HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Pittsburgh Penguins
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Waivers, Sunk Costs, and the Pittsburgh Penguins (Roster Mgmt.)

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-16-2013, 01:34 PM
  #1
mrzeigler
Geno and Juss '13
 
mrzeigler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Pittsburgh
Country: United States
Posts: 3,166
vCash: 500
Waivers, Sunk Costs, and the Pittsburgh Penguins (Roster Mgmt.)

I didn't see this referenced on here from The Hockey Writers. Interesting read of waivers and the ever-discussed topic of asset management: Waivers, Sunk Costs, and the Pittsburgh Penguins.

It's a much, much, much better read than the story THW posted recently about the Malkin/Ovechkin rivalry.

Two of the more interesting parts, IMO:

Quote:
Why was he able to trade Letestu, Lovejoy, and Tangradi, but not Johnson and Strait? Other than pure and simple talent, there are a few factors to consider:

Teams keep up-to-the-minute depth charts of the 29 other organizations around the league. They can anticipate when Shero is going to be in a roster pinch and will be forced to trade or waive a player.
If you’re an opposing GM and injuries leave you with a hole to fill, there’s more urgency to grab the Penguins castoff before other teams have a chance to. Maybe that means sending a low pick to Shero, but if you think the player will be waived and your team is first in waiver priority, you wait.
Waiting, however, comes with the risk that another GM is more desperate than you and will make the trade you weren’t willing to.
It’s essentially a poker game.

Shero tries to touch base with every GM at least once a month during the season. When these roster pinches occur, he has to convince other teams that it’s worth making a trade as opposed to waiting for waivers. He could always bluff directly to other GM’s, but risking credibility over fifth-round picks doesn’t lead to a long NHL management career.

It’s safer to do it indirectly. Maybe word leaks that “multiple teams” are interested in trading for a soon-to-be waived player. The key is to create demand and a market for a deal.
and

Quote:
The Penguins invested heavily in his development, in addition to the world-class facilities provided to all players at the minor league level. Assistant coach Tony Granato, player development coach Bill Guerin, and other front office members worked with Tangradi one-on-one to try to mold him into an NHL player. The team pushed him into leadership positions in Wilkes-Barre (AHL) and had him mentoring younger players at the team’s summer prospect camps. The organization spent significant resources on the development of Lovejoy, Strait, Johnson, and Letestu as well.

Perhaps the team’s development process can be questioned for not turning Tangradi and others into permanent Penguins (although all are playing at the NHL level right now), but Shero’s willingness to unload these players for little or no return is actually good asset management.

Consider the concept of sunk costs:
A “sunk cost” is a cost that you have already incurred and that you cannot recover. People often have an irrational desire to use products for which they have paid a lot of money, or to continue following a plan that has required a great investment. They think that if they abandon the product or change their approach, they will be throwing money or time away. That’s not true – the money and time have already been thrown away. Continuing to use a bad product or to follow a bad plan is only increasing the amount being thrown away.
It doesn’t matter how much time or money the Penguins already spent on Tangradi’s development. It doesn’t matter that he was the promising prospect expected to convincingly tip the scales of the Whitney-Kunitz trade in Pittsburgh’s favor. It doesn’t matter that he scored only one goal in 45 NHL games, and it wouldn’t matter if he had scored 100 either.

Forget the sunk costs. All that matters to Shero is what Eric Tangradi can be reasonably expected to contribute to the Pittsburgh Penguins moving forward. Based on his comments, he decided that a low draft pick and the opportunity to give Bennett a look was worth more than any potential upside for Tangradi in Pittsburgh.

mrzeigler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2013, 01:41 PM
  #2
Rowdy Roddy Peeper
**** You, Duthie
 
Rowdy Roddy Peeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 43,653
vCash: 500
Solid article. But again, we didn't have to lose Strait at all because of the roster limit. If we had waived Lovejoy to begin with, we'd still have Strait.

/deadhorse

Rowdy Roddy Peeper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2013, 01:47 PM
  #3
eXile59
Shirts on.
 
eXile59's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: PA
Posts: 16,305
vCash: 500
This is being discussed in every other thread. There is no need for another one of these.

eXile59 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2013, 01:57 PM
  #4
IHWR
The Chiropractor
 
IHWR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Ottawa, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,396
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Solid article. But again, we didn't have to lose Strait at all because of the roster limit. If we had waived Lovejoy to begin with, we'd still have Strait.

/deadhorse
Enough of Brian Strait already. There's a reason that both he ad Lovejou aren't with the organization anymore. The Pens felt that Lovejoy was a marginally better NHL defensemen which is why they waived Strait, then they felt that both Bortuzzo and Despres were better NHL defensemen than Lovejoy so they traded him. Based on the returns, I'd say their estamation wasn't far off the league consensus. If you disagree, that's awesome but you also don't get paid for your evaluation of talent,

It's amazing to me that people didn't see something like this coming with the incredible depth the Pens have on defense in the pipeline. Instead of constantly bringing up who isn't here and how awesome you think they'd be, just appreciate the young guys that are in the lineup.

Oh...and this isn't directed at my man DD...i'm just using his post as a jumping of point before I have to hear more garbage about borderline NHL defensemen.

IHWR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2013, 01:57 PM
  #5
mrzeigler
Geno and Juss '13
 
mrzeigler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Pittsburgh
Country: United States
Posts: 3,166
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
This is being discussed in every other thread. There is no need for another one of these.
I thought the "sunk costs" concept was a new angle of the issue and the article was worth its own thread because it's not obvious that discussions of the team's wholesale approach to asset management is taking place in threads with titles specifically devoted to single players such as Tangradi, Lovejoy and Strait.


Last edited by mrzeigler: 02-16-2013 at 04:12 PM.
mrzeigler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2013, 02:06 PM
  #6
Rowdy Roddy Peeper
**** You, Duthie
 
Rowdy Roddy Peeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 43,653
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by IHWR View Post
Enough of Brian Strait already. There's a reason that both he ad Lovejou aren't with the organization anymore. The Pens felt that Lovejoy was a marginally better NHL defensemen which is why they waived Strait, then they felt that both Bortuzzo and Despres were better NHL defensemen than Lovejoy so they traded him. Based on the returns, I'd say their estamation wasn't far off the league consensus. If you disagree, that's awesome but you also don't get paid for your evaluation of talent,

It's amazing to me that people didn't see something like this coming with the incredible depth the Pens have on defense in the pipeline. Instead of constantly bringing up who isn't here and how awesome you think they'd be, just appreciate the young guys that are in the lineup.

Oh...and this isn't directed at my man DD...i'm just using his post as a jumping of point before I have to hear more garbage about borderline NHL defensemen.
I don't think anybody on the board is. I'm guessing dissension is still allowed, and it is sort of the point of the article, haha.

Like I've said though, he's really the only waiver-wire fodder I took issue with. I like that we have depth in the pipeline, but when the party line is that you draft BPA and deal from a position of strength to fill roster holes as required, then just give away solid young defensemen for the likes of Lovejoy, there's gonna be some justified head-scratching. Especially if we want to make a deal for a scoring wing at the deadline and a prospective trade partner wants a quality roster defenseman as part of the deal.

For the record though, I love Bort and Despres.

Rowdy Roddy Peeper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2013, 02:24 PM
  #7
#66
Registered User
 
#66's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Country: United States
Posts: 10,340
vCash: 500
Blah players playing for bottom feeder teams. Who cares and so what?

I have more of a problem with Malone, Scuds, Gill and Talbot being let go for nothing and lesser FA's coming in for lesser quality play.

#66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2013, 02:33 PM
  #8
Rowdy Roddy Peeper
**** You, Duthie
 
Rowdy Roddy Peeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 43,653
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by #66 View Post
I have more of a problem with Malone, Scuds, Gill and Talbot being let go for nothing and lesser FA's coming in for lesser quality play.
We let most of them go because they didn't fit into our salary structure.

I don't have a problem with that.

Rowdy Roddy Peeper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2013, 03:20 PM
  #9
Sorry
Registered User
 
Sorry's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 7,257
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by #66 View Post
Blah players playing for bottom feeder teams. Who cares and so what?

I have more of a problem with Malone, Scuds, Gill and Talbot being let go for nothing and lesser FA's coming in for lesser quality play.
Yeah, he's really lighting the world on fire this season.

Sorry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2013, 03:46 PM
  #10
Darth Vitale
Moderator
Transitional Period
 
Darth Vitale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Victoryville
Country: United States
Posts: 25,614
vCash: 500
Stick to asset management concepts; that's sufficiently different than discussing a single player's worth (what we already have on the boards in different places).

If this devolves into a Brian Strait wake or Tangradi wake, I'm locking it.

Darth Vitale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2013, 03:57 PM
  #11
Ogrezilla
Nerf Herder
 
Ogrezilla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 34,557
vCash: 500
I really think we'd have kept Malone if Shero didn't fully expect to get Hossa re-signed. We also went on to immediately win a Stanley Cup the following year, so given a chance to go back and redo that off-season, I wouldn't change a thing. This is coming from a huge Malone fanboy.

Ogrezilla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2013, 04:03 PM
  #12
Darth Vitale
Moderator
Transitional Period
 
Darth Vitale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Victoryville
Country: United States
Posts: 25,614
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
I really think we'd have kept Malone if Shero didn't fully expect to get Hossa re-signed. We also went on to immediately win a Stanley Cup the following year, so given a chance to go back and redo that off-season, I wouldn't change a thing. This is coming from a huge Malone fanboy.
I think the main reason Shero let Malone walk was the money. He knew he was going to get a nice pay day and didn't want to pay it. And I remember a lot of people myself included thinking that cap hit was nuts. And he's still got 2.5 seasons left on that puppy, $4.5M per at age 33. Still seems pretty nuts if you ask me, based on what Kunitz gets. I think Shero did well there, irrespective of Hossa.

Darth Vitale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2013, 04:09 PM
  #13
Big McLargehuge
Global Moderator
HFBoards: Night's Watch
 
Big McLargehuge's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Country: Iceland
Posts: 55,113
vCash: 500
Part of Malone not being offered a contract was that Hossa was certainly in the plans...the other half was that we knew that he'd get an absurd offer in free agency that we couldn't hope to match.

That contract was universally seen as absurd when it was signed.

Also it's hilarious bringing Talbot up, considering how ****ing awful he was in his final season here. I was always Talbot's biggest fan, but I had no desire to bring him back considering the direction his play had been headed ever since the 2009 Finals...and certainly not at the cost or term it would require.

FWIW he's back to being awful so far this year.


Scuderi was lost because of the cap. We couldn't afford him at the price he got in LA at the time. It's easy to say 'man, I'd love that $3.5 million cap hit' right now...but that just wasn't feasible in 2009-10.

__________________
“The most terrifying fact about the universe is not that it is hostile, but that it is indifferent. If we can come to terms with this indifference and accept the challenges of life within the boundaries of death, our existence as a species can have genuine meaning and fulfillment. However vast the darkness, we must supply our own light.” - Stanley Kubrick
http://sprites.pokecheck.org/i/054.gif
Big McLargehuge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2013, 04:14 PM
  #14
Darth Vitale
Moderator
Transitional Period
 
Darth Vitale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Victoryville
Country: United States
Posts: 25,614
vCash: 500
I'm curious how this setup works where all the teams have up to the hour reports on all the other teams' roster and cap situation. Sounds like they all have their version of our "capologist". Wonder if there's some kind of NHL database they all get access to, to get that kind of real-time info... as far as the league is concerned it's probably good. The more big trades that happen (in some ways) the more fans are creating buzz / pumped up for the second half (or draft if you're tanking and have a bunch of 1sts).

Darth Vitale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2013, 04:15 PM
  #15
Ogrezilla
Nerf Herder
 
Ogrezilla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 34,557
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
I'm curious how this setup works where all the teams have up to the hour reports on all the other teams' roster and cap situation. Sounds like they all have their version of our "capologist". Wonder if there's some kind of NHL database they all get access to, to get that kind of real-time info... as far as the league is concerned it's probably good. The more big trades that happen (in some ways) the more fans are creating buzz / pumped up for the second half (or draft if you're tanking and have a bunch of 1sts).
www.capgeek.com

Ogrezilla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2013, 04:16 PM
  #16
Zen Arcade
eat the record cover
 
Zen Arcade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Pittsburgh
Country: United States
Posts: 14,784
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big McLargehuge View Post
Part of Malone not being offered a contract was that Hossa was certainly in the plans...the other half was that we knew that he'd get an absurd offer in free agency that we couldn't hope to match.

That contract was universally seen as absurd when it was signed.

Also it's hilarious bringing Talbot up, considering how ****ing awful he was in his final season here. I was always Talbot's biggest fan, but I had no desire to bring him back considering the direction his play had been headed ever since the 2009 Finals...and certainly not at the cost or term it would require.
Yeah, people wanted Talbot gone, he struggled big time that season.

It's funny to see people (not in this thread) say they were mad to see Talbot go and upset that Kennedy was retained, when back then it was the opposite, no one cared much until Talbot signed with Philly and people were worried about losing TK.

There's a fine line between hindsight and revisionist history.

Zen Arcade is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2013, 04:22 PM
  #17
Ogrezilla
Nerf Herder
 
Ogrezilla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 34,557
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen Arcade View Post
Yeah, people wanted Talbot gone, he struggled big time that season.

It's funny to see people (not in this thread) say they were mad to see Talbot go and upset that Kennedy was retained, when back then it was the opposite, no one cared much until Talbot signed with Philly and people were worried about losing TK.

There's a fine line between hindsight and revisionist history.
The majority of this board seemed pretty upset when we re-signed Dupuis as well

Ogrezilla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2013, 04:28 PM
  #18
Zen Arcade
eat the record cover
 
Zen Arcade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Pittsburgh
Country: United States
Posts: 14,784
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
The majority of this board seemed pretty upset when we re-signed Dupuis as well
They'll likely be upset again this summer.

Hell, as recently as this fall I've seen people complaining about the supposed misuse of Janne Pesonen.

Zen Arcade is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2013, 04:30 PM
  #19
Hans Rutherford
Oh no... my brains
 
Hans Rutherford's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,954
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
The majority of this board seemed pretty upset when we re-signed Dupuis as well
I'm just upset he's still in our top-six, but whatever. TK was just coming off a pretty strong season when he resigned, most were hoping he'd keep building off of that season, or at least not regress like he has.

Hans Rutherford is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2013, 04:33 PM
  #20
HandshakeLine
is probso trolling u
 
HandshakeLine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Praha, CZ
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 18,257
vCash: 500
Marginal players and sentimental has-beens aside, I think the article should be mandatory reading here just because it gives you a peek into how front offices actually work. Whether or not people agree with Shero's management style is one thing, but to act like he is a completely passive GM is absurd-- especially given the amount of information we've been privy to about how the Pens are run from 24/7, articles like these, and behind the scenes videos of deadline day. It's not as simple as "Shero Y U No trayd _______?" This is not the 70's. Every team is aware of every other team's weaknesses, salary cap, farm system, and roster issues. To suggest that, some how, magically trades and waivers will work like they do on whatever ****-tastic video game the kids are mashing their HFC-swollen sausage fingers on is lunacy.

(Conversely, nobody knew anything about how CP ran the Pens until after he got the boot-- remember how Shero was the first to get the staff email and how shocked the media was to find that out?)

Bottom line: You can fault Shero's decisions however you want. But I think there needs to be some accounting for the fact that trades and other such roster moves cannot and do not happen in a vacuum, no matter what ill-informed yahoos on a messageboard type. And as such, we should consider that more often when discussing moves, otherwise, the discussion is more deeply flawed than it already is.

HandshakeLine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2013, 04:43 PM
  #21
Darth Vitale
Moderator
Transitional Period
 
Darth Vitale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Victoryville
Country: United States
Posts: 25,614
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
Yah but that can't be counted on as official up to the hour data I don't think. Certainly can't hurt though / keeps them in teh ballpark.

Darth Vitale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2013, 04:44 PM
  #22
HandshakeLine
is probso trolling u
 
HandshakeLine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Praha, CZ
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 18,257
vCash: 500
Not to kick a dead horse, but I also suspect that the role of the coach as a development hinderer is severely overblown in general. Prospects who have been misused will not be successful in the short term, sure. But to imply that necessarily every misuse permanently damages the prospect (without the prospect having any agency whatsoever in the matter) seems entirely too simplistic to me. Perhaps that's why people like it as an explanation? Either way, if that was truly the case, then players like Neal should not have been able to rebound after their trades and players like Alexandre Daigle (who were given tons of opportunity and still couldn't develop) just shouldn't happen.

I dunno. But considering the fact that the organization has people dedicated to conditioning, a developmental director who is an incredibly respected NHL vet, a cap department, a skating coach, and a farm team synced closely to the big club, one wonders at what point we can admit when players just don't improve and that's on them?

What more should an organization do to develop players that the Pens aren't doing? Well, besides letting HF dictate the line-up and ice-time?


Last edited by HandshakeLine: 02-16-2013 at 04:51 PM.
HandshakeLine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2013, 04:45 PM
  #23
HandshakeLine
is probso trolling u
 
HandshakeLine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Praha, CZ
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 18,257
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Yah but that can't be counted on as official up to the hour data I don't think. Certainly can't hurt though / keeps them in teh ballpark.
There is a reason many clubs hired people with advanced degrees to be their cap gurus-- the CBA is difficult to parse and there's a lot of variables to consider.

HandshakeLine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2013, 04:50 PM
  #24
Darth Vitale
Moderator
Transitional Period
 
Darth Vitale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Victoryville
Country: United States
Posts: 25,614
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HandshakeLine View Post
There is a reason many clubs hired people with advanced degrees to be their cap gurus-- the CBA is difficult to parse and there's a lot of variables to consider.
For sure. If my community college ever offers an associates degree in capalogy, I'm getting one so I can apply for an assistant Capologist position with the Hawks and act as a double-agent. "Absolutely! You'll want to take a close look at Kennedy's value and corsi numbers. A perfect fit for us. Saad seems like a fair return given our quantum player ratios and overall power index."

Darth Vitale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2013, 04:51 PM
  #25
HandshakeLine
is probso trolling u
 
HandshakeLine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Praha, CZ
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 18,257
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
For sure. If my community college ever offers an associates degree in capalogy, I'm getting one so I can apply for a position with the Hawks and act as a double-agent.
Somehow, the Hawks manage to top the record of botched deals under Tallon in the first day of free agency....

HandshakeLine is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:25 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.