My objection is to the point of view that the draft choice is the goal not the result.
My opinion was explained a few pages back in this thread. I'm of the belief that the team has to be competitive before anything else. Winning environments - even if you aren't a winning team - is the only way to properly develop prospects, and is the key to success.
If guys make the team based on their talent alone, there is no reason to compete. If guys have to out-work other guys who simply show up with blue collar effort to make the team, then chances are, they will work harder and show character, which will result in stronger development.
In essence, hard work is contagious, and breeds hard work. Combine hard work, skill, and team play, and you have all of the ingredients for championships.
No one here has suggested we actually TANK. No one has ever suggested benching players just so we lose or to purposely lose. Personally just once id like to see the jackets get a player in the draft who makes a instant impact is that too much to ask for? Nash was all fine and dandy and hooray for his successes in NYR so far, but the jackets are so close to being a really good strong franchise. This season I don't really see us making the playoffs with a new GM and President. I would be more than willing to let them test all the players out in all situations to see what they really have. Another franchise player on this roster and one or two more skilled helpers and this team is a playoff contender for years. Whatever happens this season is whatever. My sights are set on the deadline, draft, and the first day of training camp. It's just what I've come accustomed to being a jackets fan, that little bit of hope for next season after a draft or big trade.
If the Jackets had been entirely eliminated from the playoffs and only one game remained, and winning that one game lowered the Jackets' chances of getting the #1 pick from 25% to 18.8%, would it not behoove them to lose?
If the Jackets had been entirely eliminated from the playoffs and only one game remained, and winning that one game lowered the Jackets' chances of getting the #1 pick from 25% to 18.8%, would it not behoove them to lose?
If Edmonton is in contention for #1 overall, it won't make any difference anyway.
If the Jackets had been entirely eliminated from the playoffs and only one game remained, and winning that one game lowered the Jackets' chances of getting the #1 pick from 25% to 18.8%, would it not behoove them to lose?
Which is exactly why they would win! Was it two years ago, where a win on the final day would have taken them from fourth to like seventh at the draft? I may be thinking of something else, though.
Which is exactly why they would win! Was it two years ago, where a win on the final day would have taken them from fourth to like seventh at the draft? I may be thinking of something else, though.
Probably for the best right? I mean, winning a meaningless game no one will care about 1 hr afterwards might save a modicum of honor.
The jackets have all but already been eliminated from the playoffs. No one will remember these days 3-4 years from now with a little luck. And if we're still losing, well no one will remember because no one will care.
If the Jackets had been entirely eliminated from the playoffs and only one game remained, and winning that one game lowered the Jackets' chances of getting the #1 pick from 25% to 18.8%, would it not behoove them to lose?
Doesn't matter to me. Play the game as best one can. If it turns out we lose regardless, then, hey, at least we get a nice draft pick.
As Roadman put it, having that as the result is fine, but having it as the goal is still despicable.
And I'm going to reiterate this again 'cause folks keep missing it: This is not about somehow already having respect and not wanting to lose it. That's a strawman. We do not have respect. We are trying to GAIN respect for once, and you do not GAIN respect if you get there via cheapass shortcuts that everybody despises.
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Remember - when you're a hockey fan, it's not "reckless driving", it's "good forechecking".
"Viqsi, you are our sweet humanist..." --mt-svk on the CBJ boards
Thanks, Howson, for cleaning up MacLean's toxic waste. Welcome, Kekalainen; let's get good things built!
Doesn't matter to me. Play the game as best one can. If it turns out we lose regardless, then, hey, at least we get a nice draft pick.
As Roadman put it, having that as the result is fine, but having it as the goal is still despicable.
And I'm going to reiterate this again 'cause folks keep missing it: This is not about somehow already having respect and not wanting to lose it. That's a strawman. We do not have respect. We are trying to GAIN respect for once, and you do not GAIN respect if you get there via cheapass shortcuts that everybody despises.
Can you please show me a player/coach/gm/president who is taking "cheapass shortcuts"?
This team lacks the skill to put up W' s let alone multiple W's in a row. So anything that happens whether it's trading Brassard, Umberger, Wiz or even JMFJ isn't an attempt to tank for the best pick its an attempt to retool for next season. The end result of which has a possibility of drafting top 3-5
Can you please show me a player/coach/gm/president who is taking "cheapass shortcuts"?
This team lacks the skill to put up W' s let alone multiple W's in a row. So anything that happens whether it's trading Brassard, Umberger, Wiz or even JMFJ isn't an attempt to tank for the best pick its an attempt to retool for next season. The end result of which has a possibility of drafting top 3-5
None of them are, which is something of a relief for me. But we've already had one ill-conceived bitter fan protest re: front office decisions, and I would much prefer that if there is to be another that it not be over our "inability to lose". **** that ****.
None of them are, which is something of a relief for me. But we've already had one ill-conceived bitter fan protest re: front office decisions, and I would much prefer that if there is to be another that it not be over our "inability to lose". **** that ****.
I may disagree with some of your views but this is something that I agree with 110%. It is one thing to complain that the team you love is being run badly, but it is another entirely to advocate losing.
Actually on topic for once in the last few pages I just spent some time going over highlights/film of Drouin and it really changed my opinion of him. I'm still worried about his game translating to the NHL (he tries to make the flashy play all the time, he does not simplify his game) but the hockey intelligence the kid has really is starting to win me over. He has a sixth sense of where people will be and has the instincts to know so that he can best make use of his linemates. If he can toughen up and simplify his game I would not be shocked to see him become a slightly larger St. Louis.
For the first time in my life as a sports fan, I am officially rooting against the Jackets.
If we manage to finish 30th again, no guarantees on lottery night, but at least we know we are going to get 1 of the top 2 studs, a must at this point.
For all you guys talking about having the #1 pick. If I am not mistaking, under the new cba all teams that miss the playoff will be treated the same. No limits on how far up or down you can fall. So the 17th place team (best team not making the playoffs) can win the 1st pick, and the worse team can end up picking 14th.
So if we end up with 2 picks in the lottery, we could essentially pick 1 - 2, or 13 - 14.
Not correct. The bottom 14 teams have a chance at the #1 pick only. Every team would simply slot down 1. So if CBJ is the worst they can still end up with no worse than the #2 pick.
As a lifelong fan of the CBJ and Cleveland Pro Sports Teams, I've had a lot of experience with this topic of losing for draft position. The argument comes up with every losing team as the draft nears, should we lose for a better pick.
My goal for the CBJ is the same as my goal for the Indians, Browns, and Cavs- win multiple championships.
In order to win multiple championships all my teams need to get better talent. You get better talent by drafting elite players, no matter what sport.
The CBJ are an excellent example of how to screw up a draft. They consistently win just enough games to miss out on the elite talent.
So yes, I'm for taking advantage of every possible opportunity to get better players. While I don't watch games hoping we lose, I do see the bigger picture and realize it's not the worst thing in the world. I don't find it despicable in any way and I don't think it makes anyone less of a fan to root for your team to get the #1 pick.
I also don't think less of other fans who root for a victory and don't care about draft position. This is their right as fans and even though it may be myopic, I get the passion.
Bottom line- Neither side of this argument is any more or any less of a fan.
[QUOTE=Stretch Factor;59832557]As a lifelong fan of the CBJ and Cleveland Pro Sports Teams, I've had a lot of experience with this topic of losing for draft position. The argument comes up with every losing team as the draft nears, should we lose for a better pick.
My goal for the CBJ is the same as my goal for the Indians, Browns, and Cavs- win multiple championships.
In order to win multiple championships all my teams need to get better talent. You get better talent by drafting elite players, no matter what sport.
The CBJ are an excellent example of how to screw up a draft. They consistently win just enough games to miss out on the elite talent.
QUOTE]
Right there with you stretch, been following these teams for over 50 years, Jackets since they came into the league. I remember the old Columbus Seals and would go to the fairgrounds to watch those games.
I was just talking to my brother how the Jackets kind of paralel the Browns since the Browns reurn. It's kind of scary.
The CBJ are an excellent example of how to screw up a draft. They consistently win just enough games to miss out on the elite talent.
I reject this theory. We frequently see examples of elite talent drafted before AND AFTER our picks. Better scouting plays a large role in that. While it is undoubtedly easier to pick elite talents with higher draft picks (because at that point there's a lot more research data available), it is certainly not a requirement, and therefore it SHOULD NOT be a goal.
I reject this theory. We frequently see examples of elite talent drafted before AND AFTER our picks. Better scouting plays a large role in that. While it is undoubtedly easier to pick elite talents with higher draft picks (because at that point there's a lot more research data available), it is certainly not a requirement, and therefore it SHOULD NOT be a goal.
It's far easier for teams drafting after the Jackets to develop players in a winning environment where they are surrounded by veterans.
The Jackets are stuck in the area where they aren't able to get elite forwards who can immediately give the team a boost, but not in a postion where they have the ability to develop players.
You take a player like Cam Fowler, who drops into the Duck's laps and they can immediately put him into a solid defensive group and have him live with Scott Niedermayer's family. If he was drafted by the Jackets, there's a good chance he would be labeled a bust right now and the Ducks would have drafted a different defenseman who would be a star.
With this draft class, hopefully there's more depth of talent. It's not just one or two forwards with first line potential, but 5-6. But there has to be the right atmosphere for them to be successful and they have to be surrounded by quality teammates.
It's far easier for teams drafting after the Jackets to develop players in a winning environment where they are surrounded by veterans.
The Jackets are stuck in the area where they aren't able to get elite forwards who can immediately give the team a boost, but not in a postion where they have the ability to develop players.
You take a player like Cam Fowler, who drops into the Duck's laps and they can immediately put him into a solid defensive group and have him live with Scott Niedermayer's family. If he was drafted by the Jackets, there's a good chance he would be labeled a bust right now and the Ducks would have drafted a different defenseman who would be a star.
With this draft class, hopefully there's more depth of talent. It's not just one or two forwards with first line potential, but 5-6. But there has to be the right atmosphere for them to be successful and they have to be surrounded by quality teammates.
The only thing that saves me is I'm also an OSU alum, so at least I've had some pretty good football and basketball teams in the recent past.
If not for that, I'd probably have to give up sports and go to the symphony or some artsy crap with my wife.
By the way, I suspect there are a lot of Central Ohio sports fans like me, which means when the CBJ do finally get good, we're going to blow the roof off this city.
