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NE Prediction: Montreal/Toronto

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Old
07-10-2006, 08:05 PM
  #1
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NE Prediction: Montreal/Toronto

i am wondering what the difference is between the habs and leafs right now, in the eyes of montreal fans. as of today, what core of the habs lineup is pretty much set? how many spots are open for free agents and prospects or minor leaguers?

here's a list for toronto.

definitely on team:

F Alex Ponikarovsky
F Mats Sundin
F Darcy Tucker
F Kyle Wellwood
F Alexander Steen
F Jeff O'Neill
F Nikolai Antropov
F Chad Kilger
F Matthew Stajan
D Pavel Kubina
D Tomas Kaberle
D Bryan McCabe
D Hal Gill
D Carlo Colaiacovo
G Mikael Tellqvist
G Andrew Raycroft

likely to have a spot:

F Ben Ondrus
D Ian White
D Karel Pilar (if healthy)
D Jay Harrison
D Wade Belak
D Staffan Kronwall
G Jean-Sebastien Aubin

question marks:

F John Pohl
F Aleksander Suglobov
F Jeremy Williams

doubtful:

D Brendan Bell
D Andy Wozniewski
D Marc Moro

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07-10-2006, 08:12 PM
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I'm going to post a general warning since it's already been proven time and time again that we can not have a any Hab/leaf threads without it going downhill fast. Stick to hockey or else....

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07-10-2006, 08:13 PM
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Off the top of my head..

The FOR SURES:

Koivu
Higgins
Ryder
Riberio
Kovalev
Plekenec
Perezoghin
Murray
Begin
Bonk

Markov
Komisarak
Rivet
Souray
Boullion
Dandeneault

Huet


Possible forward spots:

Kostitsyn
Downey
Latendresse
Lapierre
Chipchura

Defense is set.


Goalies:

Aebischer
Danis

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07-10-2006, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by montreal View Post
I'm going to post a general warning since it's already been proven time and time again that we can not have a any Hab/leaf threads without it going downhill fast. Stick to hockey or else....
thank you

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07-10-2006, 08:23 PM
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SOLR
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For sure

Koivu
Higgins
Ryder
Ribeiro
A.Kostitsyn->prospect, but sure to play imo.
Kovalev
Plekanec
Perezoghin
Murray
Begin
Bonk
(Downey for the boxing)

Markov
Komisarak
Rivet
Souray
Boullion
Dandeneault
Streit(7th)

Huet

So if Zednik doesnt come back theres 1 more spot, if he does we are full. Z, Aebie are tradefodder atm.

Prospects in order

Grabovski(NHL Suppleant ready at the min, max will force the trade of Ribeiro sooner or later)
------------------
Latendresse (Possible Darkhorse for the final spot with Z done)
Emelin(if transfered)(7-8th D)
Lapierre/Ferland
Chipchura

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07-10-2006, 09:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by your_rogers_bill View Post
i am wondering what the difference is between the habs and leafs right now, in the eyes of montreal fans. as of today, what core of the habs lineup is pretty much set? how many spots are open for free agents and prospects or minor leaguers?

here's a list for toronto.

definitely on team:

F Alex Ponikarovsky
F Mats Sundin
F Darcy Tucker
F Kyle Wellwood
F Alexander Steen
F Jeff O'Neill
F Nikolai Antropov
F Chad Kilger
F Matthew Stajan
D Pavel Kubina
D Tomas Kaberle
D Bryan McCabe
D Hal Gill
D Carlo Colaiacovo
G Mikael Tellqvist
G Andrew Raycroft

likely to have a spot:

F Ben Ondrus
D Ian White
D Karel Pilar (if healthy)
D Jay Harrison
D Wade Belak
D Staffan Kronwall
G Jean-Sebastien Aubin

question marks:

F John Pohl
F Aleksander Suglobov
F Jeremy Williams

doubtful:

D Brendan Bell
D Andy Wozniewski
D Marc Moro
Well from the looks of things, the leafs seem to have deeper skill and playmaking ability than the Habs, while the Habs have the advantage in Defense and speed. Lets be honest, with Sundin, McCabe, Ponikarovski and Steen is going to have lots of skill to and playmaking abilities. But the leafs' D looks kinda sketchy to me. I think that the leafs would do well to sign one good Defensive Defenseman to really anchor their back door.

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07-10-2006, 09:07 PM
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LadyByngJeanRatelle
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I don't see Ferland on any of the lists above.

Where are his chances on making the Habs next year?

He did play a few games for you guys last year right?

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07-10-2006, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by LadyByngJeanRatelle View Post
I don't see Ferland on any of the lists above.

Where are his chances on making the Habs next year?

He did play a few games for you guys last year right?
I'd say it's unlikely he makes the opening night roster.

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Old
07-10-2006, 09:14 PM
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Well from the looks of things, the leafs seem to have deeper skill and playmaking ability than the Habs, while the Habs have the advantage in Defense and speed. Lets be honest, with Sundin, McCabe, Ponikarovski and Steen is going to have lots of skill to and playmaking abilities. But the leafs' D looks kinda sketchy to me. I think that the leafs would do well to sign one good Defensive Defenseman to really anchor their back door.
I will just say I disagree, since I dont want to start a flame war. To me the leafs of today look like the habs 6-7 years ago in the Houle Era, no offensive big potential with a possible surprising production. A group of prospect that doesnt compare to the habs one.(And Hockey Futures agrees) Again, I dont want to brag or anything.

http://hockeysfuture.com/team.php?team=17 (Ranked 5th in the league)
http://hockeysfuture.com/team.php?team=20 (Ranked 20th in the league)

The difference is we are currently integrating our top prospect while you guys are integrating some good prospects. Maybe potential wont mean anything, but if it does, I can see the leafs struggle big time against us. Your D is pretty big and good, that might help the young forwards.

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07-10-2006, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
I will just say I disagree, since I dont want to start a flame war. To me the leafs of today look like the habs 6-7 years ago in the Houle Era, no offensive big potential with a possible surprising production. A group of prospect that doesnt compare to the habs one.(And Hockey Futures agrees) Again, I dont want to brag or anything.

http://hockeysfuture.com/team.php?team=17 (Ranked 5th in the league)
http://hockeysfuture.com/team.php?team=20 (Ranked 20th in the league)

The difference is we are currently integrating our top prospect while you guys are integrating some good prospects. Maybe potential wont mean anything, but if it does, I can see the leafs struggle big time against us. Your D is pretty big and good, that might help the young forwards.

I wouldn't go that far. The way I see it the leafs defense core is better than ours, at lest the top pairing. We have a slight edge at forward...which could be bigger depending on how our young players play.

Don't forget that neither team is done yet. We are both looking for one offensive forward, the leafs may need a role player also. How the teams do from here to training camp may end up deciding which team ends up on top. Although in the long run we have the better prospects.

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07-10-2006, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
To me the leafs of today look like the habs 6-7 years ago in the Houle Era, no offensive big potential with a possible surprising production.
Hmm, I would not make a comparison that bad for the Leafs.

We had no Steen, no Stajan, no Wellwood and no hope a couple years ago.

We also had many injuries, to the point that our 1-2 punch at center was Sergei Zholtok and Craig Darby !

Toronto is just not THAT bad.

And they'll still fight till the end this year. Don't count them out easily...

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07-10-2006, 10:00 PM
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I'm sorry, you've got 10 Ds listed as likely to be playing next year, that just can't be right.

For the comparisons:

- Both teams have question marks in goal. I like what Montreal has better, but that's just me. Montreal has the better backup, and Huet was much better than Raycroft last year. It's conceivable that Huet was a flash in the pan, and Raycroft will rebound to his rookie form, but I think if I was given a choice between Huet/Aebischer/Danis and Raycroft/Tellqvist/Aubin (I hope I got the third one right, the name was slipping me for some reason) I'd go with what the habs have.

- The D I give to Toronto. They have a better top 3, while I say Montreal has the better 4-6. The leafs also have a good number of guys who could step into their bottom pairing next year, so if they get the right guys in there, their D could really be lethal.

- The forwards...I'm sorry, I call this a big win for Montreal. Sundin is still the best player on either team, but once you get past him Toronto is starting to look really shaky. Steen and Tucker are both decent, but not any better than 2nd liners on a good team right now imo (give Steen credit for being capable of becoming more as the season goes on) and Wellwood isn't that far behind, but after that it's really dicey. O'Neill could turn things around, but I don't think the new NHL agrees with him. After that, it's just guys like Antropov, Poni, Kilger, etc, and I think Montreal can easily best what is offered there. In terms of speed and talent I think the group of Koivu, Kovalev, Perezhogin, Plekanec, Higgins, Zednik, Ribeiro and Ryder have the clear edge. I give the edge to Montreal in terms of depth too. The only trouble I have with Montreals offence is they are relying heavily on youngsters like Higgins, Plekanec, Perezhogin and Kostitsyn (or maybe Latendresse or Grabovsky) to produce, which is risky.

So in the end I give the edge to Montreal, with the big differences being the skill, speed and depth up front. Montreal also have (rough numbers here) around 9 million left to sign Aebischer, Ryder and Perezhogin, which should leave 5ish million they can use to improve the team.

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07-10-2006, 10:07 PM
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Well from the looks of things, the leafs seem to have deeper skill and playmaking ability than the Habs, while the Habs have the advantage in Defense and speed. Lets be honest, with Sundin, McCabe, Ponikarovski and Steen is going to have lots of skill to and playmaking abilities. But the leafs' D looks kinda sketchy to me. I think that the leafs would do well to sign one good Defensive Defenseman to really anchor their back door.
Deeper skill and playmaking abilities? You mean with such noted puck magicians as Ponikarovsky, Kilger and Gill?

In fact I think it's just the opposite - Montreal has lots more skill depth, particular at forward.

Kovalev = Sundin
Koivu > Steen
Ryder > O'Neill
Higgins = Tucker
Ribeiro = Wellwood
Zednik > Antropov
Plekanec = Stajan
Perezhogin > Suglabov
Murray > Ondrus
Bonk > Ponikarovsky
Kostitsyn > Williams
Begin > Pohl

On defence I like Toronto's top three a little more than Montreal's top three, but I like Montreal's bottom four a lot more than Toronto's bottom four - pretty much even.

In nets, that's harder to predict. If Raycroft plays like he did in 2003-04 and Huet proves to be a one-season-wonder, the Leafs will be close to the Habs in the standings. If Raycroft and Huet play like they did last season, the Leafs won't even be close.

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07-10-2006, 10:17 PM
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Well from the looks of things, the leafs seem to have deeper skill and playmaking ability than the Habs, while the Habs have the advantage in Defense and speed. Lets be honest, with Sundin, McCabe, Ponikarovski and Steen is going to have lots of skill to and playmaking abilities. But the leafs' D looks kinda sketchy to me. I think that the leafs would do well to sign one good Defensive Defenseman to really anchor their back door.
the maple leafs defence is the one thing that's far and away better than Montreal's. i think montreal's offence is better, goaltending is a toss up.

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07-10-2006, 10:41 PM
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I wouldn't go that far. The way I see it the leafs defense core is better than ours, at lest the top pairing. We have a slight edge at forward...which could be bigger depending on how our young players play.

Don't forget that neither team is done yet. We are both looking for one offensive forward, the leafs may need a role player also. How the teams do from here to training camp may end up deciding which team ends up on top. Although in the long run we have the better prospects.
Tlusty is the only one that can match A.Kostitsyn potential and hes 2-3 years away. If you compare what we have coming to what Toronto have coming theres a really big difference. S.Kost,Grabovski, Price, Chipchura, Fischer are all players Toronto has no match for on their depth chart, the rest is at least as good as theirs. The last 2-3 years of giving away all their draft picks cost their concession dearly, maybe it wont show this year, but in 2-3 years time, the difference will be apparent imo. If there are risks on our sides, theres are even more risks on Toronto side since they are not even well evaluated concession depth wise. If one of our propects flop, its no big deal, but when you are thin it is a big deal.

The leafs defense is paid more than its current value and the contrary is true for Montreal. I agree theres a small difference(1 top pairing D) in quality at the moment in favor in Toronto. But thats still just paper. On the ice, against a fast team like the habs I dont how that big but not so fast D will do. On the powerplay they will be scary D wise.

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07-10-2006, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by turnbuckle View Post
Kovalev = Sundin
Koivu > Steen
Ryder > O'Neill
Higgins = Tucker
Ribeiro = Wellwood
Zednik > Antropov
Plekanec = Stajan
Perezhogin > Suglabov
Murray > Ondrus
Bonk > Ponikarovsky
Kostitsyn > Williams
Begin > Pohl
I agree with all of these, except that one.

Poni scored 20 goals last year and is improving every year. He plays a solid two way game, is very physical, fast and has a cannon shot.

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07-10-2006, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by LadyByngJeanRatelle View Post
I agree with all of these, except that one.

Poni scored 20 goals last year and is improving every year. He plays a solid two way game, is very physical, fast and has a cannon shot.
Higgins doesn't equal Tucker either...those are the main two I disagree. I dislike tucker as much as the next guy, but he is a valuable player.

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07-11-2006, 12:16 PM
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Higgins doesn't equal Tucker either...those are the main two I disagree. I dislike tucker as much as the next guy, but he is a valuable player.
what?i was thinking about those 2 as well but the opposite, Higgins is a solid 2-way player while Tucker is a good pest who scores from time to time, had one great year..

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07-11-2006, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by turnbuckle View Post
Deeper skill and playmaking abilities? You mean with such noted puck magicians as Ponikarovsky, Kilger and Gill?

In fact I think it's just the opposite - Montreal has lots more skill depth, particular at forward.

Kovalev = Sundin
Koivu > Steen
Ryder > O'Neill
Higgins = Tucker
Ribeiro = Wellwood
Zednik > Antropov
Plekanec = Stajan
Perezhogin > Suglabov
Murray > Ondrus
Bonk > Ponikarovsky
Kostitsyn > Williams
Begin > Pohl

On defence I like Toronto's top three a little more than Montreal's top three, but I like Montreal's bottom four a lot more than Toronto's bottom four - pretty much even.

In nets, that's harder to predict. If Raycroft plays like he did in 2003-04 and Huet proves to be a one-season-wonder, the Leafs will be close to the Habs in the standings. If Raycroft and Huet play like they did last season, the Leafs won't even be close.

fair assesment except, sundin is better then kovalev, wellwood is better then ribero, and I think antropov, stajan and tucker, as of now, are better then the players you mentioned, people forget tucker had 28 goales and 31 assists....

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07-11-2006, 01:02 PM
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Kovalev = Sundin
Koivu > Steen
Ryder > O'Neill
Higgins > Tucker
Ribeiro < Wellwood
Zednik > Antropov
Plekanec < Stajan
Perezhogin > Suglabov
Murray > Ondrus
Bonk < Ponikarovsky
Kostitsyn > Williams
Begin > Pohl

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07-11-2006, 01:27 PM
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The two teams were pretty close last season at the tail end (3 points), but the Leafs accumulating all those points in the last 12 games counts for jack ***** when considering that there was no pressure on them. Their season was basically over after the thumping they took in Montreal.

We can sit there and and do a <>= on every single player between each team for the rest of the summer, but we all know a good hockey team is never the sum of it's parts.

However, what you can do is look at the three positions as a whole and decide how they rank.

Defense: Leafs have better top 3 (at least in terms of putting up points), but Habs have better 4 to 6. The Habs have more speed out of the back end. Right now it's even. I would have given the Leafs the advantage if they had not signed Hal Gill. He ruins the top 3. Plain and simple, he is a negative.

Goaltending: Habs have the Leafs beat no matter how you slice it. Huet / Aebi out rank whatever sieve the Leafs decide to go with. As of right now, if Huet falters we still have Aebi. If Raycroft falters (or remains like he was last year), the Leafs have Tellqvist. There is a big difference there.

Offense --

Leafs had more goals last season, but that's because of an outstanding powerplay, not because they had more talent up front. They have lost Allison who was their second leading point getter amongst forwards. His production still needs to be replaced. We were supposed to see more skill and speed added to the lineup but that has yet to happen. In the end, the Leafs remain slow and soft at the forward position.

Habs have the same group as last season. The skill level and speed are both there, but maturity level remains a concern throughout the lineup. If we acquire another couple of scorers (and I think we will with the cap room available), the Habs definitely have the advantage.

I dont know how to rank either team's offense as of right now since both have noted question marks.

Since goaltending makes all the difference, Habs are better.

As far as I am concerned, the Leafs remain the worst of the Canadian teams. That is what I stated last off-season (and I was right) and that is the case again this off-season.

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07-11-2006, 01:31 PM
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I will also like to add who the team lost. Losing Domi, Khavanov, Berg and Allison makes us a better team. Adding Kubina and even Gill with the loses of the other players makes us an even better team.

Just another way to look at it

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07-11-2006, 01:33 PM
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I will also like to add who the team lost. Losing Domi, Khavanov, Berg and Allison makes us a better team. Adding Kubina and even Gill with the loses of the other players makes us an even better team.

Just another way to look at it
i agree i think you guys have a better team, as does montreal though, but it will all come to goaltending

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07-11-2006, 01:41 PM
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I will also like to add who the team lost. Losing Domi, Khavanov, Berg and Allison makes us a better team. Adding Kubina and even Gill with the loses of the other players makes us an even better team.

Just another way to look at it

and we all thought that losing Juneau, Dackell, Quintal, etc off the 2003-2004 team and replacing them with other NHL veterans like Bonk, Kovalev for a full year, and prospects from the farm would automatically lead to more success. The Habs went from a 93 point / 2nd round team to a 93 point / 1st round team.

I still want to know how losing Allison makes you a better team. He was still your second leading point getter from the forwards. 60+ points while missing 15 games is nothing to sneeze at. Who is replacing his scoring?


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07-11-2006, 02:06 PM
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and we all thought that losing Juneau, Dackell, Quintal, etc off the 2003-2004 team and replacing them with other NHL veterans like Bonk and prospects from the farm would automatically lead to more success. The Habs went from a 93 point / 2nd round team to a 93 point / 1st round team.

I still want to know how losing Allison makes you a better team. He was still your second leading point getter from the forwards. 60+ points while missing 15 games is nothing to sneeze at. Who is replacing his scoring?
The team played better without him, he is horrible in his own end and is very slow for the new NHL, he consistenly turned the puck over also.

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