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Cole's Plus/Minus: Pens vs. Jets - Adams >>> Tangradi

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Old
02-16-2013, 10:08 AM
  #176
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Originally Posted by nhindian View Post
Seriously.

The people saying yesterday that they wish Tangradi goes off on us... wtf?
I thought Eric Tangradi played a fantastic game for us. He hit with conviction (do I want to say that? lol), and played a pretty good overall game, despite not getting himself on the scoresheet. Like they said, if you can't score, hit, hit, HIT, and make your presence felt in a physical sense. And he did just that.

Sorry guys, you were my team for 21 years, and 15 years we had no NHL team in our city, so I had to follow someone all of those years, but having Jets season tickets, and being from here, I have to root for them as well. Be happy I wear my Ron Francis jersey to the games... It's really hard when you're torn between two teams you love, or fans getting confused when you high five them after the Jets score, moments after you stand up and cheer, and slap the 7-year-old kid's hand in front of you wearing the Crosby jersey as the Pens score. That was a nice long run-on sentence! Ha!

Now it's the Bruins on Sunday, you betcha your money I'll be wearing the home town's jersey! Go Jets Go!

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02-16-2013, 10:19 AM
  #177
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Tangradi simply doesn't skate fast enough for Disco. I think that is the bottom line, and he honestly never had a chance to make it under Bylsma.

I wish Tangradi well. I also wish our coach can be a little more open-minded when it comes to his players. They're NOT all the same, so stop looking at their games as such.

If Bylsma won't change, then we have no shot at landing someone like, oh, Ryane Clowe to name one example. He's not a great skater. He may not 'get to our game'. Whatever.

Even Corey Perry might struggle under Disco.

We're in a catch-22. As long as Sid and Geno are healthy, Disco's winning percentage will continue to rise and get better and better and better.

Then we'll get out-coached in the playoffs and wonder wha happened?

Hopefully, this is the last year of this and Shero sees the problem.

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02-16-2013, 10:23 AM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
But...Kadri was drafted 7th overall.

I don't believe DB hands out icetime based on draft status...it seems totally contrary to his philosophy. As I think we're finding out, DB defers to proven vets over young players unless those young players are genuinely talented enough to justify the gaffes by being a net positive in short order, a la Bennett and Despres.

If they project to be complementary or meat-and-potato guys, they have to consistently prove themselves capable of playing effective, responsible hockey in limited roles if they want a shot at cracking the roster. And even then nothing is guaranteed.

Wouldn't put too much stock in the first game a player plays against his former team, either. Lots of adrenaline. Let's see how Tango does over the long haul.
Right. And people make it out to be a Bylsma thing when similarly touted coaches have done worse with better talent. Julien had Seguin as a healthy scratch on several occasions, bounced him around the lineup, relegated him to the 4th line etc., gave him 12 minutes a game and he turned out just fine. Larsson was a healthy scratch a few times early on in the season. For as brilliant as Tarasenko has looked, he's averaging less ice time than TK over the past two years. Lord knows that we'd get people complaining left and right if we had a talent of that caliber getting less ice time than Dupuis.

What Bylsma does with young players is more less in line with what every other coach does. The reason Tangradi failed is not because he was afraid to make mistakes, it's because he showed literally nothing during the majority of his stint with the Penguins. And when I say nothing, I mean just that. If he goes on to have success with the Jets, which I'd be surprised, I'd mark it up as a player needing a change of scenery. I don't want to hear that he was doomed to fail here. He had opportunities to make an impact, to show a little something, and he blew it. Time and time again. It didn't matter whether or not he was playing alongside Malkin or Craig Adams. The same player who was behind the play, slow to react, and unable to create for himself or others showed up every shift. If that wasn't enough, he was outbattled for pucks by guys a fraction his size with regularity. This whole notion that we should have cemented his spot in the lineup and given him a consistent 12-15 minutes a game to develop him is laughable. Show me another team that hands out scoring roles to mediocre prospects and I'll show you a lottery team.

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02-16-2013, 10:25 AM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Malkin4Top6Wingerz View Post
Right. And people make it out to be a Bylsma thing when similarly touted coaches have done worse with better talent. Julien had Seguin as a healthy scratch on several occasions, bounced him around the lineup, relegated him to the 4th line etc., gave him 12 minutes a game and he turned out just fine. Larsson was a healthy scratch a few times early on in the season. For as brilliant as Tarasenko has looked, he's averaging less ice time than TK over the past two years. Lord knows that we'd get people complaining left and right if we had a talent of that caliber getting less ice time than Dupuis.
What was the depth like on those teams?

And what's the depth like on the Pens?

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02-16-2013, 10:30 AM
  #180
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I've gone over this dozens of times: if high end talented kids like Schenn/Kadri, etc need steady minutes to prove themselves, how the hell do people expect less talented players like Tangradi to reach his potential getting three shifts a period, on a good night?
Maybe the reason that Schenn / Kadri got consistent minutes besides their pedigree is the fact that they actually showed glimpses of talent and ability to their coaches even when they made mistakes?

Just a crazy thought that popped into my head.

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02-16-2013, 10:31 AM
  #181
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- Malkin and Crosby seems to lost their goal scoring confidence.
Malkin has SH% 6.4 and Crosby 10.

- I can't understand why peoples give Malkin +. His game speed and decision making looks very poor right now, if you compare it to last year or even KHL. Somehow he just can't get in to the game flow.

- Somehow Bylsma has suck every bit of creativity out of the team

+ Fleury amazing

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Old
02-16-2013, 10:34 AM
  #182
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Jets fans are great, on here and at MTS. THey make the game more fun, even watching it on TV as an opposing fan. They are the exact reason why you want that team there and not in ATL (and the reason you want the Panthers in Ontario). PHX is a different ball of wax, as their problem is less an absence of passionate fans than crappy ownership / location, etc.

Ultimately though Much better to "grow the league" in passionate, small markets vs. indifferent large ones.

Oh yeah, I love watching games played in that building. Their fans are awesome. So loud, so passionate.


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Originally Posted by HandshakeLine View Post
Also agreed. It's nice to see them get their team back, though I really don't think we should relocate franchises. That's just cruel.
Agreed. Unless absolutely necessary. Especially since it could have easily happened to our team.


(well, besides the fact that the league changed their rules specifically for us, and rigged the lottery for us, and a host of other liberties taken at the rest of the leagues expense, but yeah, besides all that, we could have easily been relocated...........)

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02-16-2013, 10:36 AM
  #183
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What was the depth like on those teams?

And what's the depth like on the Pens?
IIRC, Boston traded for Chris Kelly at the deadline in Seguin's rookie year. They wanted a veteran to center the third line instead of giving that opportunity to one of the best center prospects in the last decade. You tell me how that looks.

New Jersey has a defense by committee approach, I'd hardly consider him a victim of depth. Most people probably couldn't name more than one defenseman on their roster.

I'm not entirely familliar with St. Louis's lineup, but with Langenbrunner out he ought to be a shoe in to crack their top 9.

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02-16-2013, 10:38 AM
  #184
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+ Fleury. I had a feeling he would play well tonight after giving up those softies in the last game. He's done that a lot in his career.

+4th line. Scoring was a bonus, but they seemed to spend every shift mostly in the offensive zone, wearing Winnipeg's D down.

+ being able to win when our stars aren't just going into beast mode and taking over

+ this is the ugly type of game you need to play in the playoffs. Maybe a few too many good chances against, but in general being able to win ugly is something the Pens usually struggle with.

+ a small plus, but Paul Martin was great other than the one giveaway. He has been reborn again hard, to use a movie quote.

- the pens can't figure out how to play offensively against a trapping type team

I watched a replay of this game again this morning, and I appreciated the effort from most of our guys, including Bennett. He needs to eventually play with Crosby more. I'd be happier if we get a legit 1st line winger, but I think Shero is in the process of doing that.

Two points, even if it was ugly

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02-16-2013, 10:40 AM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I've gone over this dozens of times: if high end talented kids like Schenn/Kadri, etc need steady minutes to prove themselves, how the hell do people expect less talented players like Tangradi to reach his potential getting three shifts a period, on a good night?
That really doesn't explain the Kadri example, but moving on...

The point is that to a contender like the Pens, lower-ceiling guys like Tangradi reaching their potential is not worth dealing with their NHL birth pangs. If they can get their act together in the A and prove it nightly with limited NHL auditions, then they might stick.

We're not going to hand them roster spots while they sort it out.

Quote:
Last season Tangradi earned fourth line minutes and DB gave his time to waiver wire fodder. This season he gave him a half assed chance in the top six, then gave a guy like Boychuk a legit chance. Sorry bro, but that is some BS. Boychuk has blown way more opportunities than Tangradi.
Boychuk created more chances in his first game here than Tangradi did in his entire Penguin career. Because he is more skilled.

I'm not saying he's the answer in the top 6. But that should show just how unextraordinary a player/prospect Tangradi is.

Quote:
Bort is on the bench and Engo is the guy who should be there. I'm a big Engo fan, but I don't make excuses for guys who are playing poorly.

Despres minutes have been cut severely and BB is only in the lineup because DB has run out of options. Let's not pretend like he cut/benched a vet so BB could get a chance.
I didn't see the Jets game so I can't comment there, but I have no problem with how Engo is playing. I like Bort, but I don't see how he brings any more to the table than Engo at this point. And again, this goes back to lesser-skilled guys having to prove themselves over time in limited roles. Bort is not Bennett or Despres.

Despres' minutes have been cut because the top 4 is healthy again, which could not be more understandable. He still got a regular roster spot over more tenured defensemen to start the year, which used to be the knock against DB. You say "let's not pretend like he cut/benched a vet so BB could get a chance", but that's exactly what he did to keep Despres in the line-up.

Quote:
I suspect BB will succeed because of his talent/lack of any options left, more so than DB being patient with him.
The mere fact that BB is playing right now debunks that, Jig. If we believed everything DB's critics say about him, we'd be promoting Riley Holzapfel ahead of him. Or playing Jeffrey ahead of him.

Not the case.

Quote:
Vitale is a meat and potatoes guy that would of never made this roster if Crosby was hurt. I am 100% sure DB doesn't cut a vet for him last season. Vitale would of never made it through the waiver wire, just like Strait. Where would this team be without a meat and potatoes guy like him?

Even though he busts his ass and works harder than every player on the ice, he still gets benched. How many times have people said "if Vitale gets benched again...." And it still happens.
I like Vitale - he's been a great 4th liner for us. But he's still a young 4th liner and has to keep earning his spot, and I have no problem with that.

Quote:
It's just funny how many of us have called out DB for this and now we have Tangradi and Strait echoing the same thing, but they are just cry babies.

Right.
Waiver-eligible prospect gets waived/traded for peanuts and talks about getting an opportunity in the new place that he didn't get in the old. Stop the ****ing presses.

Quote:
After bouncing between the NHL and AHL -- spending a lot more time in the minors -- the past four seasons, Boychuk is grateful for a fresh start.

"It's nice to get a chance," Boychuk said. "I want to be a full-time NHL player.

"I feel like I have the skills to do that. Now that Pittsburgh's giving me that opportunity, I hope to take advantage of it."
http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/...#ixzz2L54yQyPR

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02-16-2013, 10:40 AM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Malkin4Top6Wingerz View Post
Maybe the reason that Schenn / Kadri got consistent minutes besides their pedigree is the fact that they actually showed glimpses of talent and ability to their coaches even when they made mistakes?

Just a crazy thought that popped into my head.
Ya crazy thought that is inaccurate.

As I explained many times, Kadri was being jerked around by Wilson. He was benched when he made mistakes and sent back down. People thought he was a bust because of Wilson's stupidity.

Now he has a coach who trusts him and he still makes plenty of mistakes, just like the two huge gaffes he had the other night, but he is being allowed to grow. Several shifts after his two horrendous turnovers, he scored.

Kadri under Wilson - bust
Kadri under Carlyle - team leader in points

It isn't a coincidence.

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02-16-2013, 10:43 AM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Malkin4Top6Wingerz View Post
Right. And people make it out to be a Bylsma thing when similarly touted coaches have done worse with better talent. Julien had Seguin as a healthy scratch on several occasions, bounced him around the lineup, relegated him to the 4th line etc., gave him 12 minutes a game and he turned out just fine. Larsson was a healthy scratch a few times early on in the season. For as brilliant as Tarasenko has looked, he's averaging less ice time than TK over the past two years. Lord knows that we'd get people complaining left and right if we had a talent of that caliber getting less ice time than Dupuis.

What Bylsma does with young players is more less in line with what every other coach does. The reason Tangradi failed is not because he was afraid to make mistakes, it's because he showed literally nothing during the majority of his stint with the Penguins. And when I say nothing, I mean just that. If he goes on to have success with the Jets, which I'd be surprised, I'd mark it up as a player needing a change of scenery. I don't want to hear that he was doomed to fail here. He had opportunities to make an impact, to show a little something, and he blew it. Time and time again. It didn't matter whether or not he was playing alongside Malkin or Craig Adams. The same player who was behind the play, slow to react, and unable to create for himself or others showed up every shift. If that wasn't enough, he was outbattled for pucks by guys a fraction his size with regularity. This whole notion that we should have cemented his spot in the lineup and given him a consistent 12-15 minutes a game to develop him is laughable. Show me another team that hands out scoring roles to mediocre prospects and I'll show you a lottery team.
Yep. We can tend to look at our team in a bubble, but there isn't anything going on here that isn't going on in almost every successful organization in the league.

And I say that even while acknowledging that I think waiving Strait was a mistake.

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02-16-2013, 10:44 AM
  #188
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A guy to watch whose team is heavily investing time and quality minutes in, is Brandon Saad. He is getting decent minutes and when he does it is with their skilled players. I have seen most of their games, and many games he is invisible. (well aside from his speed which is always evident). It will be interesting to see his development. So far the Hawks definitely appear to believe in the kid. Glad to see, especially being a local boy.

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02-16-2013, 10:46 AM
  #189
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Ya crazy thought that is inaccurate.

As I explained many times, Kadri was being jerked around by Wilson. He was benched when he made mistakes and sent back down. People thought he was a bust because of Wilson's stupidity.

Now he has a coach who trusts him and he still makes plenty of mistakes, just like the two huge gaffes he had the other night, but he is being allowed to grow. Several shifts after his two horrendous turnovers, he scored.

Kadri under Wilson - bust
Kadri under Carlyle - team leader in points

It isn't a coincidence.
He was a 7th overall man! And undeniably skilled. How you think he even comes close to being an example for your argument blows me away, haha.

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02-16-2013, 10:54 AM
  #190
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He was a 7th overall man! And undeniably skilled. How you think he even comes close to being an example for your argument blows me away, haha.
All of that is true. But he was horribly misused and abused by Ron Wilson. Maybe he would have just magically turned into this guy in 2013 if RW was still the coach, but I actually don't think he's still in the organization if he's still the coach.

Living in Toronto, I felt bad for the kid. Wilson tore him down in ways that weren't even relevant to hockey.

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02-16-2013, 10:56 AM
  #191
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Ya crazy thought that is inaccurate.

As I explained many times, Kadri was being jerked around by Wilson. He was benched when he made mistakes and sent back down. People thought he was a bust because of Wilson's stupidity.

Now he has a coach who trusts him and he still makes plenty of mistakes, just like the two huge gaffes he had the other night, but he is being allowed to grow. Several shifts after his two horrendous turnovers, he scored.

Kadri under Wilson - bust
Kadri under Carlyle - team leader in points

It isn't a coincidence.
I'm not arguing that Wilson handled Kadri well. I don't follow the Leafs so it's not my place to say. What I'm saying is that the reason Carlyle is giving Kadri an opportunity to shine is because he has seen glimpses of the talent that got him drafted 7th overall. Wasn't Kadri's diet and conditioning in question last year too? There's no telling what Kadri himself had done to rectify that this offseason.

Let's just stop pretending that Tangradi showed all kinds of ability at the NHL level and had his role reduced / taken away because he made a few mistakes. He showed next to nothing during a make or break year for him with the organization. It's not comparable at all to Carlyle or Laviolette giving ultra talented prospects an opportunity to shine. It's just not.

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02-16-2013, 10:56 AM
  #192
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
That really doesn't explain the Kadri example, but moving on...
Sure it does.

Quote:
The point is that to a contender like the Pens, lower-ceiling guys like Tangradi reaching their potential is not worth dealing with their NHL birth pangs. If they can get their act together in the A and prove it nightly with limited NHL auditions, then they might stick.

We're not going to hand them roster spots while they sort it out.
Great org can develop talent while contending.

The last time I checked, DB reliance on vets only has lead to three straight playoff disappointments.

Quote:
Boychuk created more chances in his first game here than Tangradi did in his entire Penguin career. Because he is more skilled.

I'm not saying he's the answer in the top 6. But that should show just how unextraordinary a player/prospect Tangradi is.
How many points did he score?

Or anyone else paraded onto that line?

Tangradi had a good game playing on the fourth line, where he should of been all along, before he got benched.

Don't tell me they couldn't of kept him there since last season and kept winning.

Quote:
I didn't see the Jets game so I can't comment there, but I have no problem with how Engo is playing. I like Bort, but I don't see how he brings any more to the table than Engo at this point. And again, this goes back to lesser-skilled guys having to prove themselves over time in limited roles. Bort is not Bennett or Despres.

Despres' minutes have been cut because the top 4 is healthy again, which could not be more understandable. He still got a regular roster spot over more tenured defensemen to start the year, which used to be the knock against DB. You say "let's not pretend like he cut/benched a vet so BB could get a chance", but that's exactly what he did to keep Despres in the line-up.
It's obvious this team lacks a physical edge without Bort and Despres logging significant minutes. They are rookies, so obviously they can't make a difference, especially since one guy is a "meat and potatoes" player many people were ready to cast aside.

As for Despres getting in over Lovejoy... I mean... C'mon.

Quote:
The mere fact that BB is playing right now debunks that, Jig. If we believed everything DB's critics say about him, we'd be promoting Riley Holzapfel ahead of him. Or playing Jeffrey ahead of him.

Not the case.
DB has no options left. I don't see BB in the lineup as a sign he is changing. Despres perhaps, not BB.

Quote:
I like Vitale - he's been a great 4th liner for us. But he's still a young 4th liner and has to keep earning his spot, and I have no problem with that.
But TK doesn't?

Awesome message.

Quote:
Waiver-eligible prospect gets waived/traded for peanuts and talks about getting an opportunity in the new place that he didn't get in the old. Stop the ****ing presses.
I know this sounds out there, but guys who aren't high end prospects can actually help your team. I know the concept is whacked out, but I've seen it happen a few times... Maybe more.

Bort and Vitale are proof of that, when they aren't being benched.

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02-16-2013, 10:57 AM
  #193
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All of that is true. But he was horribly misused and abused by Ron Wilson. Maybe he would have just magically turned into this guy in 2013 if RW was still the coach, but I actually don't think he's still in the organization if he's still the coach.

Living in Toronto, I felt bad for the kid. Wilson tore him down in ways that weren't even relevant to hockey.
That's great, but it has no bearing on anything that's happened under Bylsma. It's totally left-field.

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02-16-2013, 11:00 AM
  #194
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He was a 7th overall man! And undeniably skilled. How you think he even comes close to being an example for your argument blows me away, haha.
You obviously didn't watch him much with the Leafs if you can't understand the parallel I'm drawing. There is a reason he was being labeled a bust.

I'll just leave it at that.

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02-16-2013, 11:01 AM
  #195
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Agreed. Unless absolutely necessary. Especially since it could have easily happened to our team.


(well, besides the fact that the league changed their rules specifically for us, and rigged the lottery for us, and a host of other liberties taken at the rest of the leagues expense, but yeah, besides all that, we could have easily been relocated...........)
As a lifelong Montreal Expos fan, I agree wholeheartedly. That said, somebody needs to do SOMETHING with Phoenix. It's ridiculous that it has lasted this long.

I feel for Coyotes fans, but geez it's painful to watch that franchise right now.

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02-16-2013, 11:02 AM
  #196
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That's great, but it has no bearing on anything that's happened under Bylsma. It's totally left-field.
It's called trusting your young players and letting them grow.

It applies to all prospects.

It is quite a simple concept.

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02-16-2013, 11:06 AM
  #197
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As a lifelong Montreal Expos fan, I agree wholeheartedly. That said, somebody needs to do SOMETHING with Phoenix. It's ridiculous that it has lasted this long.

I feel for Coyotes fans, but geez it's painful to watch that franchise right now.
Yeah, agreed Jags. Hating seeing the Expos leave.

As for PHX, that is why I added unless absolutely necessary. It maybe at that point. I really have no idea, as I don't really keep up with that saga beyond the surface news I hear. And it doesn't sound good.

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02-16-2013, 11:09 AM
  #198
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You obviously didn't watch him much with the Leafs if you can't understand the parallel I'm drawing. There is a reason he was being labeled a bust.

I'll just leave it at that.
You keep bringing up that Schenn and Kadri were labeled busts. I've seen Schenn play countless times now as I live near Philly and catch many of their games. Despite his struggles it was quite clear why he was as highly thought of as he was. From my limited time seeing Kadri before this year, the same thing applied. He struggled, but the talent was evident. With Tangradi he struggled, showed no talent, didn't throw his body around, and looked like a career ECHLer. It's an apples and oranges comparsion, at best.

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02-16-2013, 11:11 AM
  #199
Jag68Sid87
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I suppose it takes a master of hyperbole to know one, but Tangradi an ECHLer? Come on.

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02-16-2013, 11:12 AM
  #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkin112 View Post
- Malkin and Crosby seems to lost their goal scoring confidence.
Malkin has SH% 6.4 and Crosby 10.
This is a plus for me in the future. I get nervous when a guy is at like 25% because that means there aren't enough scoring plays. Wait til these guys double their output. It's only going to be great.

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