanted stray away from the traditional way things are done.
While waiting for my last pick [Ralph Backstrom], I was going down my lists and trying to figure out who I wanted, who was available and who would probably get picked over the next round or so.....seems like a lot of my favorites are getting snagged.
- Bob Goldham
Didn't know anything about him but researching him quickly made me interested. Not only was his reputation deserved, he was also a natural right handed shot. Sturm was right, he was the BDA.
- Ed Westfall
One of the unheralded from the Bruins late 60's/early 70's teams. Not only was he a great defensive forward but he was also a very good special teams player with almost as many SH goals as he has PP goals.....hated it when the Bruins lost him to the Islanders, (where he became captain), in the expansion draft.
- Rob Ramage
I am intrigued about him. I like him as a player but during his prime he was on some sad sack teams. Always wondered what would've happened if he were on some of the better teams of the era during his prime, although he was a strong contributor on the Flames SC team.
- Ted Green
Terrible Teddy actually became a better defenseman after his head got caved in.....not being as rambunctious and impetuous as before he ended up playing better positionally. Probably jumped to the WHA at the best time possible for him.
- Jimmy Watson
He's a Watson, what more can you say? Major blue line stalwart for the Flyers SC years.
- Rick Tocchet
Was going to be my next pick if he somehow survived til then.....my kind of player.
- Dino Ciccarelli
A major league dick but in this format he would be a great 2nd line winger.
also
- Peter Bondra...a pure sniper.....and it's kind of funny, the current Bruins have a player that like Bondra's post lockout numbers, if averaged out would be very similar, as to this past lockout.
I was looking at Tocchet and Dino. Decided that Dino was far and away better at basically everything except fighting.
- Ted Green
Terrible Teddy actually became a better defenseman after his head got caved in.....not being as rambunctious and impetuous as before he ended up playing better positionally. Probably jumped to the WHA at the best time possible for him.
His best years were definitely before his injury. All of his best voting results were before, and all of his best scoring seasons were before as well.
Green's offensive game is very, very under-rated. 2nd, 2nd, and 3rd in scoring among defensemen. Both 2nds came before Orr exploded, and the 3rd was behind Orr.
Either he was very poor defensively or his reputation severely reduced his voting results.
His best years were definitely before his injury. All of his best voting results were before, and all of his best scoring seasons were before as well.
Green's offensive game is very, very under-rated. 2nd, 2nd, and 3rd in scoring among defensemen. Both 2nds came before Orr exploded, and the 3rd was behind Orr.
Either he was very poor defensively or his reputation severely reduced his voting results.
No he was a good player before but tended to drop his gloves easily, (although I do like this in a player actually). Because of the plate in his head and the risk of injury he adapted to being more of a positional player, not taking as many chances or getting too rowdy, (he had only 4 fights after his injury).
He was a wee tad more cautious and took care of things in his own end more than he had before, things that didn't show up in the box scores or stat sheets.....and as a defenseman that's not such a bad thing, eh?
No he was a good player before but tended to drop his gloves easily, (although I do like this in a player actually). Because of the plate in his head and the risk of injury he adapted to being more of a positional player, not taking as many chances or getting too rowdy, (he had only 4 fights after his injury).
He was a wee tad more cautious and took care of things in his own end more than he had before, things that didn't show up in the box scores or stat sheets.....and as a defenseman that's not such a bad thing, eh?
Nothing wrong with dropping your gloves. He was a much better offensive player before the injury, and he was also much more intimidating. Maybe he was a steadier defensively after the injury, but that doesn't mitigate the loss of offense and intimidation.
He was one of the best NHL defensemen for the 5 years before the injury. He played one decent season after the injury, and then he went to become a good, but not elite, defenseman in the WHA. Basically, Green's ATD resume was built from 1965-69. The rest is just "longevity", since he doesn't really add much to that previous resume.
Nothing wrong with dropping your gloves. He was a much better offensive player before the injury, and he was also much more intimidating. Maybe he was a steadier defensively after the injury, but that doesn't mitigate the loss of offense and intimidation.
He was one of the best NHL defensemen for the 5 years before the injury. He played one decent season after the injury, and then he went to become a good, but not elite, defenseman in the WHA. Basically, Green's ATD resume was built from 1965-69. The rest is just "longevity", since he doesn't really add much to that previous resume.
Oh I don't doubt the impact he had, let's just say he became a more well-rounded player and keep it at that. Believe me, you're talking to a fan of his.
Boyo do I remember those front-page newspaper headlines and photos though....created another woulda, coulda, shoulda scenario.
His best years were definitely before his injury. All of his best voting results were before, and all of his best scoring seasons were before as well.
Green's offensive game is very, very under-rated. 2nd, 2nd, and 3rd in scoring among defensemen. Both 2nds came before Orr exploded, and the 3rd was behind Orr.
Either he was very poor defensively or his reputation severely reduced his voting results.
The 2nd in '68 may be before Orr became WTF good, but Orr was by far the best d-man in the league and Green was his partner. '65, I don't know. He did fall behind superior defensive defensemen like Horton, Laperriere, Brewer and Howell. So we can safely say he wasn't in their league defensively.
But the original comment was that he became a high end defensive defenceman latter in his career, which I would stand beside.
__________________
Every post comes with the Nalyd Psycho Seal of Approval.
The 2nd in '68 may be before Orr became WTF good, but Orr was by far the best d-man in the league and Green was his partner. '65, I don't know. He did fall behind superior defensive defensemen like Horton, Laperriere, Brewer and Howell. So we can safely say he wasn't in their league defensively.
I didn't say Green was better than Orr in 1968, I said he outscored him.
As far as falling behind those guys defensively, I agree. However, how does he rank with them as an overall defenseman?
Quote:
But the original comment was that he became a high end defensive defenceman latter in his career, which I would stand beside.
The original comment said nothing about defensive play - it said he was "a better defenseman" before the injury.
Awesome breakdown, overpass. My long-held opinion of Rousseau is that he has always been a legit ATD scoringliner in terms of what he brought to the ice. It's nice to see him finally get a shot in that role here. I think he's actually a quite good scoringline "glue guy" (or complementary player) so long as his softness is not an issue, which I don't think it is on a line with Lindsay and Kennedy.
I need to be more sold on Rousseau's defensive ability before thinking of him as a good glue guy, rather than a merely passable one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87
Agreed, I think GM's just become robotic in thinking which line a player can play on due to past draft positions and placements.
That was my mindset going in, I wanted stray away from the traditional way things are done.
yeah, there are definitely guys pigeonholed into being third liners who are better offensively than a lot of the grinders often found on scoring lines in this thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hobnobs
I was looking at Tocchet and Dino. Decided that Dino was far and away better at basically everything except fighting.
Tocchet was much better in the corners too. Dino wasn't that much of a corners guy, more of a guy who would do whatever it takes in front of the net. Dino is much better offensively though.
2nd in Points and the most physically intimidating. As I said, he'd have to be pretty bad defensively to justify the voting record, and I'm not sure he was even worse than average.
Actually, I'm pretty sure HR is wrong. I've been trying to figure it out, and based on the game action pictures I could find, Goldham is right-handed. If he's left-handed, so is Gordie Howe.... and Red Kelly is right-handed... and Terry Sawchuk wore his glove on right hand.
Edit:
Here's an example....
Goalie is Sawchuk, who's wearing the glove on the correct hand, so we know the picture isn't reversed.
#2 Goldham is right-handed in the picture.
#11 is a guy we all know is left-handed, and #19 is a guy we all know is right-handed. They are both undrafted, so PM me if you want to know who they are.
I think Roenick is a good pick here, and has been underrated for a while in the ATD. The bolded above is pretty much the reason some people have underrated him. He had a wierd fall-off in his play around the time of the lockout, but recovered his game and for a few years there in Phoenix and Philly was just as good as he'd ever been in Chicago, but it doesn't look that way if you just look at his raw points because his late-peak resurgence occured during the dead puck era, and nobody paid attention to the Coyotes at the time. I think JR is on the Keats/Dunderdale level of scoringline centers. Definitely a better all-around player than guys like Federko and Nieuwendyk who always get taken before him.
No one is saying he is, but the voters agreed that a half season of Orr was greater than every other defenceman's whole season. Orr's reidiculous greatness shouldn't be held against Green.
Tocchet was much better in the corners too. Dino wasn't that much of a corners guy, more of a guy who would do whatever it takes in front of the net. Dino is much better offensively though.
Dino could be tenacious in the corners, his problem was his stature but u are right Tocchet has an advatage at corner digging.
2nd in Points and the most physically intimidating. As I said, he'd have to be pretty bad defensively to justify the voting record, and I'm not sure he was even worse than average.
Well, we do have proof that Green rarely killed penalties, right? So there is that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87
Pretty telling article, showing how Rousseau was used (while playing for the Rangers to shadow Cournoyer.
Seems like Rousseau and Beliveau thought offense-first when they were linemates (which makes sense), but both were capable of playing well defensively when the situation warranted it.
The Cournoyer one is interesting - I never knew that Rousseau was a speedster before, and it looks like he was used against Cournoyer because he was the only guy they had fast enough to keep up.
Rousseau seems like a very versatile player who could think offense or defense first depending on what the coach asked. Too bad he was so small. The "he had freakishly large wrists, which gave him a really hard shot" thing is interesting and would explain why he often played point on the powerplay.
There was some discussion of Bobby Rousseau earlier, and the effect of linemates and PP/ES scoring on his numbers. I have the actual numbers.
1961-62 through 1963-64
Player
ESG
ESA
ESP
PPG
PPA
PPP
Games Played
ESPPG
Henri Richard
52
99
151
6
17
23
187
.807
Ralph Backstrom
54
69
123
3
3
6
206
.597
Jean Beliveau
36
86
122
28
36
64
180
.678
Claude Provost
56
61
117
9
15
24
205
.570
Bobby Rousseau
55
57
112
5
14
19
202
.55
Gilles Tremblay
61
46
107
16
16
32
191
.56
Bill Hicke
42
50
92
6
12
18
188
.489
Bernie Geoffrion
48
42
90
18
29
47
168
.535
ES points shared with
Jean Beliveau
40
Gilles Tremblay
35
Henri Richard
32
Rousseau was a complementary top line player during these three seasons, scoring primarily at ES and receiving little PP time. Beliveau and Tremblay were his primary linemates in his first two full seasons, and then Richard and Tremblay in his third season.
1964-65 through 1967-68
Player
ESG
ESA
ESP
PPG
PPA
PPP
Games Played
ESPPG
Henri Richard
63
94
157
12
24
36
234
.671
Ralph Backstrom
69
85
154
11
16
27
276
.558
Bobby Rousseau
53
95
148
26
79
105
278
.532
Claude Provost
50
94
144
18
16
34
277
.520
Jean Beliveau
59
84
143
33
49
82
237
.603
Gilles Tremblay
35
61
111
19
13
32
229
.485
John Ferguson
50
61
111
12
16
28
262
.424
Claude Larose
50
56
106
6
3
9
243
.382
Dick Duff
53
42
95
14
21
35
249
ES points shared with
Dick Duff
53
Jean Beliveau
35
Henri Richard
28
Gilles Tremblay
17
Jacques Lemaire
16
Rousseau played the point on the PP for Montreal during this time period, and was their leading PP scorer. At ES he was also among their top scorers, but not to the degree he was on the PP. He played with several linemates, Dick Duff being the most common.
1968-69 and 1969-70
Player
ESG
ESA
ESP
PPG
PPA
PPP
Games Played
ESPPG
Yvan Cournoyer
47
53
100
23
28
51
148
.676
Bobby Rousseau
46
50
96
7
21
28
148
.648
Jacques Lemaire
46
50
96
15
12
27
144
.667
Henri Richard
27
65
92
4
5
9
126
.730
Jean Beliveau
43
45
88
9
31
40
132
.667
Ralph Backstrom
29
48
77
3
3
6
144
.535
John Ferguson
39
32
71
9
3
12
119
.60
Mickey Redmond
31
37
68
5
5
10
140
.486
ES points shared with
Henri Richard
25
Jacques Lemaire
19
Dick Duff
14
Yvan Cournoyer
12
J.C. Tremblay took a bigger role on the PP, reducing Rousseau's role there. Montreal had very balanced lines and roles for these seasons among their forwards and Rousseau scored as much as anyone.
1971-72 through 1973-74
Player
ESG
ESA
ESP
PPG
PPA
PPP
Games Played
ESPPG
Jean Ratelle
92
105
197
22
46
68
209
.943
Vic Hadfield
62
88
150
43
27
70
218
.689
Walt Tkaczuk
56
93
149
10
22
32
223
.668
Bill Fairbairn
50
95
145
11
15
26
234
.620
Pete Stemkowski
53
88
141
5
8
13
215
.656
Brad Park
41
96
137
16
45
61
205
.668
Rod Gilbert
39
73
112
22
25
47
224
.500
Bruce MacGregor
43
54
97
2
3
5
193
.502
Ted Irvine
46
49
95
3
3
6
206
.461
Rod Seiling
18
74
92
1
14
15
218
.422
Steve Vickers
57
35
92
7
10
17
136
.676
Bobby Rousseau
26
54
80
12
59
71
228
.351
ES points shared with
Bruce MacGregor
17
Ted Irvine
16
Jean Ratelle
11
Rod Gilbert
10
Brad Park
10
Dale Rolfe
10
Vic Hadfield
9
Bill Fairbairn
7
Rousseau was a total PP specialist in New York, leading the Rangers in PP points for his time there and finishing 12th in ES points. He played with many different players at ES in a limited role, and manned the blueline with Brad Park on the PP.
Great work here overpass. But to get a more accurate picture, I've added a column of games played in each table to put everything in perspective.
Edit: I've also added ESPPG
Last edited by BillyShoe1721: 02-16-2013 at 05:04 PM.
Excellent work Overpass, thank you for that breakdown. 
