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Old
02-16-2013, 06:37 PM
  #51
Skobel24
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Originally Posted by MVW View Post
Yes Irving could be better, but he should of been handled better by management to this point as well. I really think Weisbrod needs more control over the Heat or Ward should be let go, what a *** damn mess this is turning into.
I agree with you 100% on this, but not simply because of how Irving was handled.

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02-16-2013, 06:38 PM
  #52
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Disappointing, but saw this coming. He was bad in the AHL this year and bad in the NHL too. He got every opportunity and he didn't deliver.

Leland has quite frankly been a bad goalie for 12 months now. Let's stop making excuses for him and blaming it on "the organization". He's just not very good.

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02-16-2013, 06:40 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Tim Erixons Dad View Post
Disappointing, but saw this coming. He was bad in the AHL this year and bad in the NHL too. He got every opportunity and he didn't deliver.
He wasn't bad at all.

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02-16-2013, 06:42 PM
  #54
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He wasn't bad at all.
Yeah he was. He scrambles all over the place. He mishandles the puck. His rebound control is complete ****. He should have had even more goals scored against him. 3.33 GAA is a generous stat for how he played.

Everyone take off the former first round pick golden boy homer glasses and make an attempt to evaluate Leland for what he is right now: not NHL ready, not even close.

I can't believe a guy who couldn't crack the top-2 on an AHL team is getting so many free passes from the fans. I understanding wanting him to succeed, but he is what he is right now.

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02-16-2013, 06:42 PM
  #55
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Some Joey Mac stats:

YearTeamGPWLOTsv%GAASOMins
2008-09NYI4914266.9013.3712792
2010-11DET15553.9172.581721
2011-12DET14851.9122.160806

There's a reason Feaster wanted him. Heck, I was pissed in 2011-12 when Holland brought back Ty Suck-lin because JMac is a better goalie.

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02-16-2013, 06:43 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Skobel24 View Post
The difference is that Edmonton wasn't in a position where they were a contender, or even a playoff team. They accepted the rebuild, and stuck with it. Playing Dubnyk essentially meant losing games, but slowly developing him.

Calgary isn't, nor have they been in the same situation. Giving a backup 20-30 games a season isn't the right move when you're gunning for playoffs, and you have an elite starter capable of 70+ games a year. As long as this team continues to try to compete, we won't see a backup getting the playing time that Dubnyk got. The only way we do see this, is if someone comes along and proves that they can be outplay Kipper (hopefully Ramo). While Kiprusoff has had a slow start, Irving isn't even close to being the goalie Kipper is.

As for him being demoted, giving Taylor or MacDonald a shot at this point can't hurt. This team is here to compete (or try to, anyways). Part of that means letting the best goalie play.
It's debatable whether Kipper still has the ability to put up an elite performance for that long. And it's a stupid and shortsighted policy to think that because Kipper can play 70 games a season, he should without question do so every season. Because all that does is ensure a tired goalie going into the playoffs, if you even make it all.

Consider Lundqvist with the Rangers who would regularly played over 70 games a season, only to struggle in the playoffs. In the last couple of seasons however, they started playing him less in the regular season, down to a little over 60 games, and all of a sudden, he's doing much better in the playoffs. Look at Brodeur or Thomas, who play 50-60 games in the regular season, but look much sharper in the playoffs.

The reality is, this franchise is run by individuals bereft of common sense or foresight who demand instant results but are too stupid and inept to figure out a way to get them. Okay, it's pretty obvious they've never had any real faith in Irving at any point in time. But do they go out and acquire a legitimate veteran back-up, one that they could depend upon for any length of time, whether through trade or free agency? No, they do nothing.

I think people need to recognize that this organization has no idea what they're doing. They're throwing pens at a wall and hoping somethings sticks. From a long-term perspective, the very best thing that could happen at this point is Iginla asking for a trade, Kipper retiring at the end of the season and Ramo re-signing in Europe or looking miserable if he comes here.

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02-16-2013, 06:45 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Erixons Dad View Post
Yeah he was. He scrambles all over the place. He mishandles the puck. His rebound control is complete ****. He should have had even more goals scored against him. 3.33 GAA is a generous stat for how he played.

Everyone take off the former first round pick golden boy homer glasses and make an attempt to evaluate Leland for what he is right now: not NHL ready, not even close.

I can't believe a guy who couldn't crack the top-2 on an AHL team is getting so many free passes from the fans. I understanding wanting him to succeed, but he is what he is right now.
Right he was terrible and was 2-1-1

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02-16-2013, 06:49 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Tim Erixons Dad View Post
Disappointing, but saw this coming. He was bad in the AHL this year and bad in the NHL too. He got every opportunity and he didn't deliver.

Leland has quite frankly been a bad goalie for 12 months now. Let's stop making excuses for him and blaming it on "the organization". He's just not very good.
That's blatantly false unless you think being declared the 3rd stringer in the AHL before the season even starts is a legit opportunity.

And don't try to pass it off as he's the third stringer because that's what the coaches believe is best, and because they see him the most, they know what's best. Because by that logic, Comeau and Moss are first line centres in the NHL.

He's barely played in the last 12 months. How do you expect anything to happen when he plays one game a month behind Kipper or Taylor/Brust? It's a joke.

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02-16-2013, 06:50 PM
  #59
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Right he was terrible and was 2-1-1
Or, in spite of being terrible, he was 2-1-1.

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02-16-2013, 06:52 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Calculon View Post
It's debatable whether Kipper still has the ability to put up an elite performance for that long.
There is a difference between what he is capable of now, and what he WAS capable of. There is a reason Irving didn't see as much time in the NHL as some goalies at his age have.

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Originally Posted by Calculon View Post
And it's a stupid and shortsighted policy to think that because Kipper can play 70 games a season, he should without question do so every season. Because all that does is ensure a tired goalie going into the playoffs, if you even make it all.
This was something Calgary tried to fix on numerous occasions. We didn't have a young goalie who was capable enough, so Sutter went the FA route. Unfortunately, few of them actually worked out (If any).

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02-16-2013, 06:56 PM
  #61
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He wasn't bad at all.
The Flames dont agree with you....

and apparently the rest of the league as well

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02-16-2013, 07:08 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Skobel24 View Post
There is a difference between what he is capable of now, and what he WAS capable of. There is a reason Irving didn't see as much time in the NHL as some goalies at his age have.
It's actually pretty clear he hasn't had the ability to put up a consistent elite performance game in, game out for 70+ games a season for sometime know. Going all the way back to when the Flames made the playoffs with Playfair and Keenan. He struggled against Detroit (although so did the whole team), struggled against the Sharks to the point he was pulled in game 7, and again struggled with the Hawks. Under Brent Sutter, there were always a few periods where he would completely breakdown.

Goalies don't all develop similarly but the one thing they all need is the opportunity to play. The Flames are too shortsighted to even give their own prospects that opportunity.

Quote:
This was something Calgary tried to fix on numerous occasions. We didn't have a young goalie who was capable enough, so Sutter went the FA route. Unfortunately, few of them actually worked out (If any).
I think saying the Flames tried to fix this is a stretch. Few young goalies are capable of playing one game a month and still put up a consistent performance. Even Schneider struggled mightily when he was first called up to the NHL. All the Flames have tried is quick or cheap fixes.

Darryl stuck with McElhinney even though it was obvious no one had any faith in him. Then he goes out and acquires Karlsson, but again, the team has no faith in him. Then they go with Irving, but make sure to shatter any confidence he might have had first.

The Rangers went out and acquired Biron to back-up Lundqvist. The Devils brought in Hedberg. The Penguins signed Vokoun. Those guys are legitimate back-ups and are paid accordingly. Expecting consistent top-notch goaltending from a backup playing a game a month for less than 1M per season is entirely unrealistic.

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02-16-2013, 07:11 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Skobel24 View Post
Irving may very well be that legitimate starter by then, but he won't become that playing a few games each season. Sending him to Abbotsford is the right move in my opinion.
Playing in Abbotsford wouldn't be a bad thing if he'd get the minutes he needs to develop. That isn't happening so why bother? Maybe they should examine loaning him out to another organization - there has to be somebody out there who'd play him.

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02-16-2013, 07:16 PM
  #64
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I agree with you 100% on this, but not simply because of how Irving was handled.
I always thought that one of the responsibilities of any Assistant GM was to run the development teams.

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02-16-2013, 07:17 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Tim Erixons Dad View Post
Yeah he was. He scrambles all over the place. He mishandles the puck. His rebound control is complete ****. He should have had even more goals scored against him. 3.33 GAA is a generous stat for how he played.

Everyone take off the former first round pick golden boy homer glasses and make an attempt to evaluate Leland for what he is right now: not NHL ready, not even close.

I can't believe a guy who couldn't crack the top-2 on an AHL team is getting so many free passes from the fans. I understanding wanting him to succeed, but he is what he is right now.
He's from Swan Hills - that's 6 or 7 hours north of here.

Have you been watching any games? He hasn't been as bad as you seem to be suggesting.

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02-16-2013, 07:26 PM
  #66
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He's from Swan Hills - that's 6 or 7 hours north of here.

Have you been watching any games? He hasn't been as bad as you seem to be suggesting.
Yup. Maybe if the bloody team could clear the puck properly more often Irving would in better standings. Hartley recognizes that the last game the first goals against were completely on the defence turning the puck over in our own end, and that pulling Irving was to spur the team on. Maybe pulling Irving has made management doubtful if the guy can do the job, which would be a damn shame.

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02-16-2013, 07:46 PM
  #67
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He's from Swan Hills - that's 6 or 7 hours north of here.

Have you been watching any games? He hasn't been as bad as you seem to be suggesting.
I've been watching all the games, and that's just my observation opinion. His 3-4-4 record in the NHL and his other stats seem to be on my side as well. He's not a good NHL-level goalie. No excuses.

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02-16-2013, 07:48 PM
  #68
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Right he was terrible and was 2-1-1
Did the team not spot him like 7 goal in one of those wins? Like I said, his play, record in the NHL, and stats paint the picture. I feel like some of you guys are in denial, how you can't see that he's not a very good goalie right now.

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02-16-2013, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Tim Erixons Dad View Post
Did the team not spot him like 7 goal in one of those wins? Like I said, his play, record in the NHL, and stats paint the picture. I feel like some of you guys are in denial, how you can't see that he's not a very good goalie right now.
His numbers are better then Kipper's should we waive him?

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02-16-2013, 07:52 PM
  #70
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That's blatantly false unless you think being declared the 3rd stringer in the AHL before the season even starts is a legit opportunity.

And don't try to pass it off as he's the third stringer because that's what the coaches believe is best, and because they see him the most, they know what's best. Because by that logic, Comeau and Moss are first line centres in the NHL.

He's barely played in the last 12 months. How do you expect anything to happen when he plays one game a month behind Kipper or Taylor/Brust? It's a joke.
Well maybe he should've played better than Taylor or Brust, that would've been a great first step. But he didn't.

Despite this the Flames gave him a chance in the NHL. Still didn't work out.

How people can just brush this aside as poor asset management when this guy has been performing so poorly for the past 12 months is beyond me. You guys want to see him succeed so badly that you can't see that he's not ready and that he shoulders plenty of blame for this.

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02-16-2013, 07:54 PM
  #71
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His numbers are better then Kipper's should we waive him?
That's such a garbage response and you know it, you are a good poster here with many more posts than me. Kipper has almost a decade of phenomenal play here to back him up. Irving has one solid season in the AHL from a few years ago... that's it.

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02-16-2013, 08:01 PM
  #72
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That's such a garbage response and you know it, you are a good poster here with many more posts than me. Kipper has almost a decade of phenomenal play here to back him up. Irving has one solid season in the AHL from a few years ago... that's it.
So the sample size to start the season is to small to say Kipper is bad but a smaller sample size is more than enough to say that Irving is bad? That is a terrible mentality Irving had a bad game yesterday but other than that hasn't cost us a game yet, why can't we keep him here to see if last game was an anomaly?

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02-16-2013, 08:02 PM
  #73
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Well maybe he should've played better than Taylor or Brust, that would've been a great first step. But he didn't.
How could he have played better than Brust or Taylor if he wasn't even given a fair shot to play?

It's odd how you keep sweeping the fact that he was declared the 3rd stringer, behind Brust and Taylor, before the AHL season even started under rug.

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Despite this the Flames gave him a chance in the NHL. Still didn't work out.

How people can just brush this aside as poor asset management when this guy has been performing so poorly for the past 12 months is beyond me. You guys want to see him succeed so badly that you can't see that he's not ready and that he shoulders plenty of blame for this.
Because it's entirely not true no matter how much you try to interject your own bias and desire for Irving to fail in place of actual facts. He was no way near as bad as you suggest, or your expectations of goalies is entirely unrealistic.

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02-16-2013, 08:07 PM
  #74
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So the sample size to start the season is to small to say Kipper is bad but a smaller sample size is more than enough to say that Irving is bad? That is a terrible mentality Irving had a bad game yesterday but other than that hasn't cost us a game yet, why can't we keep him here to see if last game was an anomaly?
In an 82 game season, maybe we would. This season, there's no time to **** around. We needed Irving to play lights out fast, or we will find someone else who will. This is not his time. Will he get his time here? Doubtful at this point.

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02-16-2013, 08:55 PM
  #75
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The organization has just ruined Irving by sending him down to the AHL. Brust will get the majority of the starts.

And Irving has played well this past few weeks. Some of are being way too critical of Irving, he's only played seven NHL games. What do you expect to see when someone hasn't play a lot in the past twelve months?

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