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Shake-up?

View Poll Results: oh
fire the coach 29 22.31%
make a trade 33 25.38%
both 52 40.00%
neither? 16 12.31%
Voters: 130. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-16-2013, 05:44 PM
  #151
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Originally Posted by Dicdonya View Post
This is what I have been screaming from the rooftops whenever I can, this team has gone waaaaay too defensive, and now they cannot score goals. The team was flying the eff around earlier this year and has just gotten tighter and tighter as the weeks have passed to where now they cant barely make a pass without pissing their pants that they might make a turnover.

Everyone gets really mad a thornton and clowe for turnovers, but which clowe and thornton were better, the turnover machines of the past who scored crap tons of points, or the "looking for the right time" passers they seem to have become. Clowe obviously has other issues as well, but damn thornton was between the legs passing and all other kinds of crap earlier in the year, have not seen any of those recently. He has reverted to his, sit along the wall, with noone around him because he wont shoot, and then just dump it down low or to the point when someone finally forces him .
True. Too many trying to pretend they are Couture or Joe and Patty and trying to carry the puck in the offensive zone and, not being overly skilled they end up leading to a silly pass or loss of the puck.

Thornton and Patty, like all stars every year, are in a slump and will break out of it at some point. Clowe on the other hand..........

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02-16-2013, 05:49 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Dicdonya View Post
Im sorry if you are talking about just this year, or if you meant the question in a general sense, if my argument is not what you were asking then disregard.

Having said that STL vs SJS last year is as far back as you need to look to find how bad coaching directly corrolates to losses. You cannot lose 8 times to the same team without your coach being completely incapable of devising a new strategy against an opponent that shuts your first strat down. Its not only the blues, we all know at this point that any team that plays the sharks with high speed and super aggressive forechecking (ana this year) will destroy the sharks. This has been happening for a while now, its one thing to blame the players, however with the players we do have Im possitive there is a way to get better results against those types of teams.

Too bad we have a coach that relies on line changes and not strategic changes to try and get things going against teams we cant beat, or when the team is in a funk.

This.

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02-16-2013, 05:52 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Fistfullofbeer View Post
I think trading Thornton would give us the best return. Marleau is a really important to the Sharks but I dont think the rest of the league considers him as 'elite' as Thornton.

Also, I am not sure if either Thornton or Marleau would waive their NTC/NMC.
Maybe fans don't appreciate marleau but I guarantee every GM in the NHL would line up their best offer for Marleau even at his age. Good speed, size and a proven goal scorer and he's a center who's good in the faceoff circle. Isn't he top 3 or 4 in goal scoring over the last 5 years? Yeah GM's consider him elite, no question. Depending on the team many will value marleau over Thornton.

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02-16-2013, 05:55 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by 19sharks19 View Post
True. Too many trying to pretend they are Couture or Joe and Patty and trying to carry the puck in the offensive zone and, not being overly skilled they end up leading to a silly pass or loss of the puck.

Thornton and Patty, like all stars every year, are in a slump and will break out of it at some point. Clowe on the other hand..........
Im not even worried about silly passes or losing the puck if its because they are actually trying to make a play. It pisses me off that we get silly passes and turnovers after having cycled to puck for 30 seconds and just running out of time and space, and having not attempted even once in that 30 seconds to shoot the damn thing or even try to get it to someone who COULD shoot the puck.

All the friggin holding up about 10 feet into the zone and then dumping a pass back to the defender whos not really ready for it has to stop too. Either dump it deep or dump it on net, dont dump it literally 5 feet backwards when there is an opposition player on your ass, thus handicapping your own defender and allowing the other team to get back and into position for when that defender makes a rushed pass somewhere.

Also I really think clowe has been affected hard by the coaching, or really the players have just lost all creativity, I remember clowe used to love being along the boards in a cycle and then just randomly no look shooting the puck on net from the boards, he scored a decent amount off those and definintly caught some defenders and goalies off guard for someone else to put the puck away into the back of the net. I have yet to see clowe try that even once this year, not sure if thats on him, or if hes been "coached" not to try that play.

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02-16-2013, 05:58 PM
  #155
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In the Sharks history have they ever been true "sellers"?

I can't remember a time when it seemed like they needed to move their star players in order to save the future...Maybe when they traded Owen Nolan? But that doesn't really feel the same since they hung onto other guys like Damphousse.

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02-16-2013, 06:01 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Dicdonya View Post
Im not even worried about silly passes or losing the puck if its because they are actually trying to make a play. It pisses me off that we get silly passes and turnovers after having cycled to puck for 30 seconds and just running out of time and space, and having not attempted even once in that 30 seconds to shoot the damn thing or even try to get it to someone who COULD shoot the puck.

All the friggin holding up about 10 feet into the zone and then dumping a pass back to the defender whos not really ready for it has to stop too. Either dump it deep or dump it on net, dont dump it literally 5 feet backwards when there is an opposition player on your ass, thus handicapping your own defender and allowing the other team to get back and into position for when that defender makes a rushed pass somewhere.

Also I really think clowe has been affected hard by the coaching, or really the players have just lost all creativity, I remember clowe used to love being along the boards in a cycle and then just randomly no look shooting the puck on net from the boards, he scored a decent amount off those and definintly caught some defenders and goalies off guard for someone else to put the puck away into the back of the net. I have yet to see clowe try that even once this year, not sure if thats on him, or if hes been "coached" not to try that play.
Yes, so true on those passes to the D. And, no matter which D man it is, it'd be difficult to blame him.

Agree on coaching as well. Much of what is being discussed here, can be connected with the coaching as well. In my duscussions alone, it is Todd whom correlates with much of it.

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02-16-2013, 06:13 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Dicdonya View Post
Im not even worried about silly passes or losing the puck if its because they are actually trying to make a play. It pisses me off that we get silly passes and turnovers after having cycled to puck for 30 seconds and just running out of time and space, and having not attempted even once in that 30 seconds to shoot the damn thing or even try to get it to someone who COULD shoot the puck.

All the friggin holding up about 10 feet into the zone and then dumping a pass back to the defender whos not really ready for it has to stop too. Either dump it deep or dump it on net, dont dump it literally 5 feet backwards when there is an opposition player on your ass, thus handicapping your own defender and allowing the other team to get back and into position for when that defender makes a rushed pass somewhere.

Also I really think clowe has been affected hard by the coaching, or really the players have just lost all creativity, I remember clowe used to love being along the boards in a cycle and then just randomly no look shooting the puck on net from the boards, he scored a decent amount off those and definintly caught some defenders and goalies off guard for someone else to put the puck away into the back of the net. I have yet to see clowe try that even once this year, not sure if thats on him, or if hes been "coached" not to try that play.
I am truly getting sick of how slow the team plays. Its not so much foot speed..its that they glide instead of moving their feet. This team isn't overly fast but they can certainly play faster than they have shown. TMac talks about it..the team talks about it yet all you see is sloppy passes, slow breakouts and puck movement. Something isn't right.

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02-16-2013, 06:16 PM
  #158
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There was an article last year about Sutter taking over the Kings. He eased up on the license and also provided them with breakout strategies. He backed off on criticism of failed breakouts that were a result of taking chances with his strategy. That is offense not defense. The Kings were heavy into the defensive strategy with Murray. The resulting hodgepodge after Sutter came in combined to form the perfect storm.

The year that Boston won with a defense first team was when they had Ramsay and Julien chose or was forced to choose to cut loose with guys like Seguin and Marchand who were certainly not playing defense first. Last year they got more conservative and paid the price. Their blueline is beyond conservative.
Right but you are forgetting that the Blues finished 2nd in the conference, the Yotes made it to the WCF, and I think its even fair to point out that the Devils represented the east. I agree with your conservative idea, Tippet prefers blueliners who can move the puck out of the zone over blueliners who are rocks defensively when they don't have the puck. Right now the sharks are having serious problems moving out of their zone.

But yeah the Sharks don't play like the Kings, but I'm not sure they have the manpower to play like the Kings


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02-16-2013, 06:21 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by 19sharks19 View Post

Add to this, the likes of Irwin did not deserve a demotion.

.
Yes he did... Yeah he looked ok defensively for a rookie and he had a nice shot but he made horrible decisions with the puck, especially in his own zone and the neutral zone. This is problem numero uno with the Sharks.

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02-16-2013, 06:22 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by murdock1116 View Post
In the Sharks history have they ever been true "sellers"?

I can't remember a time when it seemed like they needed to move their star players in order to save the future...Maybe when they traded Owen Nolan? But that doesn't really feel the same since they hung onto other guys like Damphousse.
I think they had a deal in place for Selanne to the Devils but he invoked his NTC.

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02-16-2013, 06:29 PM
  #161
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I think they should keep Joe Thornton but trade marleau for a few guys. Seeing joe fight the other night shows a lot that he still wants to fight for us to win. As much as i enjoy marleau's goals hes just too quiet. I remember seeing him in last years playoffs, right before he stepped onto the ice he pulled a tug on on his chest around his diaphram. He doesnt want to be a shark inside. At least thats what i got from his body language.

And is it just me or do the guys look straight up tired on the ice?

they just look lethargic, i wonder how much tmac is working them in practice?

They really do need drew remenda behind that bench. He has soooooo much passion for them even after all the dissappointments.

Marleau just needs a new team though for reals... I dont believe he can win it with the sharks. It would be good for him.
This is legitimately the funniest post I have ever seen on this forum, and that should say something. Thornton (sort of) fought Toews, although he could have beat him up way worse and didn't seem to be trying much, so he wants to fight to win for us? Yeah, that makes all kinds of sense. You enjoy Marleau's goals but he's two quiet? Yeah, because we pay him for his speeches, not is goalscoring. Marleau tugged on his jersey so he doesn't want to be a Shark inside? What kind of pseudo-psychoanalytics is that? Remenda behind the bench? Do you even remember what a ****** coach he was? You'd honestly prefer a coach that has 'soooooo much passion' even though he blows to a coach that wins?

Oh boy.

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Let's blame Marleau . . . again. I hope they actually do trade him so the problems get worse and then I will be back with a vengeance with the "I told you so's".
In times like these, I feel exactly the same way. I just want us to trade him to a team that can best utilize him and win with him, and I want everyone to realize how much they're missing his zone entries, his board work, his net-front presence, shot, PKing, defensive play, everything that he does outside of scoring goals that no one gives him credit for.

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Originally Posted by Fistfullofbeer View Post
I think trading Thornton would give us the best return. Marleau is a really important to the Sharks but I dont think the rest of the league considers him as 'elite' as Thornton.

Also, I am not sure if either Thornton or Marleau would waive their NTC/NMC.
Thornton would probably waive his clause if the Sharks told him they were going to rebuild. I don't know if Marleau would.

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02-16-2013, 06:32 PM
  #162
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Thornton would probably waive his clause if the Sharks told him they were going to rebuild. I don't know if Marleau would.
Not only would Marleau want to stay, but he would likely still be able to put up high quality top six minutes when the rebuild was finished.

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02-16-2013, 06:36 PM
  #163
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Not only would Marleau want to stay, but he would likely still be able to put up high quality top six minutes when the rebuild was finished.
The reason why Marelau would be worth keeping around, even as he starts to decline, is that he'd still be a solid 2nd liner for a while, and even at the end of his career he'd be a great 3rd liner, considering his speed, defensive play, versatility, and would probably still score a decent amount.

As a tangent, it occurred to me that a good 3rd lines are constructed in a particular way: Older, former top-6 players and younger, future top-6 players. Marleau would be a good fit there.

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02-16-2013, 06:39 PM
  #164
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The reason why Marelau would be worth keeping around, even as he starts to decline, is that he'd still be a solid 2nd liner for a while, and even at the end of his career he'd be a great 3rd liner, considering his speed, defensive play, versatility, and would probably still score a decent amount.

As a tangent, it occurred to me that a good 3rd lines are constructed in a particular way: Older, former top-6 players and younger, future top-6 players. Marleau would be a good fit there.
That and Marleau wouldn't let his ego get in the way from those demotions and he would be an easy re-sign as his contracts would expire. He wouldn't ask for something ridiculous and he would just want a movement clause so he could guarantee his stay. I can see him taking less starting with his next contract even though he hasn't done anything to deserve less than what he currently makes.

It'll be interesting to see what Jumbo does with his contract coming up. Personally, I'd let him walk and let him choose what is important to him. It's going to be much harder for him to accept less, not in terms of money but in terms of a role on the team, than it will for most. He's just that stubborn.

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02-16-2013, 06:39 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
This is legitimately the funniest post I have ever seen on this forum, and that should say something. Thornton (sort of) fought Toews, although he could have beat him up way worse and didn't seem to be trying much, so he wants to fight to win for us? Yeah, that makes all kinds of sense. You enjoy Marleau's goals but he's two quiet? Yeah, because we pay him for his speeches, not is goalscoring. Marleau tugged on his jersey so he doesn't want to be a Shark inside? What kind of pseudo-psychoanalytics is that? Remenda behind the bench? Do you even remember what a ****** coach he was? You'd honestly prefer a coach that has 'soooooo much passion' even though he blows to a coach that wins?

Oh boy.



In times like these, I feel exactly the same way. I just want us to trade him to a team that can best utilize him and win with him, and I want everyone to realize how much they're missing his zone entries, his board work, his net-front presence, shot, PKing, defensive play, everything that he does outside of scoring goals that no one gives him credit for.



Thornton would probably waive his clause if the Sharks told him they were going to rebuild. I don't know if Marleau would.
Yeah really . His jersey probably got caught his chest pad and he was straightening it out.

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02-16-2013, 06:41 PM
  #166
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That and Marleau wouldn't let his ego get in the way from those demotions and he would be an easy re-sign as his contracts would expire. He wouldn't ask for something ridiculous and he would just want a movement clause so he could guarantee his stay. I can see him taking less starting with his next contract even though he hasn't done anything to deserve less than what he currently makes.
I'm so unbelievably torn between wanting Marleau to be a life-time Shark, and wanting him to win a Cup.

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Yeah really . His jersey probably got caught his chest pad and he was straightening it out.
Exactly.

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02-16-2013, 06:43 PM
  #167
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It's going to be much harder for him to accept less, not in terms of money but in terms of a role on the team, than it will for most. He's just that stubborn.
What are you basing his "ego" on?

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02-16-2013, 06:43 PM
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I'm so unbelievably torn between wanting Marleau to be a life-time Shark, and wanting him to win a Cup.
I'm not torn at all. Lifetime Shark. I think him potentially making the hall of fame in large part due to his performance and his career entirely as a Shark would be just as meaningful as him winning a Cup elsewhere. I don't think he gets in if he leaves...and it's a pretty good stretch him getting in even if he stays. Lockout cost him dearly on the games played that he had a good chance at breaking.

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02-16-2013, 06:44 PM
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What are you basing his "ego" on?
PF is Marleau's dad, didn't you know that?

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I'm not torn at all. Lifetime Shark. I think him potentially making the hall of fame in large part due to his performance and his career entirely as a Shark would be just as meaningful as him winning a Cup elsewhere. I don't think he gets in if he leaves...and it's a pretty good stretch him getting in even if he stays. Lockout cost him dearly on the games played that he had a good chance at breaking.
I just want him to shed the "loser" tag that the media gives him. Ideally, he'd come back to the Sharks in his final year and retire here. Hey, I can dream.

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02-16-2013, 06:46 PM
  #170
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What are you basing his "ego" on?
He can't even break himself out of being 'the passer'. Why would he be able to break himself out of being 'the man' that he has been most of his entire career? His game would have to change if he is going to take a lesser role and he's always been difficult when it comes to changing his game.

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02-16-2013, 06:46 PM
  #171
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PF is Marleau's dad, didn't you know that?
It's just weird that people are criticizing Thornton and saying he has a big ego when I haven't read anything of the sort since he became a Shark. And then the same people are calling out Marleau as Mr. Innocent and Mr. Team Player when he had that whole debacle with Ron Wilson (whether it was all RW's fault or not, it still happened).

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He can't even break himself out of being 'the passer'. Why would he be able to break himself out of being 'the man' that he has been most of his entire career? His game would have to change if he is going to take a lesser role and he's always been difficult when it comes to changing his game.
Are we talking about the same Thornton who changed his game from sitting along the half-boards to playing a very good two-way game because he wanted to help the team win?
It just seems like you're basing your argument on a whole lot of nothing.
Not to mention it's a completely different circumstance of "being the man to not being the man". He's been the go-to-guy on the Sharks because he's been the best player on the Sharks. When he gets older, he won't be the best player on the team anymore.

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02-16-2013, 06:51 PM
  #172
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Thornton was already shipped out of Boston and basically told by them that he wasn't going to be "their guy" ... humbling experience #1 .... Boston ends up winning a cup before Thornton ... humbling experience #2.

There is no way Thornton's ego is what you guys postulate it to be.

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02-16-2013, 06:53 PM
  #173
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I'm sure both Marleau and Thornton are "reasonable" at this point in their careers.

I agree with keeping Marleau though. He can play effectively for a long time.

Thornton can probably be effective for a long time too, but probably not with the Sharks. Maybe a slower paced eastern conference team where he can be a 2C for the rest of his career.

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02-16-2013, 06:54 PM
  #174
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
PF is Marleau's dad, didn't you know that?



I just want him to shed the "loser" tag that the media gives him. Ideally, he'd come back to the Sharks in his final year and retire here. Hey, I can dream.
Screw that. lol

He's earned to decide whatever he wants but personally I want him and the team to have that ability to say that they've gotten a career long player to their organization. In this day and age, that is a pain in the ass to do, much less do it at his level with his amount of adversity.

To me, there's just more honor in losing with your team than winning on someone else's.

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02-16-2013, 06:57 PM
  #175
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
Are we talking about the same Thornton who changed his game from sitting along the half-boards to playing a very good two-way game because he wanted to help the team win?
It just seems like you're basing your argument on a whole lot of nothing.
Not to mention it's a completely different circumstance of "being the man to not being the man". He's been the go-to-guy on the Sharks because he's been the best player on the Sharks. When he gets older, he won't be the best player on the team anymore.
And how long did it take for Thornton to change that part of his game? And he still hasn't changed with regards to taking more ownership when it comes to shooting the puck. You can't seriously believe that he hasn't been stubborn for certain things. And I have a hard time believing that a guy that has been catered to for a lot over the years with a known difficulty for changing isn't going to have a hard time seeing his role reduced over time with a team.

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