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Cole's Plus/Minus: Pens vs. Jets - Adams >>> Tangradi

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02-16-2013, 11:14 AM
  #201
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
I suppose it takes a master of hyperbole to know one, but Tangradi an ECHLer? Come on.
Hyperbole aside, he certainly didn't look anything like the guy who has put up respectable numbers in the A, nor a guy who was once drafted in the second round.

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02-16-2013, 11:15 AM
  #202
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...almost drafted by Shero in the second round, at that.

That would have made the whole situation even worse. Not that it's great, as is.

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02-16-2013, 11:21 AM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Sure it does.
Jig, w/r/t Tangradi, you were talking about how where you're drafted shouldn't have any bearing on how much NHL rope you're given, then proceeded to wax about how well Kadri's done now that he's been given a chance.

Unlike Tangradi, Kadri was obviously a top 10 pick and ultra-skilled. One situation could not have less to do with the other.

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Great org can develop talent while contending.

The last time I checked, DB reliance on vets only has lead to three straight playoff disappointments.
Relying on vets was the least of our concerns in those playoff losses.

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How many points did he score?

Or anyone else paraded onto that line?
Tangradi had a good game playing on the fourth line, where he should of been all along, before he got benched.

Don't tell me they couldn't of kept him there since last season and kept winning.
Nobody. Because none of our options for that role have been very good, including Tangradi.

The funny part about Tangradi is that when he got 4th line minutes, people complained that he wasn't being put in a position to succeed on a scoring line.

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It's obvious this team lacks a physical edge without Bort and Despres logging significant minutes. They are rookies, so obviously they can't make a difference, especially since one guy is a "meat and potatoes" player many people were ready to cast aside.

As for Despres getting in over Lovejoy... I mean... C'mon.
Bort and Despres have been good. I don't think they're good enough to bench or diminish the TOI of any of the regulars. It's great that they have the size and snarl to give us a different look when another vet goes down.

As for Despres over Lovejoy...yeah, what? That's exactly the sort of "rookie over mediocre vet" move that people say DB doesn't make. Except he did.

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DB has no options left. I don't see BB in the lineup as a sign he is changing. Despres perhaps, not BB.
Of course he has options left. The whole argument against DB is that he would call up career AHLers/fringe NHLers to fill roster spots over rookies. Remember? Chris Conner? Richard Park? Cal O'Reilly? Colin McDonald?

There's no shortage of these types available in the organization. But he's giving BB a shot instead (even over Jeffrey) because he's skilled enough to make the potential payoff worth it.

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But TK doesn't?

Awesome message.
TK's a vet who's consistently proven he can produce at a .5 PPG level. He's been talked to by the coaches, but he gets more rope to get himself back on track because of his track record.

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I know this sounds out there, but guys who aren't high end prospects can actually help your team. I know the concept is whacked out, but I've seen it happen a few times... Maybe more.

Bort and Vitale are proof of that, when they aren't being benched.
Yep. They just have to keep bringing it every night and hope they impress enough to earn them a full-time spot.

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02-16-2013, 11:26 AM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
It's called trusting your young players and letting them grow.

It applies to all prospects.

It is quite a simple concept.
Not equally, it doesn't.

Kadri was a top 10 pick and more talented - with much more potential payoff - than the likes of Tangradi, who you were griping about not getting a shot.

DB is showing with Despres and Bennett that he is more than willing to do the same when the prospect has higher-end talent.

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02-16-2013, 11:30 AM
  #205
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Not to mention, it's pretty ridiculous to talk about not giving young players a chance when Boychuk's been given this extended look with Malkin and Neal.

But then he's a high draft pick, right?

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02-16-2013, 11:30 AM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Malkin4Top6Wingerz View Post
You keep bringing up that Schenn and Kadri were labeled busts. I've seen Schenn play countless times now as I live near Philly and catch many of their games. Despite his struggles it was quite clear why he was as highly thought of as he was. From my limited time seeing Kadri before this year, the same thing applied. He struggled, but the talent was evident. With Tangradi he struggled, showed no talent, didn't throw his body around, and looked like a career ECHLer. It's an apples and oranges comparsion, at best.
That is your assessment. I completely disagree with it.

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02-16-2013, 11:31 AM
  #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Not equally, it doesn't.

Kadri was a top 10 pick and obviously more talented - with much more potential payoff - than the likes of Tangradi, who you were griping about not getting a shot.

DB is showing with Despres and Bennett that he is more than willing to do the same when the prospect has higher-end talent.
I think you might be looking too far into where the draft pick was made. I think he's talking about just giving someone a shot. As in - Boychuk was giving a few games w/o being benched and stuff like that. Could we have seen the same from ET? I just think a shot should have been given.

Example: Is it fair Martin was never benched last year, but if Strait made one mistake his ass would be sitting?

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02-16-2013, 11:35 AM
  #208
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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
I think you might be looking too far into where the draft pick was made. I think he's talking about just giving someone a shot. As in - Boychuk was giving a few games w/o being benched and stuff like that. Could we have seen the same from ET? I just think a shot should have been given.

Example: Is it fair Martin was never benched last year, but if Strait made one mistake his ass would be sitting?
another example: rather than the merry-go-round on the 2nd line, would the team lose anything if ET, Boychuk, one of the kids in WBS, etc... were given a real look over someone like Kennedy or Adams?

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02-16-2013, 11:36 AM
  #209
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
That is your assessment. I completely disagree with it.
What do you disagree with? That Schenn and Kadri showed flashes of their ability prior to being given extended opportunities or that Tangradi was unable to do the same?

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02-16-2013, 11:39 AM
  #210
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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
I think you might be looking too far into where the draft pick was made. I think he's talking about just giving someone a shot. As in - Boychuk was giving a few games w/o being benched and stuff like that. Could we have seen the same from ET? I just think a shot should have been given.
ET played on the 4th line for most of his time here, and wasn't very good. People (including myself) clamored for him to be put in a position to succeed playing on a scoring line. He then - in spite of not being a very productive AHL player - gets an opportunity to play with the reigning scoring champ and 1st team All-Star, and looks like hot garbage.

He got more of a chance than anyone with his track record, skillset, or pedigree should reasonably hope to get. Of all the guys we've tried in that LW spot, he looked the worst. Young/old, skilled/grinder, didn't matter. He looked worse than Tanner Glass, man.

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Example: Is it fair Martin was never benched last year, but if Strait made one mistake his ass would be sitting?
Bylsma was hoping that the pride that lit a fire under Martin's ass this year would've kicked in a little earlier. If it had, we'd all have sung his praises. In hindsight, he should've rode the pine.

Then again, did Martin really deserve a spot on the team this year based on what he did last season? Sometimes a coach's faith in his vets bouncing back pays off, and sometimes it doesn't.

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02-16-2013, 11:41 AM
  #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
another example: rather than the merry-go-round on the 2nd line, would the team lose anything if ET, Boychuk, one of the kids in WBS, etc... were given a real look over someone like Kennedy or Adams?
It's too much to harp on anymore,but yeah. It was just wasted time. I'm not a big fan of line juggling. I think players should get a shot to work it out and grow chemistry. The best player in the world believes it takes a full year to gain that chemistry. Not 6 minutes.

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Originally Posted by Malkin4Top6Wingerz View Post
What do you disagree with? That Schenn and Kadri showed flashes of their ability prior to being given extended opportunities or that Tangradi was unable to do the same?
I thought ET looked great against Tampa in the playoffs and lead to our ONE powerplay goal. He's shown signs of being a bruiser, too. Then he sits for 80% of the game. So yes.. I think he showed some talent. I won't put all the blame on DB. I think some of it is on ET.

You just know when he arrived at Winnipeg, it was the most focus he's had in his career. That happens when your back is up against a wall.

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02-16-2013, 11:41 AM
  #212
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Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
another example: rather than the merry-go-round on the 2nd line, would the team lose anything if ET, Boychuk, one of the kids in WBS, etc... were given a real look over someone like Kennedy or Adams?
Bylsma would probably lose the locker room if he started benching veterans left and right for the likes of fringe NHL players with hypothetical potential, even if it probably doesn't hurt the team on the ice necessarily.

Whether or not it's the right thing to do, I just don't see other coaches doing anything differently. It's the way the league works. Veterans get much more rope than younger players, especially ones who haven't proven anything at that level.

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02-16-2013, 11:47 AM
  #213
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Originally Posted by Malkin4Top6Wingerz View Post
Bylsma would probably lose the locker room if he started benching veterans left and right for the likes of fringe NHL players with hypothetical potential, even if it probably doesn't hurt the team on the ice necessarily.

Whether or not it's the right thing to do, I just don't see other coaches doing anything differently. It's the way the league works. Veterans get much more rope than younger players, especially ones who haven't proven anything at that level.
Teams move on from veterans all the time.

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02-16-2013, 11:50 AM
  #214
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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
I thought ET looked great against Tampa in the playoffs and lead to our ONE powerplay goal. He's shown signs of being a bruiser, too. Then he sits for 80% of the game. So yes.. I think he showed some talent. I won't put all the blame on DB. I think some of it is on ET.
I don't remember much of note that ET did in that series, and if he did, it certainly didn't carry over to the following season or beyond.

Tangradi has shown signs of being physical in the past, absolutely. It partly was his bone crushing hits against the Islanders that led to the debacle on Long Island where Gillies jumped him and all hell broke loose. Where did that aspect of his game go? Bylsma loves to see that kind of thing from his players, there's no way he discouraged Tangradi from throwing his body around. The way Tangradi played, the lack of physicality, the inability to create, that's all on him.

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You just know when he arrived at Winnipeg, it was the most focus he's had in his career. That happens when your back is up against a wall.
Right. Boychuk was the same way. His first game he looked good and looked like he might actually be able to play. Then he began to fizzle out and now he's sitting in the press box. We'll see what happens with Tangradi, but that's probably the best game he'll play all year.

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02-16-2013, 11:51 AM
  #215
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The main thing for me, RRP, is I just want to know. I just want to know if they aren't a good player by putting them in that spot and seeing what they do. I think Tangradi earned a spot to see just what he was made of for 5-10 games. Full shifts. I think DJ is another guy who deserves it. Majority of the people here know I think DJ doesn't have the NHL skills, but I still want to know. I could be 100% wrong.

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02-16-2013, 11:55 AM
  #216
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Jig, w/r/t Tangradi, you were talking about how where you're drafted shouldn't have any bearing on how much NHL rope you're given, then proceeded to wax about how well Kadri's done now that he's been given a chance.

Unlike Tangradi, Kadri was obviously a top 10 pick and ultra-skilled. One situation could not have less to do with the other.
Trusting young players regardless of where they were drafted is a universal ingredient if you want to develop them properly.

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Relying on vets was the least of our concerns in those playoff losses.
Really? Who were the ones making the mistakes in those series?

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Nobody. Because none of our options for that role have been very good, including Tangradi.

The funny part about Tangradi is that when he got 4th line minutes, people complained that he wasn't being put in a position to succeed on a scoring line.
I'm not concerned what others said. I've said over and over that is where he needs to be.

There is no excuse you can make to explain why he never got consistent fourth line minutes.

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Bort and Despres have been good. I don't think they're good enough to bench or diminish the TOI of any of the regulars. It's great that they have the size and snarl to give us a different look when another vet goes down.
Bort outplayed Engo leading up to Nisky's return and he is still not playing well. Bort got a seat on the bench because he is a rookie. Admit that much.

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As for Despres over Lovejoy...yeah, what? That's exactly the sort of "rookie over mediocre vet" move that people say DB doesn't make. Except he did.
When you have to use the benching of Lovejoy for Despres, you are reaching way down into the barrel....

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Of course he has options left. The whole argument against DB is that he would call up career AHLers/fringe NHLers to fill roster spots over rookies. Remember? Chris Conner? Richard Park? Cal O'Reilly? Colin McDonald?

There's no shortage of these types available in the organization. But he's giving BB a shot instead (even over Jeffrey) because he's skilled enough to make the potential payoff worth it.
Bro, as I said, there are no options left. DB isn't stupid and anyone who has watched WBS this year knows exactly what I'm saying.

DB follows his farm and knows if BB doesn't work out, they are ****ed unless a trade is done.

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TK's a vet who's consistently proven he can produce at a .5 PPG level. He's been talked to by the coaches, but he gets more rope to get himself back on track because of his track record.
And that is the problem.

It's ironic DB gives his vets time to work their **** out, but thinks his rookies will thrive getting benched and having limited minutes.

Once again we are back to the trust issue.

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Yep. They just have to keep bringing it every night and hope they impress enough to earn them a full-time spot.
So basically you mean a guy like Bort will just play when there is an injury, because DB isn't benching a vet. Lets not forget Jeffrey who played so well the TSN guys kept complimenting him. That earned him a seat on the bench. So even playing well like Bort and Jeffrey gets them no where.

When DB makes the entire team accountable, and not just his rookies, I will give him full credit. I've defended him over and over, but I'm not going to defend him on this issue until I see a real change and willingness to trust rookies.

Not just when there are injuries and he is out of options.

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02-16-2013, 11:55 AM
  #217
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Man am I tired of talking about Eric Tangradi. The only thing that will tell if we made a mistake is time. No one is going to win this argument right now because one game isn't enough to make a judgement either way.

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02-16-2013, 11:55 AM
  #218
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Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
Teams move on from veterans all the time.
That's not what you asked. You asked, essentially, why the Penguins aren't benching veterans in favor of fringe NHL players who might have potential. I'm telling you teams just don't do that.

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02-16-2013, 11:56 AM
  #219
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Originally Posted by Malkin4Top6Wingerz View Post
What do you disagree with? That Schenn and Kadri showed flashes of their ability prior to being given extended opportunities or that Tangradi was unable to do the same?
I don't think Schenn and Kadri were as impressive as you are trying to imply, or that ET played as poorly as you think.

I watched both Kadri and Schenn a ton last year and they looked like garbage, mostly. You can dig up all of the busts threads made about them if you like.

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02-16-2013, 11:58 AM
  #220
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Schenn and Kadri both looked largely like hot garbage up until recently. At least at the NHL level.

I'm not sure what players other people were watching.

EDIT: HA! Jiggy got to it before me...

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02-16-2013, 12:01 PM
  #221
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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
The main thing for me, RRP, is I just want to know. I just want to know if they aren't a good player by putting them in that spot and seeing what they do. I think Tangradi earned a spot to see just what he was made of for 5-10 games. Full shifts. I think DJ is another guy who deserves it. Majority of the people here know I think DJ doesn't have the NHL skills, but I still want to know. I could be 100% wrong.
I think sometimes we put so much time and effort into knowing these prospects that come up through the system that we don't want to part with them until we're absolutely, positively, 100% sure that they won't pan out for us. Tango had lots of chances to prove himself on the 4th line, and a glorious, short opportunity very few players get to prove himself with elite NHL players.

He failed in both roles, and in the meantime we not only picked up a more skilled, productive, pedigreed winger via waivers (Boychuk), but had a young in-house option who looked better than Tangradi too (Jeffrey), and a prized 1st rounder who's impressed at every level get healthy (Bennett).

Sometimes you only get one shot. ET missed his chance to blow. That opportunity comes once in a lifetime.

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02-16-2013, 12:02 PM
  #222
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Originally Posted by Malkin4Top6Wingerz View Post
That's not what you asked. You asked, essentially, why the Penguins aren't benching veterans in favor of fringe NHL players who might have potential. I'm telling you teams just don't do that.
kind of like when the Jets shipped Poni out in favor of Tangradi?

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02-16-2013, 12:07 PM
  #223
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+ looking forward to seeing each shift of a certain player other than Malkin / Crosby . That's what Bennett did for me last night. Finally have another skilled forward. Please continue to develop

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02-16-2013, 12:07 PM
  #224
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Shero actually waived Recchi to give Kennedy more playing time or at least that's what he said. That of course was under a different coach.

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02-16-2013, 12:12 PM
  #225
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The Pens passing in that game was sloppy. Too many times the puck was too far ahead or behind the target player.

The combinations in the top two lines bug me. Really wish we could get a top 6 forward

Also I think we were pushed around a bit too much. Could do with a bottom six forward who likes to throw the body.

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